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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Aaron_Little]
      #243957 - 18/03/14 01:33 AM

Aaron,
Some interesting observations. There is no denying the concentration of stresses at the apex of a 90 degree joint. However that's a fault common to every gun that was ever either sleeved or built on the mono-block system. One thing that I have going for me is that this is a bottleneck cartridge with a fair amount of body taper. About 1/2" before that seam, the diameter of the cartridge drops from the .468" at the base down to only .294" at the neck and then .264" at the seam, the point of the highest stress. This provides a lot of extra steel at that point. As I said earlier, proof firing in a couple of weeks will show whether this project was ill-advised or not.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #243967 - 18/03/14 07:08 AM

Here is a bit more. Photo below, a little out of focus, shows the rear face of the barrels after micro-tigging. The weld on the right barrel has been filed and stoned, the left is still to be done.



In the next photo, both welds are finished and the rim recesses freshed out with the chambering reamer.



The final two photos were taken after I finished filing and stoning the seams between the front of the mono-block and the rear shoulder on the barrels. As you can see, even though the barrels are still in the white, the seams are barely visible. Once things are rust blued, they will be even less so.





Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:17 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #243968 - 18/03/14 07:26 AM

I have to agree with Ron. All mono-block systems regardless of the method of joining the barrels to the block have the same weakness, however this is not a problem if designed properly, such as machining a radius at the apex, providing of course that there is enough material thickness. As far as the sleeve, this is the basic principle of laminating and the more steel you use, providing the two parts have good contact, will always increase the overall strength. It won't be as strong as one piece of solid steel but it will still be stronger. Remingtons "Three rings of steel" works in the same way. One ring of steel inside another inside another. We laminate Jeep differential housings here at work by fitting 8mm wall thickness hollow bar inside the legs and attaching with multiple small puddle welds. We have tested the force required to bend the leg before and after laminating, and there is about a 30% increase in resistance to bending.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Shotgunlover
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Reged: 24/08/13
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #244237 - 23/03/14 12:22 AM


The question of the monobloc "step" being a possible weak spot has been a puzzle for me too. Sure it has an angle, on the other hand it has been succesfully used in double rifles. The most notable example that I can think of is the Beretta Sable OU. There appears to be no radiusing at the "step" in the Sable.

Another puzzle is the proportion of metal thickness apportioned between the barrel tube and the monobloc. I have seen (from the lines under the extractor, that the monobloc is often relegated to the thinnest possible section, acting more like a holding fixture, leaving the pressure containment to the barrel tube. Is this the best option?

As to the pictured project, I LIKE IT! A 6.5mm double must be a pleasure to hunt with.

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #244308 - 24/03/14 07:24 AM

Shotgunlover, a radius will not be seen from the outside as it transitions from the barrel spigot diameter to the shoulder and finishes well before the OD of the barrel. The mono-block has a very slightly larger radius at the mouth where the barrel spigot enters and when the two are pressed together, the shoulder of the barrel buts with the face of the mono-block, hiding the radius inside.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #244343 - 24/03/14 11:58 PM

W,
In theory, your method is entirely correct. However, if one were to x-ray any one of the hundreds of thousands of guns that Beretta has built using the mono-bloc system, I'd bet that both angles are 90 degrees, not radiused.

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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #244356 - 25/03/14 03:25 AM

That's a nice looking round, Ron. - It will be SO much fun once finished.
Good choice.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
      #244367 - 25/03/14 07:12 AM

Ron, I agree with you completely, most if not all factory guns would only have the tool nose radius and no more. I mentioned it only as some of the members were a bit concerned and I was trying to point out a way to join barrel to mono-block with built in strength.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #244649 - 30/03/14 01:31 PM

Here are three more photos, showing what I've accomplished this week. The first is of one of the canvas and leather cases that Jeff's Outfitters sells for drillings. I gutted the interior and rebuilt it to accomodate two barrel sets as well as scope, snap caps, oil bottle, cleaning kit, and scope caps.



The next photo shows the barrels with forend hanger and two spacers welded into place. The muzzle wedge is currently being held in place by friction alone.



The last photo shows the lower rib, fitted to the barrels and screwed to the two barrel spacers. As well, I have installed the sling swivel base. This rib will also be soldered in place during final assembly.



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:19 PM)

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #244714 - 31/03/14 07:43 PM

Looks great so far Ron!

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
      #246181 - 22/04/14 12:44 PM

Here are four photos to show the work that I've done recently on this project:



The photo above shows the holes drilled for the extractor stem and the guide rod, and the mortise machined into the rear face of the barrels to receive the extractor.



Here is the same view with the extractor fitted into place and the chambers and throats finished to full depth.



This photo shows the top rib finally fitted into place. In my experience, this is always the most labour-intensive part of these conversions. It requires many hours of smoking and filing to get a proper fit between the underside of the quarter rib area and the rapidly changing compound curves in the last 6"-7" of barrels and mono-block. The two screws anchor the rib very solidly and make the final soldering assembly much easier. The rear screw will be hidden under the rear scope base. The front screw will be hidden under the iron sight. The quarter rib and the front sight ramp will be milled down to less than half this height after things are soldered together.



This photo shows the small block that I filed up and had welded into place behind the forend hanger. This block was drilled and tapped 8-40 to accept the forward anchor screw in the top rib. I also filed up the short section of rear bottom rib and had it welded into place at the same time. I've done some work today, first with my Dremel Tool, then with polishing stones, to dress down the welds and even the area out. Still some final polishing required in this area, after soldering the ribs on, before bluing.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:20 PM)

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #246189 - 22/04/14 03:59 PM

Looks great Ron! Would you mind if I ask for a couple of measurements if you have the time? There are a couple of .410's at work that may be suitable for a conversion and Id like to compare them. What is the distance between firing pin holes, the width of the action at the watertable and through the fences and finally the length of the water table?

Are the ribs made by yourself?

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
      #246233 - 23/04/14 02:51 AM

M,
Pins, C to C : .826"
Water Table, width; 1.40"
Water Table, Length of flat section only: 1.74"

Rib was machined from a 24"x3/4"x1/2" piece of cold-rolled steel. I solder it to a piece of 1.5" square tube so that it can be held in milling vise while machining.

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #246243 - 23/04/14 06:29 AM

Many thanks for the measurements Ron.

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
      #246334 - 24/04/14 01:06 PM



This photo shows the second monoblock that I have for this project. In front of it are the three cartridges that I am trying to choose between for it. On the left is the .357 magnum, which I already load for. 14 grains of WW 296 drive the 150 grain Keith style bullet, cast out of linotype, at 1500 fps from a 6.5" barrel, so probably about 1800 fps from 24" bbls. I'd have to buy two new barrels and they'd set me back about $500.00. There would be the advantage of carrying both a rifle and a pistol in the same chambering.

The middle round is the .32-20 Winchester, a fine old cartridge which I've never owned. I think that I can pick up a pair of .303 barrels from 1910 Ross rifles, with excellent bores, for about $150.00. The 115 grain Lyman bullet, cast in linotype, can probably be driven at around 1800 fps as well. I would have to part with an additional $250.00 for a mould, handles, sizer die, top punch, shell holder, and loading dies.

On the right is the .218 Bee, another fine old, though largely forgotten cartridge. I see quite a few used .224 barrels for sale at gun shows so can probably pick up a pair for about $150.00. As with the .32-20, I'd have to spend about an additional $250.00 for all of the same loading equipment.

As info, I'm leaning towards the .32-20. It would be dynamite on turkeys, coyotes, etc! I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on the matter and reasons why? I want a small, low-intensity, rimmed cartridge. I also want to shoot cast lead bullets which are cheap to make and allow for unlimited shooting.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:21 PM)

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rglenz
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #246375 - 24/04/14 11:22 PM

Ron,
Back in my youth,I had a 32-20 Martini cadet. It's a great little cartridge,fun to shoot,I took lots of vermin with it. Now you have me thinking__I should have another!

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HistoricBore
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Reged: 28/09/11
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Loc: United Kingdom
Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: rglenz]
      #246376 - 24/04/14 11:45 PM

Hi guys

Here are some thoughts from Olde Englande. Since our pistols were confiscated back in 1996 I have been specialising in Rook rifles and their funny calibres. Much of that is not relevant to this thread, but I now do own and shoot two double hammer rifles, one an original .360 x 2.25" and the other is a converted .410 shotgun - see above. This was made in the 1920s and about ten years ago was converted to a double rifle by a very talented, now deceased, gunsmith for his own use. He sleeved the barrels with two second-hand SMLE .303 barrels, complete with left-hand twist, and then chambered it for .32-20. He regulated it for the mild 1100 fps loading, and it shoots to within an inch out to 100 yards. Interestingly the right barrel is 20 fps slower than the left barrel (wear?) so sometimes I hear a "pop, CRACK" when firing indoors. It shoots lead bullets fine even with a rate of twist that is 'too fast'...

Now for dimensions: Firing pins centre to centre is 0.84", table is 1.27" wide and 1.685" long.

The original .360 measures:

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HistoricBore
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: HistoricBore]
      #246377 - 24/04/14 11:50 PM

Sorry, hit the wrong key...

Centre to centre: 0.655", and the table is 1.25" wide but 2.05" long, to suit the 2.25" cartridge.

I would recommend everyone to have a .32-20. They are great fun to shoot, very accurate with nitro or black powder, and the Starline cases are thicker than, say, Remington and so last better. I use nickel Remington cases for BP loads: easy to tell the difference and easier to clean. They also regulate perfectly.

I have loaded this round up to a genuine 1900 fps but then my rifle does not regulate.

Good luck with the project!

HB

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: HistoricBore]
      #246380 - 25/04/14 12:45 AM

HB,
Thanks for some very useful information. What you say further reinforces my idea that the .32-20 is the best choice of the three.

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aromakr
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #246382 - 25/04/14 01:16 AM

Ron:
Years ago I had a Remington/Hepburn in a 32/20. Oh! what fun it was to shoot and load for. I might still have the dies around. I'll look and see, if so postage will get them to you.
Bob

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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: aromakr]
      #246386 - 25/04/14 02:15 AM

I-to would pick the .32/20 - I've never had one but have wanted one since I used to drool over the ctgs. (part box) in the hardware store as a kid. I assume some farmer needed just a few for a problem dog or maybe for a deer for his freezer - those rifle rounds were quite impressive to a 15 year old buying 4 or 5 shells for his 20 bore to go grouse hunting.(Dorchester, Ont.)

Yes - the .32/30, Ron. There are already lots of .357 rifles - Marlins and Winchesters.

Then there's the .218Bee - I shot over 7,500 rounds through my Ruger #1B and that rifle is it's new owner's favourite for plinking at the ranges.

Easy, low pressure Lil'Gun loads will drive 40gr. at 3,300fps with it from 26" tubes - no more pressure than factory ammo's 2,840fps w/45gr.

That easily makes it a 300yard ground hog rifle - or with TSX 45gr. at the same speed - a good little whitetailed deer rifle.

The #1 and that powder 'loaded to the nuts' will drive the 40gr. bullets at over 3,600fps.

At over 8,000 rounds with the original 400cases (now over 20 reloads each, because I lost some of the cases on a rat shoot), the rifles' owner is still using my original brass - wonder what the pressure actually is, the brass lasting so well - oh yeah - never been annealed, either. Tight chamber - good dies - Hornady, love 'em. The .408" rim makes that an exceptionally strong case.

Lots of good to say about the .218B Bee ctg.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: aromakr]
      #246387 - 25/04/14 02:19 AM

Bob,
A most gracious offer and one that I'd accept in a heartbeat. I've just this minute closed a deal on a pair of Ross barrels. Also, I note that Midway sells hard cast, 115 grain , sized and lubed bullets for the .32-20 for $47/500. It's not worth casting my own at that price!

Best,
Ron.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #246412 - 25/04/14 08:30 AM

Bob,
My best friend showed up at my door 1/2 hour ago with a set of as-new RCBS dies, 100 new Winchester primed brass, and a box of Dominion 115 grain bullets. I'm good to go!

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aromakr
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #246451 - 25/04/14 11:44 PM

Ron:
Sounds like your set. Have fun. I wish I had your talent and skills.
Bob

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savage458
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Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #246790 - 01/05/14 12:38 PM

Ron
Does your finishing reamer have a "built-in" freebore, and how long is it ? Some rifle makers give their Magnum cartridges EXTRA long freebore to reduce chamber pressure.

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