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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
My double goes to Africa Updated 01.09.07
      #69065 - 08/01/07 08:28 AM

As promised the first of the pictures of this build.

The gun has been stripped and the action dismantled, cleaned up and re-blued.
The barrels cut off before the monoblock and awaiting faceing.
The drawings of the barrels have gone off to Lilja tonight and I await their quote.
I have done the calc's on the barrel weights and it appears that the finished rifle should weigh 10 1/2 - 11 lbs.





Don't have a milling machine at home, so ..
First machine a tapered mandral on the face plate


Checking for a perfect fit. Lots of 600 grade try and try again.


Sucess, now a little jig to hold it in position
.

Won't bore you with the very painstaking clean up but here she is finished. Now just a wait for the US state department to clear myweapon of material destruction barrels for export. And bless you Dan Lilja for doing this so promptly.



Regards

Well Lilja came through for me and after the usual customs delays I am the proud owner to two superbly machined barrels. Thanks to them and the work is first class.

Breach threaded.


Turning up the barrel stubs and threading them for the breach assembly.




Barrels fitted into breach block.



Fit viewed from breach end and three photos of the barrels assembled.








Now I have to decide on the finished barrel length.

Suggestions please ??

Regards

Edited by Bramble (03/09/07 12:48 AM)

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Rusty
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: Bramble]
      #69078 - 08/01/07 10:17 AM

You need proper 26" barrels. All else is Heresy! Get a rope!

Seriously, go with 26" barrels. You will not regret the way the rifle points and handles with longer barrels!

Just my opine!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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tinker
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: Bramble]
      #69079 - 08/01/07 10:19 AM

Wire it together with rib material and sights, see how it balences first.
Then trim to balance it.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: tinker]
      #69082 - 08/01/07 10:43 AM

Thanks for the photos. Very interesting. Kepp them up if you can as you progress.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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heavydane
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: NitroX]
      #69246 - 10/01/07 09:01 PM

Hi,

Very nice pictures indeed.
Just starting a project of my own and wondering if there is any advantage to the "thread and solder method" over threads all the way? Have Ellisīs book and other reference material but can not find any reason for choosing one over the other!
My build is a German 16CAL that eventually will end up as a 450/400 3".


Any thoughts or ideas are most welcome.
Stig

Edited by heavydane (12/01/07 04:45 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: heavydane]
      #69298 - 11/01/07 11:09 AM

My rational is that the process of cutting the thread reduces the wall thickness of the existing barrel by .075" which is not insignificant.
Because what is left of the old chamber has a taper from breach toward the muzzle end of the chamber of .004, when soldered in it is also effectivly wedged by a greater thickness of solder at the breach end than the front of the chamber given that the new barrel stub is paralell.
I see the threading then as more a convenient locator and means of centralisation than a method of fixture. Without threadind some portion it would be much more difficult to solder and centralise the barrels.
I cant see this shooting loose in normal use.

Have you any pictures of your project??

I bought a Powell back action ( 1910's ??) sidelock 12 bore the other day as a possible light double project if this one works out, but that will need lump as well as it is well off the face but it was cheep.
If I do make this one it may be all threaded as there will be more meat to start with and I have more control over thread sizes etc.

Regards and good luck

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heavydane
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: Bramble]
      #69387 - 13/01/07 01:20 AM

Thank You for a very good explanation, I was thinking full threaded but might have to rethink!
No pictures yet as I am just getting started. Getting the barrels home is going to take a while as You know.
A very good friend of mine will do most of the machining since he is a pro and I am not!

Regards
Stig

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Bramble
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: heavydane]
      #69723 - 18/01/07 11:23 AM



Here are the barrels chambered.

For those contemplating building similar a note.
I have a big heavy Harrison L5 lathe and have constructed through the barrel high pressure lubrication, the reamer is held in a floating reamer holder. Even with this it was a long and painstaking reaming job. I do not think that IMHO I would like to attempt it on a lighter machine or one without the force fed lubrication. If you are building similar without the large kit, then I would suggest that you have a good machine shop short chamber the barrels for you. I have seen articles with reamers held in tap wrench type arrangments and pushed by the tail stock, I think that with the torque I felt the machine using it would be a good way to loose a finger or two and or screw up the barrels.

I used the oppertunity to use the barrels as a mandral to enlarge the old 12 guage rim cut so that I can fit a ring on soldering up.

Regards

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Updated My 450 No.2 build for those who asked [Re: Bramble]
      #69749 - 19/01/07 01:01 AM

I am currently working on my fourth conversion, a .450 #2 NE. I use the thread and solder method because I believe that it is inherently stronger than threading alone. The threads, of necessity, must have some clearance between the male and female threads, in order for them to function. A good medium temperature solder, I use Hi-Force from Brownells, will fill all of these voids left by the machining process and I believe results in a stronger, more homogeneous assembly. I "pre-tin" both the barrel shank and the mono-block, using the recommended flux, then wash everything thouroughly with hot water and soap, to remove the acid, before final assembly. Without pre-tinning, it is virtually impossible to get the solder to flow by capillary action and achieve 100% coverage. The heat required, will cause too much oxidation of the steel, long before you achieve that coverage.

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Bramble
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22.01 [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #70016 - 23/01/07 11:35 AM




Finished the rough work on the new extractor this weekend. Yes that is layout dye, I don't intend to have the only purple double in christendom. :-)

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Bramble
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31.01 [Re: Bramble]
      #70555 - 31/01/07 11:15 AM

Well the time came to solder the barrels in. Tinned the barrel stubs and went to tin the inside of the breach block. This was not the time to discover that it was hard chromed was it !!!???
Much swearing and honeing later the deed is done. The barrels are in the filler rings are sweated in and the whole lot filed and honed to the action face.



Now for the almost irrisistable childish bit, put it all together loosley and take some pics for you lot here.




I dont like the forend. The existing buttstock is an ok if plain peice of wood but with a good grain through the hand. I dont like the forend at all it is just too bulky and dosent look elegant.
What say you??

REgards

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bulldog563
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Bramble]
      #70570 - 31/01/07 06:17 PM

If it were mine I would make it a splinter fore end.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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Marrakai
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Re: 31.01 [Re: bulldog563]
      #70574 - 31/01/07 09:16 PM

Bramble:
Chrome plating can be easily stripped out of shotgun bores by plugging the muzzles, then filling with a 25% sodium hydroxide solution. A naked wire is suspended in the barrel and a 250 milli-amp current run through it.

PS:
I just found this link, which gives a more reliable recipe but says the fumes are toxic (knew that) and that the resulting solution must be disposed of as toxic waste (didn't know that!).

http://www.nmfrc.org/crarchive/jun02b.cfm


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (31/01/07 09:17 PM)

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mickey
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Marrakai]
      #70586 - 01/02/07 02:02 AM

Quote:

Bramble:
Chrome plating can be easily stripped out of shotgun bores by plugging the muzzles, then filling with a 25% sodium hydroxide solution. A naked wire is suspended in the barrel and a 250 milli-amp current run through it.

PS:
I just found this link, which gives a more reliable recipe but says the fumes are toxic (knew that) and that the resulting solution must be disposed of as toxic waste (didn't know that!).

http://www.nmfrc.org/crarchive/jun02b.cfm




Never wondered why the wife's flowers died overnight?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Bramble
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Re: 31.01 [Re: mickey]
      #70611 - 01/02/07 10:43 AM

Marrakki,

Thanks for that, it is well worth knowing for the future. It apparently can also be removed with a barrel hone and a great deal of bad temper!!! Guess how I know that?!?

The article does not say if the wire is to be the anode or cathode. Do you know?

Bulldog.

Yes I hate the origional beavertail foreend. I think that a splinter is the thing. I did that to a Biaikal 28 guage that I bought filed the action and cleaned up, came out quite sweet. Just wantedsome outside imput before I attack it.

Another update soon before she goes for provisional proof.

Regards

Edited by Bramble (01/02/07 10:46 AM)

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Bramble]
      #70886 - 06/02/07 12:12 PM

Well the extractors are fitted and the final headspacing has been done.




I have fitted the barrels together at the muzzle and rehung the forend. The rifle weighs in at 10 1/4 lbs at the moment and balances nicley near the hinge pin.



Thursday is the day. Have booked it into the London proof house for provisional proof. A very reasonable Ģ 28.00 and nice people to deal with. They are going to let me witness the actual proof firing to assuage my curiosity.

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banzaibird
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Bramble]
      #70895 - 06/02/07 01:16 PM

Bramble,

Take pictures of theproofing if you can, both before and after. Or during if your feeling cheeky .That would make a neat series of pics for this thread.

Also what action did you use. I looked back and you simply said an old action that's available. What is it and original gauge if you don't mind?

Good luck and keep us posted.

Bill

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Bramble
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Re: 31.01 [Re: banzaibird]
      #70947 - 07/02/07 10:23 AM

In the end I used a modern Zabala 31/2" magnum 12 guage action.
I was going to use a sidelock that I have but I have some issues with it between the seller and I and I was keen to get on and try this first project.

I will try to take pictures but this is one of those worthy 300 year old institutions and I may end up in the Tower of London

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Double_Trouble
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Bramble]
      #71042 - 09/02/07 02:46 AM

Bramble:
because it is one of those 300 year old venerable institutions.... all the more reason to take some pics (if you can).

If you end up in the "tower" send out some smoke and we will storm it and cut you loose!

would be interesting to some shots of that prrof house!

thanks
DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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Bramble
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #71144 - 10/02/07 12:47 PM

Unfortunatly no photographs allowed :-(


HOWEVER.

I am now the owner officially of a .450" 2 Sleeved 3500 BAR

As that is what is stamped on the lumps.

It was an interesting experience. The test itself consisting of taking two of my heavy crimp maximum reloads and librially oiling the cartridges and firing them in a test room that resembles the entrence to Dantes inferno with a huge ammount of powder residue on everything.
A nicer bunch of people you could not hope to meet by the way, they let me observe all that was going on and made me a cup of tea to drink whilst wandering around their workshop.
They also decided that the test was sufficient for definitive proof and that I did not need to return the rifle after the ribs were added.

I enquired of course just what additional strain the oiling of the cartridges puts on the action and I was assured that it was in excess of 30%. I was told with some undisguised pride that the same proceedure had recently pushed a .600 by a well known manufacturer off the face. This was before they fired my humble effort (gulp). The excess pressure produced was sufficient to force the primers to extrude into the firing pin holes 0.0085" to the extent that a burr could be removed from the primer with a fingernail on examination.

Now to regulate her and affix some sights and ribs.

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banzaibird
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Bramble]
      #71149 - 10/02/07 01:06 PM

Congratulations, Pics would have been nice of course but I really wouldn't have wanted to see you in the Tower .

Interesting that they used your loads. I figured they would have made up their own. So did they measure the action before and after?

Sounds like quite a day.

Keep us posted on the progress.

Bill

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Bramble
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Re: 31.01 [Re: banzaibird]
      #71151 - 10/02/07 01:32 PM

Hi Bill

Yes, originally they asked me to bring primed cases and heads along and said that they would make up blackpowder loads for proof?! as these would stress the action. I can only presume that this is due to the pressure curve, or that they have data for the blackpowder loads that they consider more reliable than the nitro powders.
In the event however I had 480 grain woodleigh solids and they dident want to put blackpowder behind a jacketed head hence the use of my rounds which I had incidentally only brought along as I was going to be cheeky and ask them to test fire them as well in the gun, as they are an extrapolation of the data in A squares manual. A square use 113.5 of H 4831 behind a 465 gn head. I was loaded at 111.5 behind a 480 gn head with a pinch of filler. I was nervous of this as I have never inserted filler in a cartridge before.
It was as you say quite a day . I have had little free time from my business and having booked this day off weeks ago we got 4" of snow overnight and the centre of london was a relative gohst town at 8.30 am. It took me an hour to do a 20 minute journey.

Regards Mark

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Rusty
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Re: 31.01 [Re: Bramble]
      #71457 - 14/02/07 08:14 AM

Bramble,
Thanks for the ongoing episodes of making the rifle! I find them facinating. I hope to be able to put a double together in my shop someday! Congratulations!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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Bramble
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18.02.07 [Re: Rusty]
      #71905 - 19/02/07 11:19 AM

Hi everybody

This weekend saw the manufacture and installation of the quater rib and the rear sight. I used an express sight availible from Brownalls with one fixed and 1 folding leaf. It appeared not disimilar to others that I have seen on double guns and I am quite pleased with the result.




I also constructed a device that I hope will allow me to simplfy the regulation. Now this is very much an experiment so I am covering myself if it dosent work!!
The difficulty that I have is range time at ranges that are rated for this calibre of gun. They are few and far between and most are under the control of people that may not be entirly happy with the arrival of my blowtorch and workmate stand.
The device can be viewed as a figure of 8 laid horisontal. The left hand ring is a solder fit to the LH barrel. I have welded the two sections together with sufficient space so that the RH ring has 2mm of clearence all around the RH barrel with both of the barrels boresighted to the same spot. I then drilled and tapped for 4 diagonally opposed set screws. I also fitted a tempoary front sight. I put all the set screws into their centre positions and slid the assembly onto the LH barrel and soldered it in place.
The theory is this. I shoot and dial in the RH barrel to coincide with the left and lock the settings tight. I then take it back to the shop and make the perminent front sight a solder fit to both barrels and join them up.


I then unsweat the device and then cut it off of the barrels. It is sacrificed but as it only took 1/2 an hour to make that is no great loss. If nothing moves ( and it shouldent) then I hope that it will not effect the regulation. Heres praying!!??

Regards

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4seventy
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Re: 18.02.07 [Re: Bramble]
      #71927 - 19/02/07 04:22 PM

Bramble,
Great photos mate!
It is very interesting following these projects and being able to watch them come together.
Thanks for sharing.

Regarding your regulating method, I've seen this done on a few doubles here in Oz.
It can work, that's for sure, and I personally know of at least one double that is a very good shooter which was regulated with a similar device to yours.
There can be problems associated with this method as well of course.
I hope it works well for you and please keep those great photos coming!

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