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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262474 - 19/03/15 01:08 AM

THB,
You really haven't given me enough specific information to be able to give you a starting point based on the caliber and load. Here in a nut shell is what you need to achieve. You need to work with center to center measurements. For instance, once you get the barrels permanently into the mono block you need to insure that when you put in the forend bracket that the C. to C. spacing is the same or just a little narrower than it was at the breach end of the barrels. The mid spacer will be just a bit closer than at the forend bracket, and the front spacer needs to be roughly 10 to 20 thousandths closer together than at the mid spacer. This assumes 10 to 12 inches spacing between the mid and front spacer. I like to be sure that the mid spacer is well out in front of the forearm so that I can tap into it for attachment of the front sling swivel.
This last measurement is the only one that is really critical and it sets the final spread at any given distance. You can go ahead and solder in the other spacers but be sure to keep the barrels on the same plane vertically. The front spacer should be made of aluminum for ease of adjustment, and held in with a hose clamp, then once you have it right, you make one the same size out of steel.
The other way to do it is a bit more complicated but will work just as well or better, and that involves making a steel wedge with troughs machined at muzzle diameter, and set up on a slightly inclined or wedge alignment. By moving it in and out you can then adjust your spread at the muzzles but the wedge needs to be soldered in while shooting.
There is a third way which is the one I use, but I do not recommend it to beginners, and that is
to make up the permanent front spacer but leave it a little "fat". I then shoot the gun, un-sweat the spacer, take a bit off the spread, and re-solder it. I do this till I get the spread correct and only then do I worry about getting the final vertical adjustment corrected.
You must always worry about the getting the spread right first. You can adjust both ways to some extent at the same time but the spread has to be achieved first, then worry about getting the elevation of both barrels the same. If you get really lucky, both will come into alignment at the same time, but it doesn't happen often that way.
I have also found that the larger calibers are the easiest ones to regulate, it's the smaller and "hotter" calibers that are very "tweeky" and need to be shot and adjusted many times. I have regulated a double with as few as 20 rounds but that is a freak occurrence. Most of the time on average, it will take 50 to 100 rounds to get it right. If it needs to be parallel out past 100 yards, you can easily double that amount. Good luck on the new gun. Bob

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262475 - 19/03/15 02:34 AM

No TennBilly - I simply worked up loads that would regulate in the gun that Pedersoli had built.

I understand they use lasers to set up the barrels - which are then copper brazed together, I think. Pretty sure they are not soldered, so it is a one-chance-deal to get it close and that's it. I expect it works for muzzleloaders - sometimes - mine did but I had to use a load not recommended by them.

With a muzzleloader, it's very easy to adjust different loads, using different patches, patch thickness, maybe wads included, ball size or bullets, all of which change the way the rifle shoots. Note, however in a ML, bullets are not safe for use in my opinion, due to the possibility of the slug in one barrel moving forward as the other barrel is fired, then the airspace makes that forward sitting slug an obstruction. BOOM!

Due to the normally poor regulation of these SXS guns of Pedersoli, they provide 2 sets of rear sights - you are supposed to sight in each barrel with one of the sights.

This is silly, really, but shows the laser regulation does not work as a final maneuver. This is what you get for $1,000.00 - or hereabouts.

I was merely lucky with mine - many owners are not so lucky. With Slugs, I was told this gun puts them over a foot apart at 50 yards and with a good foot difference in elevation as well. This was using a load that is suitable (maybe) for shooting moose or elk.

My round ball loads that I did get to regulate were just barely suitable for hunting big game, although I never shot anything with it - I sold it to a lawyer at a gun show.

I used it only for shooting trail local walk competitions - it was fun to fire a right, then a left, ringing the steel plates with both, the last one being a fast second shot.

I did this on the 50 or 100yard plates are not difficult targets.

Seems as though I was mistaken in suggesting you could 'start' using lasers - due to the elevation problems also induced between the barrels in smokeless powder loads. They have totally different recoil characteristics than black powder loads, it seems.

Bob and the rest here know what they are talking about. As I said, I've never done it, although the theory sounded good which is why I commented favourably about it. I accept I was wrong, that's OK. I did read somewhere that Pedersoli sets up the Kodiak barrels using lasers & I know of a number of these guns that are useless for hunting due to their poor regulation. Perhaps the owners did not want to spend the time I did at the range to find loads that would shoot reliably?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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GPJ12345
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Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa
Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: DarylS]
      #262482 - 19/03/15 04:45 AM

Thank you Bob for shearing this crucial procedure regarding the regulation process, not much information is readily available in this regard.

Regards

Gert

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TennHillBilly
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Reged: 17/05/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Tennessee Plateau
Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #262487 - 19/03/15 06:35 AM

Thanks for the info provided! Having some quantitative data to start with is a help. When changes are measured in 'thousands', one can readily see the how the number of 'tries' gets way up there! I also see where the hose clamp method is a good start. Bill

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262509 - 20/03/15 12:39 AM

Bill,
This is also why you must regulate with a known and repeatable load, a handload, not a factory. Even if the factory speed data was correct, you still won't be able to reproduce it with a handloaded shell. If you did manage it, that would be extremely lucky. Many of the new factory loads that come out use a bulk powder that we can't even buy.

As Daryl mentioned, you can get varying points of impact by varying the loads, even with nitro powder. That is how the NfB loads work. You keep playing around with different powders and amounts till you get a safe load that will duplicate the regulation load used in your gun at the factory. Usually this load will have about the same speed and the same barrel time as the original load, if you are using the same bullets as the factory did to regulate it.

Any change will usually change the POI of your bullets. If you go from cast to jacketed, if you start using a different primer, or in some cases, if you start using powder from a different lot, those can all change your regulation. It is also not true that there is only one regulation loading for each gun. Some may be more picky about what you load them with, but because of all the variables we have today, it is not unusual to be able to work up at least two or three hunting loads using different bullets, different powders, primers, or all of the above.

You will note that I said hunting loads, and what I will accept, and what you want, may be two different things. But be aware that none of these are target loads, doubles are not target guns. They are made to throw two bullets into a decent hunting sized pair, that's it! The very best you can do to regulate a double is to get them printing on the same exact elevation and the same distance apart, C. to C., as the bores are at the muzzles.
Bob

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #263990 - 22/04/15 11:01 AM

Quote:

Guess I should have been more specific. I meant only for the initial alignment. Agree, first firing back to traditional methods. Just thought it would be a quick way to set up the initial soldering/wedges, etc.



The lasers are used by many regulators! As you say only for a starting point. Start with the line of sight crossing at 50 yds by half the total distance between centers of each bore center.

After that traditional wedge adjustment by trial and error!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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