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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70
#379472 - 20/09/23 08:29 AM

G'Day all,

I have a Sabatti DR in 45/70 and am looking at having it re-regulated.

The wedge has fallen out and it is currently crossing over around 50M. The left barrel is printing just to the right and high of the right barrel at 50M. I need to confirm at 100M but previously one was on the black (T5 target) and one was on the left edge, around the two/one ring.

Are there any Aussie smiths who will do this?

Am I going to wince when I see the price

I am using a 405 HRBC hardcast proj on 34gr of 2207 for about 1400fps.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379476 - 20/09/23 09:17 AM

Tony, do you have the wedge?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4915
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379479 - 20/09/23 10:41 AM

There were a couple in Vic that use to do that sort of work, I think. I'll see if I can dig their names up. From memory one use to be in Lilydale.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Rule303]
#379481 - 20/09/23 11:53 AM

Kevin Sharp may be able to do it

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#379482 - 20/09/23 12:50 PM

Quote:

Tony, do you have the wedge?

No unfortunately, I did cut a new one and place it in gently just to hold things in place.

It hasnt changed anything but hopefully will stop it getting worse.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Rule303]
#379483 - 20/09/23 12:50 PM

Quote:

There were a couple in Vic that use to do that sort of work, I think. I'll see if I can dig their names up. From memory one use to be in Lilydale.

Thanks that would be appreciated.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379484 - 20/09/23 12:51 PM

Quote:

Kevin Sharp may be able to do it

Would you have a contact number for him?

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379491 - 20/09/23 04:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Kevin Sharp may be able to do it

Would you have a contact number for him?

03 - 9739 1068

Located in Coldstream, Vic.

A good double barrelled gunsmith.

You'll have to ask re regulation.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Hunter4752001
.300 member

Reged: 25/01/10
Posts: 124
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379494 - 20/09/23 05:05 PM

I think Kevin moved his business down to Bairnsdale, possibly 03 51526999

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Hunter4752001]
#379496 - 20/09/23 05:20 PM

Thanks Gents.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4915
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Hunter4752001]
#379515 - 21/09/23 07:04 AM

Quote:

I think Kevin moved his business down to Bairnsdale, possibly 03 51526999

Kevin was one of the blokes I was thinking of and yes, last I heard he had moved to Bairnsdale.

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m239
.275 member

Reged: 13/09/17
Posts: 52
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Rule303]
#379526 - 21/09/23 07:11 PM

Rodd Flower is in Vic, near Bendigo.

Does all the Perazzi warranty work and has built a few doubles - I've seen a completed one and one that was a WIP.

His YT videos on the build process and regulation are good viewing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuKIriYabWs

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m239
.275 member

Reged: 13/09/17
Posts: 52
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: m239]
#379527 - 21/09/23 07:13 PM

Rob Bloomfield on Sunshine Coast is another option

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: m239]
#379529 - 21/09/23 08:13 PM

Tags #gunsmiths #doublegunsmiths #doubleriflegunsmiths #regulation

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379586 - 24/09/23 07:15 AM

Thanks all,

I have sent messages to all and will see what comes back.

So far Rodd Flower is a no but he had another name for me, Rodney Hotham in Tamworth (a bit closer than VIC).

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379602 - 25/09/23 05:55 PM

Apparently, Kevin Sharp is not taking on any more work and is retiring soon.

I am waiting on responses from Rob and Rodney, fingers crossed.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

Edited by TonyD227 (25/09/23 05:58 PM)

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m239
.275 member

Reged: 13/09/17
Posts: 52
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379603 - 25/09/23 06:06 PM

Hey Tony - another option is Rolf Bachnick - in Lilydale, Vic.

Not sure if it's something he would be interested in doing - but his work quality on 2 projects for me has been to a high standard and reasonably prompt.

May be worth a call - although I've just Goolged him and Google says he is 'permanently closed' ;-(

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: m239]
#379604 - 25/09/23 07:10 PM

Big worry if all double gun and rifle smiths retire.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379605 - 25/09/23 07:11 PM

Alex Beer is young enough. He needs to come back to gunsmithing and gunmaking.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379608 - 25/09/23 08:38 PM

I am also trying a Ralf Douner.

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When to much recoil is just not enough.

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Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4915
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379631 - 26/09/23 06:56 AM

Quote:

Alex Beer is young enough. He needs to come back to gunsmithing and gunmaking.

Alex did exceptional work.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: m239]
#379636 - 26/09/23 07:50 AM

Hey Tony - another option is Rolf Bachnick - in Lilydale, Vic.

Sent him a message, fingers crossed.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

Edited by TonyD227 (26/09/23 07:51 AM)

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Hunter4752001
.300 member

Reged: 25/01/10
Posts: 124
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379637 - 26/09/23 08:34 AM

I don't think Rolf Bachnick is actually "permanently closed". I think he has only closed his landline is now relying on his mobile 0400815483. As of earlier this year he was still advertising his services. Worth a call to confirm one way or the other.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Hunter4752001]
#379640 - 26/09/23 03:31 PM

Ralph Babnich of course many know made Marrakai's and 264's Fat Lady .577 LNE Greener Empire double rifle conversion.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379642 - 26/09/23 04:07 PM

I found a business that will regulate a DR https://custom37.com/

They are in Tamworth so a lot closer for me to.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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m239
.275 member

Reged: 13/09/17
Posts: 52
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379647 - 26/09/23 07:30 PM

Well done Tony - keen to hear how it goes.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: m239]
#379650 - 26/09/23 07:37 PM

We need an Australian gunsmith contacts list on NE. And specialities.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4915
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#379661 - 27/09/23 07:52 AM

Quote:

We need an Australian gunsmith contacts list on NE. And specialities.

That is a good idea.

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m239
.275 member

Reged: 13/09/17
Posts: 52
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Rule303]
#379666 - 27/09/23 09:43 AM

great idea

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: m239]
#379861 - 05/10/23 08:51 PM

I am taking the Sabatti to Tamworth tomorrow.

I will let you all know how it goes.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#379868 - 05/10/23 10:25 PM

All the best Tony, hope the job goes well!

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: 93x64mm]
#379900 - 08/10/23 04:20 PM

Dropped it off yesterday and had a chat.

He is off OS soon and won't get to work on it until he gets back in 3 weeks.

He does the warranty work for Perazzi shotguns and is off to their factory.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#380924 - 04/12/23 08:08 PM

Job hasnt been done yet.

Probably be a couple more weeks.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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93x64mm
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Posts: 3987
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#380936 - 05/12/23 06:45 AM

Would be a nice Christmas pressie if it did!

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: 93x64mm]
#381229 - 14/12/23 03:33 PM

It looks like I am getting my Christmas present

I got this email today:

The barrels are now soaking in protective oils. Due to the vagaries of the calibre and nature of thin European barrels it took 2 visits to the range and 2 regulation blocks to get the barrels converging past normal regulation of 65m. All shooting is done off hand and we achieved a free hand shot spread at 100m of 150m. Obviously the sights are very difficult to be accurate with but we were fairly pleased with the outcome. The rifle still shoots high and really could do with a higher front (not practicable) or higher rear (no more adjustment left).

That said, I am sure you can be fairly accurate once you are sure of its impact points.

Thank you for the work and attached is the invoice. I was able to bring the regulation in lower than originally thought and then there is the blacking/ finishing and consumables to be catered for.

It was $1,176.

I asked if he had any targets but haven't heard back from him and I am assuming the 150m at 100m is a typo and its prob 150mm? I am also a little confused about the comment on front and back sights could be higher (if its shooting high I would have thought higher front or lower rear?).

I have paid the invoice and so hopefully will get it before Christmas and I will let you know how I go with some tests at various ranges.

If you're wondering about the sights the rear is a Skinner adjustable ring sight that Andy Larsson made for me (he owns a Sabatti DR as well). The front is a tall post with a brass bead set in the top.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

Edited by TonyD227 (14/12/23 03:35 PM)

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381240 - 14/12/23 07:43 PM

I'd hope for better than six inches at a hundred metres if having the barrels reregulated. Assuming the 150 m at 100 m was that.

For a .45/70 I guess its usable though, as its not a long range rifle.

How does each barrel group? If they group far better, the angling of the barrels to make them coincide should be done.

Hope it works out for you.

PS yes get copies of pictures of the "groups" before they finish everything up.

PPS Im thinking the 6 inches is a completely off hand shooting group at 100 metres. The free hand, unsupported etc comments. I think a supported hand on a rest would be used for testing shooting a regulating rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (14/12/23 07:46 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#381248 - 15/12/23 05:20 AM

6" offhand would be just fine for a group with a DR. BUT - what is the load?
Is it a deer load only?
I've not seen ANY factory ammo that was worth a hoot as far as power is concerned.
There was an outfit in the USA who made some decent .45/70 ammo, but haven't heard of them lately.
IIRC they had a 400gr. solid and soft running 1,900fps or so.
My Pedersoli 1886/71 likes a hard cast 450gr.FP at 1,600fps. That's a decent moose/elk load (which I don't hunt any more LOL).

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381249 - 15/12/23 07:08 AM

Rather careless email in respects the group sizing and more importantly referring to the rear sight needing to be HIGHER to bring the POI down. Hopefully both are typos, the latter statement would have me questioning the credentials of the gunsmith. Shooting off hand to check regulation is also surprising in that results are very dependent on the ability of the shooter. Like John I would be expecting the forehand to be supported. How many of us would check the grouping ability of any rifle or gun by shooting unsupported offhand at 100m????

Surprising also is the rather nonchalant response to the gun shooting high. I would have thought some correspondence from the gunsmith to ascertain if you wanted some work done to the sights to remedy this or alternatively look at the cartridge loading to achieve a lower POI. Obviously changing the load could affect the regulation. Was the gun shooting high before it went to the gunsmith? If so then tweaking the load to lower the POI should have been done before sending for regulation?

I wouldn't be overly enthused about the work although I guess with short range cast bullet use it may suffice.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381253 - 15/12/23 04:35 PM

Quote:

. BUT - what is the load?
).

I made the rounds for the regulation.

Its a 405gr hard cast with 34gr of ADI 2207 (Australian powder same as H4198). Its doing about 1450fps.

This was the most accurate load I came up with for my rifle and it will handle anything in Australia.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: eagle27]
#381254 - 15/12/23 04:37 PM

Quote:

Was the gun shooting high before it went to the gunsmith? If so then tweaking the load to lower the POI should have been done before sending for regulation?

It was shooting pretty well smack on at 50M.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381255 - 15/12/23 04:40 PM

The guns on its way.

I will give it a good run when I get it back and let you know how it went.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381263 - 16/12/23 05:15 AM

Looking forward to your 'finding's.
With the slow moving bullets, a slightly higher vel. should bring the elevation down somewhat, without hurting the regulation - maybe?
I am sure the gun smith meant "lower" rear sight.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381268 - 16/12/23 06:11 AM

Quote:

Looking forward to your 'finding's.
With the slow moving bullets, a slightly higher vel. should bring the elevation down somewhat, without hurting the regulation - maybe?
I am sure the gun smith meant "lower" rear sight.

That will certainly be the case Tony as Daryl has described!
A small change in velocity can have quite a large difference in impact point, even a powder change can vary group size & shape remarkably; so just a small tweak might be all you need to get velocity up & your new Chrissy present on target without playing with the sights!
Best of luck mate!

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TonyD227
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Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: 93x64mm]
#381345 - 18/12/23 01:31 PM

I got it back today and I have to admit it looks good.

Will try and get to the range tomorrow.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381411 - 20/12/23 08:19 AM

Well not too bad.

I shot it at an indoor range at 50M and while the light there is terrible (there is a big spotlight running right down the middle and the black circle disappears at 50M), the results werent that bad.

The photos show two groups and a six shot string. All are in the black at 50M and all had the right barrel printing to the right of the left barrel.

Dont pay too much attention to the height of the two groups in one of them, as I said the black circle was pretty hard to see at times.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

Edited by TonyD227 (22/12/23 07:10 AM)

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381415 - 20/12/23 12:22 PM

I can't view the photos. Anyone else?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#381423 - 20/12/23 10:35 PM

Sadly No photos!

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DarylS
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Posts: 26513
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: 93x64mm]
#381428 - 21/12/23 12:36 AM

probably "broken" links - something missing.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381435 - 21/12/23 08:40 AM

sorry, I can open them by clicking on them. They are on Google photos, I will try again.

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When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381436 - 21/12/23 08:48 AM

https://photos.app.goo.gl/j8QPo7tceqs6NWcX9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7RpxeEFsioBdXDZo9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MCi4tPtRe2Spf62p7

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When to much recoil is just not enough.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381439 - 21/12/23 09:13 AM

I followed the instructions, but I can't seem to post the photos.

Do the above new links work, they are different to the original ones and the site says anyone can view these?

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When to much recoil is just not enough.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381441 - 21/12/23 11:42 AM

No, they try to open something on my tablet itself. I'm too busy at the moment tbtomeoit for you

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4915
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#381444 - 21/12/23 01:04 PM

The last lot open for me.

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DarylS
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Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Rule303]
#381449 - 22/12/23 03:01 AM

The last 3 pictures of groups on page 2 open for me as well.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by DarylS (22/12/23 03:02 AM)

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381454 - 22/12/23 07:10 AM

I deleted the original links.

The second set seem to work, for some?

I am hoping to make the 100M outdoor range today.

Just for giggles/curiosity I also fired some other loads, 520gr, 21.3gr of 2205, 530gr, 22gr 2205 and 300gr Federal commercial rounds.

All the 500's hit the black at 50M and the 300's were about 6 inches above the black about 4 inches apart.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

Edited by TonyD227 (22/12/23 07:15 AM)

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381455 - 22/12/23 07:41 AM

As you're finding out mate - it's all about timing!
The bigger projectiles will go thru your bore at a slower speed & hence different impact point.
If you can shoot off a rest at 100m do so with it being in your hand, that way it will naturally let the rifle recoil instead of off a sandbag rest.

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TonyD227
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Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: 93x64mm]
#381462 - 22/12/23 03:39 PM

OK so shot off a rest, rifle in hand and hand on the bag, at 50M & 85M (the 50M indoors were off a rest to).

Here are the 50 and 85M targets.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/S42UNqVTMenKkaCc7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Rsu5YtKh2wvEc3ty9

Left and right barrel seem to be crossing by 85M but it's still a lot better than before where the left barrel would be on the 10 ring at 85M and the right would be on the left edge of the target (the white edge).

So, I would say I have minute of Pig at 85M.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381468 - 23/12/23 03:59 AM

What was this load Tony, for the last 2 targets, 50 and 85M?
You are very close to having them print together @ 50. Then at 100, they would be parallel, but crossed.
I think same bullet, just a little more powder or higher speed.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381472 - 23/12/23 07:04 AM

Quote:

What was this load Tony, for the last 2 targets, 50 and 85M?
You are very close to having them print together @ 50. Then at 100, they would be parallel, but crossed.
I think same bullet, just a little more powder or higher speed.

The load is a 405gr projectile (HRBC) and 34gr of 2207 for about 14/1450fps. It's similar to the PPU 405 commercial round.

I am going to do some loading today so will try some with 38 and 40gr of 2207.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381485 - 24/12/23 04:53 AM

I would try 36, 38 and 40. But, that's just me.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381495 - 24/12/23 02:29 PM

OK so faster makes the cross over worse.

Below are 405gr with 38gr 2207 and its not real flash.

The other is my Sharps load of a 520gr with 21.3gr of 2205 (about 1100fps).

It definitely prefers big and slow (sounds just like me).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wqDADxCD1zGFNZnp8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RnxCfjHD9wFj9mHa7

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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m239
.275 member

Reged: 13/09/17
Posts: 52
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381502 - 24/12/23 09:54 PM

The 2205 looks good.

Hope you’ve got plenty of it in reserve.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: m239]
#381512 - 25/12/23 03:22 AM

Interesting. Appears so on the low and slow. Well, you don't know for sure, until you try. I would try bumping those 500's to get them closer. They are diverging/spreading at that range.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381518 - 25/12/23 07:06 AM

I have a bottle and a half of 2205 left but might try a low 2207 load with 500's and see how that goes.

I wrote to ADI mid this year and they replied that 2205 would be back late this year, they're leaving it right to the end.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#381520 - 25/12/23 07:10 AM

Quote:

I have a bottle and a half of 2205 left but might try a low 2207 load with 500's and see how that goes.

I wrote to ADI mid this year and they replied that 2205 would be back late this year, they're leaving it right to the end.

Tony - they've been saying it would be back since 2022!
Yanking everyone's chain here.
Lets hope you're right though, got to feed that hungry 45/70 of yours!

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Hunter4752001
.300 member

Reged: 25/01/10
Posts: 124
Loc: Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: 93x64mm]
#381522 - 25/12/23 11:30 AM

Forget AR2205 until you actually see it on the shelves and don't believe a thing Thales claim.

Numerous rumours were circulated about the issues with pistol powders. In reality (and publicly admitted by Thales), Thales licenced the production to General Dynamics in Canada who now supply it to Hodgdon for the US market (Clays, International, Universal).

Thales' main customer for AR2205 was Hodgdon who marketed it in the US, variously as H4227 and later as IMR4227 (Hodgdon hold the rights to the name IMR4227 and can label anything they like as such). Lately I've seen photos of jugs of IMR4227 with 'Made in Canada' on the label. Possible that Thales sold production rights to General Dynamics Canada and don't give a crap about Australian customers.

No secret that Thales and General Dynamics are in partnership for a number of high end defence products. So the question remains did Thales sacrifice their Australian powder customers as part of the quid pro quo for their other endeavours?

The "Winchester" ball powders are actually manufactured by General Dynamics Florida with distributions rights owned by Hodgdon. Olin Corp (Winchester) has a significant commercial relationship with Thales. Olin Corp (Winchester) whereby Olin manufactures all the 9mm and some of the 5.56mm ammo which Thales then supplies to the ADF. Olin Corp (Winchester) Australia are a significant distributor of Thales powder in Australia and stopped importing Winchester branded ball powders.

Of course there's no market manipulation or cartel behaviour going on......

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Hunter4752001]
#381537 - 26/12/23 05:08 AM

I have an unopened can of IMR4227 that is in a steel can. It was sold to a friend when he asked for Black Powder. Go figure. I also have part cans of both H and IMR 4227 from 40 or more years ago.
Although some old books give data for 4227 and the .45/70, but that is not a powder I would use even for light loads. My bro has a light load he likes for cowboy action challenges using his 86 Winchester. 31gr. 4198 & 420gr. cast bullet. Soft shooting and very accurate.

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
#381540 - 26/12/23 08:22 AM

I shoot some Pat Garret here in Aust and am lucky to still have an unopened Trail Boss (1.5kg or 3.3lb) and a 1/4 of an opened tub, so that's still my slow fun 45/70 load.

I also still have a year or so of 2205 left but yes, I am not holding my breath.

I found a few boxes of 500gr round noses so am going to try 28, 30 and 32gr of 2207 (same as H4198) and see how that goes. I got those loads from the Hogdon part of the 45/70 One Book, One Caliber (it was for 485gr proj but they are trapdoor loads so will be safe in the DR).

Might be a while before I can test it as the local range is closed for repairs (road works that are long due).

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: Hunter4752001]
#381545 - 26/12/23 04:11 PM

Quote:

Forget AR2205 until you actually see it on the shelves and don't believe a thing Thales claim.

Numerous rumours were circulated about the issues with pistol powders. In reality (and publicly admitted by Thales), Thales licenced the production to General Dynamics in Canada who now supply it to Hodgdon for the US market (Clays, International, Universal).

Thales' main customer for AR2205 was Hodgdon who marketed it in the US, variously as H4227 and later as IMR4227 (Hodgdon hold the rights to the name IMR4227 and can label anything they like as such). Lately I've seen photos of jugs of IMR4227 with 'Made in Canada' on the label. Possible that Thales sold production rights to General Dynamics Canada and don't give a crap about Australian customers.

No secret that Thales and General Dynamics are in partnership for a number of high end defence products. So the question remains did Thales sacrifice their Australian powder customers as part of the quid pro quo for their other endeavours?

The "Winchester" ball powders are actually manufactured by General Dynamics Florida with distributions rights owned by Hodgdon. Olin Corp (Winchester) has a significant commercial relationship with Thales. Olin Corp (Winchester) whereby Olin manufactures all the 9mm and some of the 5.56mm ammo which Thales then supplies to the ADF. Olin Corp (Winchester) Australia are a significant distributor of Thales powder in Australia and stopped importing Winchester branded ball powders.

Of course there's no market manipulation or cartel behaviour going on......

Dry up ammunition and ammunition components and you strangle shooters.

Especially powder, primers and loaded ammunition which cannot be posted.

Thank God for Woodleigh and Bertram.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: NitroX]
#381577 - 27/12/23 01:12 PM

At the indoor 50M range. I really must stop using this but the outdoor range is closed until mid Jan.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TyEmcKWwgzCq1GKY6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/N4ChGy79LV5pyipU6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zkJiadho5QTaZSdM9

The 520 with 21.3 of 2205 was pretty good but I am hoping I can get something a bit more powerful working when I go out to 100M (or 85M at the local range).

Edited by TonyD227 (27/12/23 01:13 PM)

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TonyD227
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Australian Gunsmith to regulate.a Sabatti 45/70 [Re: TonyD227]
#383822 - 01/04/24 05:21 PM

Finally got a chance to try the 500's at 85M

I think I will stick with the 32gr 2207. The FPS was the left barrel only which is about 10-20FPS faster than the right barrel.

I don't know what happened with the 30gr? (that's the one with no writing on it).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UpZ85QmPuiK2QHPo9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/VtbzvPMMueXocodC6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZDbFUdqgLbj4Rhor6

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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