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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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brennon272
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Loc: Georgia
Questions On Building Double Rifles
      #310775 - 21/01/18 05:47 PM

Hello,

I have read and researched fairly extensively the process of building double rifles and am posting a few questions that I have. I am not necessarily interested in converting a shotgun into a double rifle, I am more entertained by machining my own action as I have access to a full machine shop with manual and cnc equipment as well as plenty of hand tools.

1. How should I go about getting proper dimensions for the action? I have been unable to find any blueprints, at this point I am assuming that I will have to buy a shotgun anyway just for the measurements. If this is true, what bores should I be looking for? I know some makers have as many as 8 different action sizes for their doubles. The only calibers I would be particularly interested in would be "obsolete" calibers like 318 Westley Richards or perhaps a 400 Purdey, but nothing larger than a 425 Westley Richards.

2. If I should have to use a shotgun action for dimensions, what brands should I look for? Ideally I would like a double rifle with an H&H type 7 pin lock, intercepting sears, and an Anson & Deeley type forend iron.

3. What metal(s) should I seek for the receiver, locks, forend iron, etc? I have seen claims from some makers that their receivers are "Specially designed for double rifles," I am assuming that this refers to intercepting sears, bushed firing pins, and reinforcement added on the sides of the receiver. If I am wrong or there is more to this statement please correct me on this.

4. I plan on using chopper lump barrels that I will join myself. I have only been able to find two providers of chopper lump blanks: Hambrusch/Ferlach in Austria and microfinish gun barrels ltd. If anyone knows of others it would be of great benefit to have as many sources as possible when trying to source blanks for these "obsolete" calibers.

5. I have Ellis Brown's building double rifles on shotgun action en route to me, any recommendations for other books on building doubles would be great, especially on the process of regulation.

I would like anyone who has any additional comments or tips who have undertaken such a challenge to please share them, good or bad

Thanks,
Brennon272


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #310869 - 23/01/18 11:46 AM

brennon272,

1 & 2. Perhaps purchase a AYA #2 in 12 guage. This will give you dimensions of a Holland sidelock bar action in 12guage. That and a 20guage will give you dimensions and scaling. I would also look at the back action Holland as it is considered stronger than the bar action.

3. I'm no engineer but Dallas' book on McKay Brown mentions EN series steel for action bodies and it is able to be case hardened.

4. I think Border barrels does chopper lump barrels.

5. I would recommend Guncraft by Vic Venters. This, and Ellis' book, will give you details on jointing. Some of Vic's Shooting Sportsman articles will give you some details of hinge pin replacement and jointing.

My preference would be scaled to size Holland and Holland back action sidelocks with reinforced bodies, Southgate ejectors, extended topstrap and trigger guard..............in fact a Holland and Holland Royal "clone".

"Makers to the Trade" may also have components in various stage of completion from which you could get your dimensions from.

CNC digitizing an AYA #2 would give you a huge head start. Then you can scale the images for your different calibres. It is apparent that finishing is where the real work is and this is what makes the difference between an assembled "kit of parts" and a "bespoke" double rifle.

Just my thoughts. And remember free advice is usually worth everything you gave for it!

Good luck. Please keep us informed of your progress.


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DarylS
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #310872 - 23/01/18 11:56 AM

Brennon272 - you are in luck - check out this thread.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=258838&an=0&page=0#Post258838

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Shotgunlover
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #311049 - 25/01/18 09:23 PM

Have a look at this article for ideas re 3D prototyping used in double shotgun design. The action showed is entirely 3D printed in ABS plastic.

It is not wholly appliccable to sidelocks but it might contain some useful bits.

http://oplognosia.com/?p=7590

--------------------
Shotgunlover


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #316054 - 04/05/18 10:42 AM

Brennon272,

Anything further on this ???


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MotelAlpha
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #316809 - 26/05/18 12:10 AM

If I were you, I would spend a year with DeweyVicknair....see his lates posting

--------------------
Pro Deo et Pro Patria


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DarylS
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #316813 - 26/05/18 02:48 AM

Quote:

If I were you, I would spend a year with DeweyVicknair....see his lates posting




That is the link I posted.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MotelAlpha
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #316816 - 26/05/18 03:06 AM

So it is, I was suggesting he trot on up tp PA.

--------------------
Pro Deo et Pro Patria


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Aaron_Little
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #318951 - 10/08/18 02:10 AM

The best way is to have an idea on your intended overall weight.

Start with the barrels and work back. I think you’ll find for smaller calibers that a wall thickness around the chamber of .200”-.225” tapering down to .100” wall thickness at mid barrels adequate. The bigger calibers need more wall thickness at the breach but still quickly taper down to .100”-.125”.

Barrels need to be roughly half the gun weight.

You’ll also notice double rifle actions have a wider action bar than shotguns. That’s why the fences on double rifles aren’t as pronounced as shotgun actions. This is done for strength and to get more weight between the hands.


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Aaron_Little]
      #320902 - 23/10/18 11:47 AM

Aaron,

that's interesting information.


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #321800 - 23/11/18 05:59 AM

All interesting points and advice that has definitely been well received. Up unto this point I have still been reading as much as possible on the subject and learning how to engrave which is quite the time consuming but rewarding ordeal! I am still searching for a source for chopperlump barrels.

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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #321811 - 23/11/18 11:47 PM

If you want Chopperlump Rifle Barrel's from the UK try Arthur Smith at Arm's Restoration Services in Colchester,Essex.He make's the rifle tube's for most of the best quality double rifles from the UK.He is extremely knowledgeable and if anybody can help with obsolete calibre's it would be him.
Chris Kay from Microfinish doesn't make rifle tube's,only shotgun.


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #321825 - 24/11/18 12:53 PM

Quote:

If you want Chopperlump Rifle Barrel's from the UK try Arthur Smith at Arm's Restoration Services in Colchester,Essex.He make's the rifle tube's for most of the best quality double rifles from the UK.He is extremely knowledgeable and if anybody can help with obsolete calibre's it would be him.
Chris Kay from Microfinish doesn't make rifle tube's,only shotgun.




Pugwash,

Thanks! Makes sense as to Microfinish, I looked everywhere and could not find anything indicating they made rifle barrels! In addition, today I just purchased this!



Its a factory (in the white) AyA Sidelock! I believe it is a H&H seven pin type. I also purchased these parts that are all en route to me:

1. Ejector forend iron - bare
2. Cocking lifter - 1
3. Left sidelock hammer - 1
4. Right sidelock hammer - 1
5. Ejector trippers - left and right
6. Striker disks .430 - 2
7. Hammer spring - 1
8. Sidelock firing pin - 2

Edited by brennon272 (25/11/18 03:46 PM)


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #321946 - 28/11/18 11:40 AM

brennon272,

couldn't see your photo.

Did you purchase this from the AYA factory ???


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #321989 - 29/11/18 06:58 AM

Hi Brennon272,

For starter's this is a Bar action lock rather than a Back action lock which would be far more ideal for an H&H rifle build.If you go down this route you have a mighty task ahead of you.Even if you complete an action,you still have the stocking and finishing to complete.Once this is done you'll have a pair of rifle barrels on a shotgun action.
However many time's people do these type of conversion's/build's I will never be convinced that the action's hold up like a rifle action will.That's the reason rifle action's were designed to be more robust than a shotgun action.
You would probably be better to go to a company like Piotti or another similar Gun and Rifle maker,and see if you can purchase an action and part's to build a proper rifle.You will save yourself a lot of grief and at the end you will have a proper Double rifle rather than a compromise.
I know that a few people here will tell me I'm talking a load of rubbish but after 40 years of making Guns and Rifle's I think I might have gained a bit of experience in these matter's.


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transvaal
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322004 - 30/11/18 03:24 AM

Pugwash is giving you information that is entirely correct.

Further, if you desire to build a proper double rifle in a large caliber, his suggestion to buy a sidelock back action from a gunmaker is straight on.

Having built some double rifles myself, I know what I would do to attempt to find such an DR action from a gunmaker. Arrieta in Spain ceased gun and rifle production; and they made some of the best Spanish double rifles. There must be some double rifle actions in their old shop. John Boyd of Quality Arms Houston, Texas has been a dealer for Arrieta for about 40 years and knows the owners of Arrieta well. What I would do if I were in your place is to telephone John Boyd and ask him to get in touch with his Arrieta friends in Spain and ask them if they have what you need and are willing to sell it and ship it to John Boyd. They likely even have barrel sets. Of course, John Boyd should be paid a fee for doing this.


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322130 - 03/12/18 11:43 AM

Pugwash & Transvaal,

What do you see are the basic differences between a shotgun and a rifle action (sidelock back action) ?

Is it the length, depth and width of the watertable that differ between the two ??

If these dimensions, for the double rifle action build, wouldn't this sidelock be suitable ??


I understand that the Back action is more suitable than the Bar action as it leaves more material in the water table/elbow area of the action - where it wants to flex. But many good double rifles are also built on Bar actions.


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322168 - 04/12/18 07:18 AM

Hi Twobobbwana,

I think for the most part you will find the wall from the lump slots to the cocking limb slot's to be thicker on a rifle than a shotgun.From the face to the back of the action has more meat and then some are bolstered aswell so the strength is added from the face to the flats.The rifle action's are thicker everywhere which also has the added advantage of adding weight.If the action's to light it will knock itself apart aswell as knock your teeth out when you shoot it.The back action locks mean you don't need to cut the outer sides of the action away for the lock bed's,again adding strength.The crosspin's tend to be slightly larger diameter and the gap between the lumps is slightly more so that the draw has the strength in it to hold the barrels down.
It's really important that the rifle is carefully jointed as if it bear's only on the crosspin and not on the draw,the action will stretch leaving the barrels off the face.On a shotgun you can get away with not having a hard bearing as the shock through the action is nowhere as damaging as a rifle.In saying that it's still important that the bearing is thereabouts.Some better quality rifle's have detachable draws which allow's the draw bearing to be restored after a rejoint.
I would suggest that anybody interested in these things to compare photo's from the internet as there's plenty out there.Even without specific sizes,comparing photo's shows the obvious differences between the two.


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transvaal
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322197 - 05/12/18 10:07 AM

Mark (aka Pugwash);

Importantly, you covered the need for the fitting of the draw to the "circle" (both more often now straights and not curves on best quality DR's) to be absolute. I suspect less than 1% of double rifle shooters know the importance of this fact--or even know where to find the draw.

I remember my late friend, Jack Rowe, speaking to me of your great skill and knowledge of the trade.

Kindest Regards, and stay warm in your shed.

Steve


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322201 - 05/12/18 12:42 PM

Pugwash,

Thanks for your input. I find this fascinating.

What you say about leaving more meat in the action for weight etc makes any amount of sense...."Weight between the hands" is where it's at for handling. I've read about the greater diameter of hinge pins before and have seen posted photos (possibly by Dewey Vicknair) of the greater action width/thickness and am sure this adds to the longevity of the rifle. I have seen pictures in Ellis Brown's book showing the differences in action thickness with double rifle actions.

Looking at the amount of material removed from a boxlock action for hammers, cocking levers/rods etc I cannot understand how people believe them to be stronger than a sidelock.

Given that there have been many successful double rifles built on shotgun actions one wonders how much material has to be in these areas while still resulting in a durable double rifle. I do understand that there have been failures in making double rifles on shotgun actions...……….as there has been in any endeavour.

"A gun is only as good as the quality of it's jointing" is another comment I've read. Makes any amount of sense as the better quality of the bearing/jointing the more stresses are shared and the less likely it will "kick itself to pieces".

Very interesting your comment about more material between the lumps. I had not considered it and this may well be the origin of guns being "long in the bar" being durable/strong.

Vick Venters wrote an article about "Jointing and the Circle" (???) and he mentioned the details re hinge pin diameter and the critical nature of jointing double rifles. If I recall correctly he mentioned that the rear draw (rear lug bearing surface) should come into play to take the pressure off the hinge pin so that it doesn't try to push the hinge pin out of the gun. I believe the comment/implication was that the rear draw had to come into play but not cause the rifle to be hard to open/close. I apologise to Vic if I'm misquoting him.


The replaceable rear draw insert makes wonderful sense as it allows the rifle to be rejointed and maintain bearing on the rear draw (if this is the correct terminology)...………..something you couldn't do with a shotgun/rifle that does not have this facility. Meaning that changing the hinge pin, for a larger diameter one, in effect pushes the rear draw/bearing out of contact and the replaceable draw brings the draw back into contact with the front face of the rear lug.

Please don't take these comments as arguing. I don't pretend to be an authority …...pretty much on anything...…...I'm just kicking these thoughts around.

One again thank you for sharing your knowledge Pugwash.


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bouldersmith
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322274 - 08/12/18 12:07 AM

Mark,
Thoughts on third bites? A requirement on a medium bore break action gun? I see some but not many vintage guns with out them. I am considering building a break action single shot rifle and your opinion is valued. Best regards,
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: bouldersmith]
      #322332 - 10/12/18 07:20 PM

Hi Twobobbwana,

I think you've got a pretty good grasp of the subject.I know what you mean about the Boxlock action's.These tend to be quite thick through the flats and also from the lumpslot's to the tumbler slot's.However you look at these thing's the main areas seem to be aformentioned ones and the thickness through the root or radius between the flats and the face.Most Boxlock rifle's also had some kind of third bite or at least a doll's head.This would have helped considerably keep the thing together.

To answer Steve's question on third bite's,I will give you my opinion which again is going to be up for debate,but is through years of observation what I consider to be correct.The dolls head extension is a better third grip than anything else except for a dolls head with a third bite.It stops the face from moving backwards and with a third bite will tend to stop the barrels lifting when fired.The hidden third bites such as with an H&H or Purdey are next to useless.The main aim is to stop the face from moving backwards which neither of these do.The likes of the crossbolt type third bites are ok and definitely work but again in my opinion aren't as good as the dolls head.Some of the early Westley Richards Rifles didn't have an underbolt,just a dolls head with an third bite.These held together well because when properly jointed the Draw will tend to pull the barrel's downwards into the action when fired rather than the barrels pushing off the action.

Steve,you rifle's going to be a bit difficult to fit a Dolls Head to so if you feel the need to fit a third bite I think it will have to be a crossbolt.You see on the continental rifles that they have them either on one or both sides of the chamber.I know you will have the experience to decide which is best for you and most suitable for the caliber you choose.However well made these Breech opening rifles are,they will never as accurate as a Bolt action or Falling Block rifle.It's just the nature of the design and you will never stop the flexing as hard as you try to eliminate it.

Mark


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322375 - 12/12/18 12:03 PM

Pugwash,

Thank you for your input.

It appears that a double rifle needs to be wider at the breechface and bar to accommodate greater barrel/chamber thickness (due to greater breech pressures than a shotgun), deeper in the bar (at the rear) to resist flexing in the elbow of the breechface and bar, longer in the water table/bar to add material between the lumps/bites. Larger in the hinge pin.

A dolls head extension/greener crossbolt would stop the barrels trying to lift and push forward while the elbow of the breechface/bar was "flexing".

You don't like hidden third bites. I'd say, along with side clips, the hidden third bite stops axial movement...….but the bulk of the bulk of the movement/stresses would be longitudinal - along the bar (?). I'm aware that I'm getting into territory here that is out of my "engineering" depth.

Back action sidelocks, as against bar action sidelocks, are preferable to leave more strength/thickness in the bar/elbow area of the action.

This is just my summary and I don't presume to speak for you nor "lead the witness".

Re the double rife built on a shotgun action debate. Bearing in mind the above factors one still has to wonder how heavy does the action have to be in these areas to still result in a reliable durable double rifle. Remembering that it would be rare for a carry around hunting double rifle to be a rare article to have been fired 1,000 times. All being equal it would be the pressures involved with a double rifle cartridge that would be the determining factor.

I find this topic fascinating, and again, I thank you for sharing your knowledge Pugwash.


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322387 - 12/12/18 06:24 PM

That about sums it up.The Hidden third bites are generally to small and don't fit well on the sides, that they're help in the axial movement would be minimal.Side clips do work but are a major pain in the backside to fit properly.They are beaten over the side of the barrels rather than welded on.

I understand what your saying about the amount of use the double rifle get's compared to a shotgun but it only needs to blow up once to do the damage.Would you want to be shooting something that every time you pull the trigger,you dont know if its going to kill you rather than what your pointing it at.


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322459 - 14/12/18 11:46 AM

Pugwash,

I should also add "Bushed Strikers" to the list of desirable double rifle attributes.


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322467 - 14/12/18 07:11 PM

Definitely.Originally they were fitted in the days of the black powder rifles because the face of the actions would burn away and pit really badly.This gave you a chance to effectively replace the face of the action that the cartridge was against and make it servicable again.It also gave you a chance to correct any off centre striking issues.
I forgot about those as all the side by side shotguns I make have them and I take them for granted.The one thing is that the striker diameters are different for a rifle.Normally a shotgun is around .100" and a rifle is .060"-.070".You also have to watch the striker protrusion.I normally do the shotguns and rifles to around .055".This is more critical on a rifle and really shouldn't be more than .060".On a shotgun I've seen them at .080" and they've been fine.Also the rebound on a rifle is quite critical.If the rebound allow's the striker to dissapear back into the striker hole as soon as the cartridge is fired,then the primer will volcano back into the striker hole because of the pressure.You need to have the striker still protruding slightly so the primer has nowhere to go.

I could write a book on all these bit's that people have no idea about.The're all important,but unless you do these things all the time and see what happens to the firearms through all stages of production your very unlikely to know.

Edited by Pugwash (15/12/18 01:59 AM)


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tinker
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322475 - 15/12/18 02:32 AM

Quote:


I could write a book on all these bit's that people have no idea about.The're all important,but unless you do these things all the time and see what happens to the firearms through all stages of production your very unlikely to know.





There's a market for this.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: tinker]
      #322537 - 17/12/18 11:37 AM

Pugwash,

Put me down for a signed copy of that book please.

This is great information and things that we don't consider but they contribute to a properly functioning reliable double rifle.

Interesting your comments about bushed strikers and renovating a pitted breech face/correcting off centre pin strikes. Everyone concentrates on the easy replacement of broken strikers in the field and gas management aspects of bushed strikers but there are more to them than what we think.


Thanks again...……...make sure that book has plenty of photos.


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322566 - 18/12/18 06:18 AM

Hello,

Reached out to double gun shop with no luck. Apparently the contacts he has at Arrieta are no longer affiliated and he has not received any communication from them directly. Other thoughts on sourcing an action? I am going to call the contact provided here in the UK for barrels soon.


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #322574 - 18/12/18 11:38 AM

Brennon,

Try Ian Clarke at ian@ICENG.CO.UK

This is Ian Clarke cnc machinist who worked for Purdey, Holland etc.


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322610 - 19/12/18 03:20 PM

twobobbwana,

I attempted emailing Ian and the email address is invalid. Please let me know if it was a typo.

Thanks,
Brennon272


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #322612 - 19/12/18 06:24 PM

I would try Perugini and Visini in Italy.They supply parts to the Italian trade.I would also get your tubes from Peter Hambrusch.You will have them in a few months of your order.
The English gun trade is very difficult to deal with and verging on a cottage industry.Ian Clark is a very Busy man dealing with the Rigby Rising bite parts.I know he would take your order but would hate to think that in a years time you still don't have all the parts to build your rifle and I never warned you.The same goes for Arthur Smith with the tube's.Unless Arthur has the tubes in stock,which is highly unlikely you could be waiting a very long time for your parts.Westley Richards use Hambrusch Tubes and they shoot very well.
It's all very well having stuff made in the UK.The finished Rifles are lovely but getting there is a nightmare.


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transvaal
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322628 - 20/12/18 06:09 AM

Brennon;

Mark gives you very good advise about P&V as well as the English suppliers to the gun trade.

I wish that I had the depth of knowledge that Mark has about actioning and building guns, wishing that I had met a renown gunmakers like him earlier in my life.

I am an amateur gun maker having worked in the engineering and construction trades, and now an old man of 77 years of age. Through the last 60 years in my interest in gunmaking I have learned many methods from people in the gun trade here and in UK.

I have recently "thrown in the towel" and sold my shop tools and equipment for building guns and rifles--vertical and horizontal milling machines, lathe capable of turning 30 inch long barrels, hand made gun tools, indexers and so forth. These are the tools that are required to make from scratch (ie 4140 round bar stock) double rifle or shotgun action and to turn rifle blanks to the appropriate size.

3 years back I decided that I would build a set of barrels for a double rifle and use the shoe lump method that is used by such gunmakers at Verney-Carron and Heym. My friend Jack Rowe (famed gunsmith and gunmaker)formerly of Birmingham, England was of the opinion that shoe lump barrels are stronger than chopper lump barrels, however I see no evidence that shoe lump are stronger--it is just counter intuitive to me.

However, I decided to build a set of shoe lump barrels here in the wilds of South Carolina. I thought that maybe someone here in the USA had built a set before; but I could not find anyone that had and I set out alone without any knowledge of how they were built. I happened upon a video of the shop of Verney-Carron and viewed how they brazed the shoe lump to the barrels, which was the only help I found in my 6 months of effort to machine a shoe lump and braze two barrels to this shoe lump and in the end have the center of the set of barrels at the breech end aligned with the center of the two firing pins of the action, when the barrels were closed and locked in place with the locking bolt of the action. In planning how the I could make certain that when the barrels were fitted to the action hinge pin, draw and action standing breech face and at the same time in direct center with the firing pins (strikers); I decided upon a method that called for a recess to be milled into the bottom of the breech end (area that fits down to the action water table) of the barrels.

I had to make numerous barrel shoe lump platforms before I was satisfied with the results.

I am writing all of this to you so that you will understand that there is method to build your own double rifle barrel set if you have the requisite machines and equipment, welding and brazing skills and gunmaking knowledge. You will need as a minimum a vertical mill built on the Bridgeport design with a long table and a metal lathe that will at least 1 3/8" hole through the head stock capable of turning barstock 30 inches long between centers--not that the barrels will be that long, but that you have room on the lathe bed to mount various tooling that will help you. Best of all is to also have a heavy (couple of tons in weight) horizontal mill that will be used to mill the simi-circle shapes into the length of the shoe lump. This task can be done with a vetical mill as I did it using a 1 inch ball nose milling cutter.

By now there may be someone else here in the USA that could help you whose has built a set of shoe lump barrels as I seem to recall that maybe Butch Searcy was stating that he could build a set. I do not know if he was going to build the shoe lump himself or if he was going to source the shoe lump from Germany or France.

You can get a general idea of how to do what I have described by viewing photos and comments of a long post of mine dated 26 March 2017 on this website. The post is titled "Building and regulating a DR with shoe lump barrels".

Edited by transvaal (20/12/18 06:15 AM)


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322636 - 20/12/18 11:46 AM

Brennon,

try
https://www.ian-clarke-engineering-solutions-limited.co.uk/our-services/


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322637 - 20/12/18 11:48 AM

Brennon,

Pugwash indicates that Ian Clarke is busy with the Rigby Rising bite parts...……..so why not order a "kit of parts" for a Rigby Rising bite...…..just while he's running those parts !!!?????


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322639 - 20/12/18 01:50 PM

Pugwash,

I took your advice to heart and contacted Hambrusch. We will see what happens. I could be categorized as a Westley Richards fan haha, so what works for them will work for me. After all, this DR will be built in .318 Westley Richards! An added bonus is that the barrels will be chopperlump from Hambrusch! Granted my understanding of the jointing process is not to your or twobobbwana's, but it seems that joining chopperlumps may be easier than the shoelump method. I will also contact P&G about an action.

Thanks,
Brennon272
Quote:

I would try Perugini and Visini in Italy.They supply parts to the Italian trade.I would also get your tubes from Peter Hambrusch.You will have them in a few months of your order.
The English gun trade is very difficult to deal with and verging on a cottage industry.Ian Clark is a very Busy man dealing with the Rigby Rising bite parts.I know he would take your order but would hate to think that in a years time you still don't have all the parts to build your rifle and I never warned you.The same goes for Arthur Smith with the tube's.Unless Arthur has the tubes in stock,which is highly unlikely you could be waiting a very long time for your parts.Westley Richards use Hambrusch Tubes and they shoot very well.
It's all very well having stuff made in the UK.The finished Rifles are lovely but getting there is a nightmare.




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Sarg
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322644 - 20/12/18 03:36 PM

I would just like to thank the Double rifle builders & experts for taking the time to post on here, I personally appreciate your posting very much !

Transvaal I really appreciate your shoe lump post, I don't have any talent but will need to make my own conversion soon (as I can't find any one in NZ to do it) and the shoe lump can keep more weight near the action than the Mono block as most shotgun barrels tapper down quickly from the breech face (plus my 8 bore action has no mono block, darn it) Thanks again !


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322645 - 20/12/18 03:36 PM

I did not think about this, but this is a fantastic idea! I currently have an email out to him. I would like for this to work out. A rising bite action would be a swell build, though it may spoil me! If he is already running the parts, perhaps I can save some $$$$$.

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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #322647 - 20/12/18 06:25 PM

Transvaal,Your Idea of the shoe lump is a very good one.It's a sound method of joining a pair of barrels together and a lot of the early double rifles had barrels of that construction.As you say its a matter of method.When you joint the barrels in,you let them in without the hook being cut completely away.Let them down on the Draw and then cut the hook properly using a cutter through the crosspin hole in the action while the two parts are together.Doing it this way mean's the Barrels and action are exactly where you need them to be when the hook is cut.If your cutter is a few thou smaller than your crosspin,then it make's for minimal fitting,and then black the barrels down the last few thou to get them exactly where you want them.

Brennon,I hope you get what you want.Ian will certainly have the rising bite parts but whether he'll sell you any is a different matter.I say that as if he sold them to other's then no-one would be buying them from Rigby's.Best wishes with it.You have a Mammoth task ahead.

Edited by Pugwash (20/12/18 06:29 PM)


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322665 - 21/12/18 07:25 AM

I have definitely confirmed that he has a .375 scaled Purdey style self opener action on the shelf. What is the consensus on this type of action in comparison to the Rigby and H&H?

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transvaal
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322667 - 21/12/18 08:49 AM

Dear Mark, AKA Pugwash;

It is most kind of you to describe the method that you use to joint Double Rifles barrels against the draw. I wish I had had this knowledge from you when I jointed mine; it would have saved me much time and grief.

I wish you and your family a very Happy Christmas (and boxing day) there where the winds of winter sweep across the Island.

P.S.

I enjoyed seeing the inside of your shop in the video of some years back--everything is just where you need it and easy to hand.

Kindest Regards;

Stephen Howell


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322668 - 21/12/18 12:16 PM

Brennon,

I'll challenge the statement regarding my "understanding" of jointing and the general double rifle building process. I'm "Well read" that's all. I need a lot more time on the files and lamp black before I can claim anything.

I enjoy picking the brains of those who have "been there and done it" it contributes to my understanding of the process and demystifies the "black art" processes involved in building double rifles.

I also enjoyed reading Ellis Brown's book and his practical approach to regulation of double rifles.

The shoe lump makes a lot of sense. Heym use it on their doubles. A talented Tasmanian gunsmith, who's name escapes me, posted photos of making shoe lump barrels and you'll find that interesting/educational.

I believe the benefit would be that you can machine your barrell profile to finished size, add the machined shoelump and fit the barrels thereby saving a lot of file time …….. that you'd have to do with chopper lump or monobloc barrels.

Another interesting thing that I've read, possibly in Vic Venter's book (???), is that the old actioners reckon that a properly jointed double (with Purdey underlugs) could be fired without the locking bolt in place. Held shut with a piece of string. Please forgive me if I've misquoted anyone.

Vic venters, if you're reading this, it's about time you did another book.

Great topic. Please keep us updated on your project. I wish you every success.


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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322669 - 21/12/18 12:27 PM

Alex Beer is the gent of which I speak.

He posted the pictures of the process on this forum (?) some time ago.


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322675 - 21/12/18 06:23 PM

One of the main advantages of the shoe lump is cost.You can use bolt action barrel's which are considerbly cheaper than chopperlumps and as Twobobbwana say's,you can profile them before assembly saving time.It's a good production method.
As to the use of the Purdey action.Purdey's use it and don't seem to have any problem's.The 375 action will be plenty strong enough for your 318 Westley and at least at the end of it you'll have a rifle that you know will work and will be unique.


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Pugwash
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322677 - 21/12/18 08:59 PM

Here you go Brennon.A bit of inspiration for you.
Although its a Bar Action rifle the huge Bolster will give it the strength it needs.

https://www.wrusedguns.com/view/rifles/j...-375-h-h-mag--/


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brennon272
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322685 - 22/12/18 05:37 AM

Hello,
I got a price from P&V (pretty much the were not doing business price) of $30k+USD and a 18 month lead time. On the other hand, Ian has a .375 and .470 Purdey action along with a 450/400 Jeffrey boxlock action. Any commentary on these actions would be great. I feel that the .470 will be too big for my purposes. I am mainly concerned about the Purdey vs Jeffrey actions.



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twobobbwana
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #323338 - 16/01/19 11:50 AM

Brennon,

Personally I'd go with the sidelock Purdey action...……..but there would be certainly nothing wrong with the Jeffrey.

While I appreciate that there's a hell of a lot of work saved by buying these partially machined actions...……...I do realise that there's a hell of a lot of work yet to be done.

Might I ask what Ian is charging for these action "kits"?? and what they include.


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