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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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gungadoug
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Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM
converting rimmed extractor to rimless
      #270628 - 17/09/15 10:53 PM

I have an 8x60R double rifle, and a problem. While I have made brass from 9.3x74r, that is not satisfactory because the head is too small, and with any kind of decent pressures will soon cause separations. I find I can buy, reasonably, 8x60S rimless brass, so intend to build a rimless extractor to replace the rimmed one. I am looking for ideas on how to design this so it can be machined without EDM capability. Simplicity is of course a good thing, as is reliability. I don't seem to be able to find any real good pictures of commercially made ones, or drawings. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks, Doug

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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Loc: Hamilton, Montana
Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: gungadoug]
      #270633 - 18/09/15 12:48 AM

Doug:
Why not just purchase 8X60R brass from Buffalo Arms. They carry brass made by Kropatchek, not cheep but would save altering the gun. There phone # is (208) 263-6953. Hope this helps.
Bob

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gungadoug
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Reged: 13/08/12
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Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: aromakr]
      #270667 - 18/09/15 10:22 PM

This is not the Kropatchek chambering, but 8x60rs magnum, or magnum bombe.
Thanks, Doug

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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: gungadoug]
      #270671 - 19/09/15 01:36 AM

Doug:
What is the difference in the 8X60rs from the 8X60r ?
Bob

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gungadoug
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Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM
Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: aromakr]
      #270738 - 20/09/15 10:29 PM

There seems to be a number of cartridges out there that have the same designation, which is the case here. The 8x60r you found at Buffalo is for the Kropatchek bolt rifle, and has a longer gradual tapered neck, and different head dimensions. What I am dealing with is a shorter necked case, .470 in the head. The s designation refers to the bore diameter being .323 vs. i or j designation with a bore of .318.

I have the extractor made and fitted to the barrels, and have found a machinist close who has electrode EDM capability. I will have him do pockets in each side to receive the sliding clips to hold the rimless case head. So far so good!

Thanks, Doug

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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: gungadoug]
      #271028 - 27/09/15 08:16 AM

I have seen a JP Sauer M.54 in 5,6x57 (an over/under combination gun) that was both rimmed and rimless. From memory there were 2 extractors. As it was explained to me, getting 5,6x57R rimmed ammo was sometimes problematic, and hence the choice of extractors. Both cartridges operate at the same pressure. I presume this was factory supplied.

I'm not so sure I haven't seen a universal extractor that would handle both types of ammo on another break-open rifle, but I can't recall the specifics. However some have small spring loaded round plungers that slip into the extractor groove. Others have a spring-loaded flat tapered clip that does the same thing. The taper is opposite on each side of the extractor, (each barrel). The latter has a larger area of contact with the rim so is a stronger extraction option, I'm told. Possibly that is the same one that is flexible enough to handle both cartridge types.

I would think that German gunmakers do this sort of work with some regularity to give their customers flexibility. Perhaps, some of their suppliers like Rechnagel would probably sell the necessary parts if that is the case.

I would think that if you search the German terms for this online and search under "images", you might see examples. Look for Patronenauszieher, or Huelsenauszieher, (there's an umlaut (i.e. 2-dots) after the first 'u' so if you get asked, "Did you mean...." Click on that). The extractor pin is called Auszierstift, plunger is Auszieherbolzen. I'd try those words in combination with Drilling, BBF and Sauer 54 and see if the photos or drawings you want appear. A rim, BTW, is Rand, rimless is Randlos.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #271029 - 27/09/15 09:20 AM

I tried my own advice, above. I couldn't find any useful photos or drawings. Donnelly's book of cartridge conversions, (1987 edition), lists only the rimless 8x60S Magnum, which he recommends using a .30-06 case for. I'm not sure where you find a .30-06R !!!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #271031 - 27/09/15 09:28 AM

The .405 Winchester is just such a case and at 2.583", is plenty long enough.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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karamoja
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Reged: 25/04/12
Posts: 83
Loc: Herefordshire, GB
Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: DarylS]
      #271039 - 27/09/15 04:38 PM

I have not checked it, but what about 30r Blaser?
Regards K

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spinna
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Top End NT Australia
Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: karamoja]
      #271045 - 27/09/15 08:09 PM

maybe the 7x65 Rimmed case could be used to make 8x60 rimmed??

I have heard of 30-06 rimmed cases being made from 7x65 rimmed brass

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gungadoug
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Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM
Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: spinna]
      #271048 - 27/09/15 10:08 PM

Hmmm-- 405? 30r? I'll check into these! Thanks! The rimless extractor will go ahead however, I think it would be nice to have the choice.
Doug

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: converting rimmed extractor to rimless [Re: gungadoug]
      #271066 - 28/09/15 06:20 AM

Jeff Munnell wrote an article, "Some Other Eight Millimeter European Sporting Rounds" in Precision Shooting magazine, November 2005. Page 75 and 76 describe the 8x60 and 8x60R in both J and S versions, (i.e. all 4 variations). He states, (from experience), "the rimmed versions can similarly be formed from the common 7x65R or the more expensive 9,3x74R". He had an un-named break-open single shot specifically marked 8x60RM which, although there was no "S" designation, was .323" bore. Using IMR 4064 and a 200-grain Speer spitzer, (.323" Dia.), he was getting 2,754fps from a 28,1/2" barrel - and sub 1" groups at 50 yards using open sights. His used a small supply of RWS factory brass for this. This factory ammo chronographed at 2,759fps. He used #5260 primers throughout his testing. He also describes loads for his 8x60 rimless rifles.

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