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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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TennHillBilly
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Suitable steels for monoblock?
      #244287 - 24/03/14 02:37 AM

I've been looking for something suitable for a 'first project' monoblock. I need something at least 2 1/2" square, and was looking for 4140. Wondering what other steels would be suitable? I'm starting with an AyA 12 ga. and thinking along the lines of 375 H & H.

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Dumprat
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #244290 - 24/03/14 03:31 AM

Remington actions and barrels are 4140.

I am going to use some 4140 HTSR( heat treated and streets relieved) it has a a Rockwell test in the low 30's and is nice to machine and still tough. But is also easy enough to file. Our manuals at work put it at 120,000psi strength.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #244518 - 28/03/14 06:11 AM

It sound to me as if you could benefit from a book, Converting Double Shotguns to Double Rifles, 2nd edition, by W. Ellis Brown (available at his website, or online at numerous sources, such as Brownell's. In it, he talks about monoblock steels, and numerous other things that will interest you on such a project.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #244572 - 29/03/14 06:26 AM

Thanks, yes I have the Brown book. Enclosed pic of 2 pieces of 4140 with which to attempt a 2 using

his technique. The action is 12ga.






Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:41 PM)

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245538 - 12/04/14 12:17 AM

Since I do not have a regular milling machine, I have to resort to a lot of handwork. I'm starting by fitting the 'dollshead' into the action since I believe everything follows. Cutting this block on my band saw has been tedious....this is rather tough stuff. I have a homemade milling machine setup on my little 7 X 10 minilathe. A design from Varmint Al's website. I can take a few thous each pass but slow going. The Doll'shead is now at smoke and sand stage. The black marker line is the final angle to the standing breach.





Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:42 PM)

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Dumprat
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245543 - 12/04/14 01:32 AM

Nothing wrong with hand work if you have the patience to do it right. This should be an interesting project.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245606 - 13/04/14 07:07 AM

Some more work with files and smoke. I'm about .001 too thick on the left, some more filing. I smoke the surface and drag my 'angle thingy' across the surface to find the high spots. The standing breech is about 88-89 degrees tilting forward. The side clips while desirable, make the fitting go more slowly since you've basically have 2 angles to work with. I've scribed a line through the soot to show the barrel's outline, soon I'll starting cutting away excess metal, but figured the more metal would make flat filing easier......one man's opinion! You can barely see where I've notched on either side to get near the side clips. Soon I'll start filing the angle to keep moving the block rearward.





Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:42 PM)

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245668 - 14/04/14 09:33 AM

Spent an hour or so today working on the block. It was time to start mitering the edges to accommodate the side clips. The shotgun barrels show how they are angled. I smoked up the face and put it in place the crossbolt holds it firmly. I stood the action on end and reached inside to depress the strikers against the smoked face. That gave me a wee, tiny spot to make a punch mark. I mounted the face perpendicular to the center drill in my press and drilled about a heavy 1/16th" deep. Hope I ain't boring you Guys!








Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:43 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245677 - 14/04/14 01:05 PM

Not at all, it is always interesting to see how other people go about making things.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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ruffcountry
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #245681 - 14/04/14 02:38 PM

I find it inspiring .thanks

--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: ruffcountry]
      #245733 - 15/04/14 04:42 AM

Thanks! I decided I was nearing the 'moment of truth' in that I had to drill the bores to make sure I was going to have everything line up. I chucked the block in my machinist vise mounted on the drill press and set the face to zero. That left the bottom...watertable.. at a slight angle which should mirror the standing breech angle of about 88 degrees. I started with about a 5/16th's bit since I did not want the bit to flex. To make sure I was centered, I started the bit and saw it was a thousand's or so off center from my center drilled starter. A tap or two lined it up and drilled. As near as can I can measure with my digital mike, I'm about .002 off. Looking down the holes with a bright light, The strikers appear to be dead center in the holes.



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:43 PM)

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Shotgunlover
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245795 - 15/04/14 11:32 PM

TennHB,

I see that you that you did not machine the lumps integral to the monobloc. Presumably you will dovtail the lumps later. How did you arrive at this solution? I say solution because trying to fit lumps and sideclips at one go is one hell of a fiddly job.

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #245796 - 16/04/14 12:02 AM

You're correct! If you look back to the first couple of pics, you can see the beginnings of the the lumps in the form of a 'T'....yet to be fully machined. You can see as yet I have not fully stripped the action as is seen in Brown's book. I suppose that, without the internal parts, might make working on a 'true' monoblock easier but I can't get my mind around that with no real milling machine (Wonder if H & H had one back in the 1800's?) One would need about a 2 1/2" square block to do it. It does make one appreciate the building of a gun. On the other hand, the 'Smith' probably had a roughed out block handed to him by the 12 year old apprentice who labored for days cutting and filing! I think the most difficult gun I built was a wheellock pistol. I can't count the number of times I took it apart trying to figure why it didn't work. One day, I put a bit of powder in the pan and it actually fired......scared me so bad I almost dropped it. Re-discovering 500 year old technology! Bill

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Shotgunlover
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245810 - 16/04/14 03:22 AM

TennHB,

There was toil but there were tricks that old craftsmen used as well. When I jointed my first SXS I toiled for ever to get a perfect fit, then I saw the trick used by Spanish jointers and kicked my self for not having thought of it. They first fit the lumps and breech to the action but without the crosspin in place, and before they mill the barrel hook. When they have everything fit just right they put a two layers of card paper under the breech end of the barrels and hold everything tight together and center punch the lumps for the cross pin. Once the cross pin is in, and the hook milled on the barrels so that they will ride on the pin, they smoke in the barrels at the breech face. So simple and so fast!

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #245826 - 16/04/14 05:08 AM

No question, any of these gunmakers have a bunch of tricks that probably took decades to work out. I enjoy watching some of the Maker videos on Utube and see the hand finish work that goes into a gun. Basically, the machines get rid of a lot of unwanted metal fast. My idea on the lumps: if you note the forearm fit to the barrel, it appears to make up about a 9+mm 'hole'. My idea is to drill such a hole first in the lump before turning it into bites. I have to figure some way to mount the lumps in the block in some temporary fashion so as to be able to silver braze the pieces together. The object to get as good a fit as possible to lesson the hand work.





Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:44 PM)

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Shotgunlover
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #245833 - 16/04/14 05:35 AM

Tenn HB,

Sounds logical, but you note that the Spanish fitters' trick involves making the hole after they fit the lumps in the action. Not saying it is the only way but it is the easy way.

Also, have you thought of a replaceable shoe in the hook? With such a shoe you give yourself the luxury of making mistakes, in case you do not get the fit right the first time you try again with a new shoe. In my prototype SXS I incorporated removable shoes both in the cross pin and the rear lump where the underbolt engages the lump. You can see it here
http://www.oplognosia.com/english/sideBySide.php

scroll down to the subheading barrels and see the pic.

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #245901 - 16/04/14 11:53 PM

I agree...at least in theory...it would seem like the best way. I'll have to wait until I get the lumps machined down to the more appropriate sized 'T' and machine the 'T' slot in the block. Again, since I don't have a full sized milling machine, these will be a challenge. But, that, in part, is what this is all about. Can it be done without heavy machinery? I'll have to strip the action down which I'm waiting to do. When I bought the gun, I wasn't sure if I was going to cut the barrels down,but, I found they were in pretty decent shape. and wanted to refinish the stock, which I'm fairly close to finishing. I carved a 'shadowline' around the cheekpiece and have put about 8 coats of truoil on it, replaced the buttplate with an original and have ordered a white spacer to dress it up a bit. P.S. your design is rather elegant, I'm still absorbing your info!



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:44 PM)

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #246391 - 25/04/14 03:58 AM

I decided that I had to come up with another solution to the milling task. I saw examples on You Tube that one could mill with a drill press. So, I bought a cheap....inexpensive..... 4"cross slide vise off ebay for $41 shipped. I used a 3/8" 4 flute end mill and a woodruff cutter I had. Milling the main slot took two passes. Seems too shallow causes more 'chatter', so I made the 2nd pass a little deeper. I had to tighten the gibs on the vise to lessen vibration. Suffice it to say: it can be done! A mention as to length on the block, make it long enough to carry the flats on the forearm. Also, if you try this for the first time, make sure to wear eye protection and gloves won't hurt! The milling.....maybe because of inexperience or the inability to control speed on the drill press adequately, a million tiny, wee, small, splinters of steel are thrown about. I still have to make another pass on one side with the woodruff cutter. It's getting very near decision time for getting barrels. Haven't decided which way to go. I thinking I'd like 416 Rigby on the one hand, or 45-70 on the other......I have a Ruger #1 in 416 and like the round!










Spent a couple hours picking out microscopic splinters JUST by picking the block up from the vise







Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:44 PM)

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #246753 - 30/04/14 11:30 PM

A pic of the lumps loosely fitted to the block. I need to make one more pass on one side with the woodruff cutter to allow a bit more lateral movement, so as to line everything up before silver brazing. The front must be radiused to fit the slot. I milled the top portion within a thousand's or so and next will mill the bottom portions off to within a few thous so as to get a precise fit into the action with files, stones, etc.. My plan is to cut out some of the excess 'bites' areas to minimize final work.



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:45 PM)

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Shotgunlover
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #246884 - 03/05/14 03:47 AM

Seeing the composite monobloc it is apparent that it makes sense for production with limited means. It also gives some room for correction if the lump dimensions do not work out, you can always change it it is a "forgiving" way to build.

It has given me ideas for a barrel-less Westely Richards droplock I have. Thank you!

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #246895 - 03/05/14 07:39 AM

Agreed, my friend! I don't think I would ever attempt a solid block with my limited resources. I've silver soldered/brazed a lot of stuff over the years and I think there's plenty of meat here to have a solid piece. To generate enough heat for something like this, I use one of the cheap ice melting torches and a propane tank. Too concentrate more heat, I use a MAP gas torch. However the new 'Mapp' gas is not the same as the old....they stopped making it. I've machined as much as I dare on the lumps, leaving several thousands for final fitting. I need to order some more end mills, having dulled the last one. I think one should have used the more expensive cobalt and perhaps have started with a 'roughing' bit. I've left enough material up front so as to...hopefully... drill a hole for the pivot, rather than trying to cut a 'notch'. I'm almost at the stopping point until I decide on and locate the barrels. Those will have to go the machine shop for fitting.



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:45 PM)

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #246966 - 05/05/14 02:04 AM

This is some progress on the stock. I'm showing my 'other double rifle': a swivel breech flintlock in .36 cal. All the lockworks were scratchbuilt using the Waters book. I have finish work to be done on the stock, but I have to be in the mood to do the tedious wood work. I added the 'whiteline' piece to the buttplate and found an original AyA buttplate. Considering the 'basketcase' stock, if all else fails, I'll have a nice 12 ga!

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #247470 - 16/05/14 04:27 AM

Pic of the 'Lumps' finally worked to fit the action, width wise. It's mounted in the mostly stripped action. Stripping the action proved to be a daunting task! You will note in the pic that the hinge pin is covered with a cap screw on each side. The AyA pin drives from 'left to right'.....ask me how I learned that! The pin is staked in place. Best to research your action carefully before tackling this step. The screws are all engraved in this action, built in the sixties. I had to grind drivers....turnscrews if you wish... to fit each of the screws. The cap screws were the most difficult to get out....without ruining the slots and engraving. I'm still hesitant to start cutting bites and hinge lug 'til I'm positive what I'm doing. I've started by making a thin aluminum pattern to get the things lined up. A paper pattern is just too flimsy! The pin is just over an 11/32's bit,, ( I think it miked at 8.83mm). I wish to start with a hole rather than notching. My thinking right now is to use a drop of epoxy to hold the lumps and block in proper alignment until brazing. I've 'step drilled' the block out to 5/8's. I figure the barrels will measure at about 1"+, within the monoblock. My plan is for .458 bores, blanks are generally in the 1.20" range. I have the pattern, but have yet to grind the special tool to remove the tumblers from the action.

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Shotgunlover
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #247490 - 17/05/14 04:28 AM

Trying to fit all contact surfaces simultaneously is bound to be hard. In your position I would use some tricks.

The areas that need full contact are the front lump and barrel hook on all sides, the front of the rear lump (the famous fitting on the circle), the breech ends to the breech face.

The fit must clear the smoke on the sides of the rear lump and between barrel and action flats to accomodate the flexing of the action on firing.

So, I would deliberately shave off a slice, let us say 1.5mm from the front of the rear lump, leaving a gap. This would allow attention to be focused on the proper fitting of the front lump and the breech ends. When these parts are fitted then I would solder a slice of steel on the front of the rear lump and fit that in so it makes contact with the action bridge. The barrels would then be fitted on the circle, and also would be easily refittable in the future if any play develops.

Breaking the fitting down into manageable chunks that you can do one at a time is preferable to trying to fit all surfaces in one go, this is my experience. Additionally the use of replaceable shoes where the do some good, as in the barrel hook, rear bite and the front of the rear lump, make sense from the repair angle. Check out the Parker collectors pages for the replaceable shoes on the bite, it is a nifty idea.

Hope the above makes sense.

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #247520 - 18/05/14 08:36 AM

Makes perfect sense! Brown's book in the section on rehinging uses a similar technique with a piece of old shotgun barrel.....cut off a small section, cut it in half: a crescent, peen it in and silver solder! The geometry of the lumps and bites: maybe they follow a geometric pattern......or, just what works! As you point out, the front of the rear bite is the only circle.
Drilled the first hole 3/16" as a start. I'll work up to the 11/32d's which will then need to be reamed the final few thousands. Not having brazed the lumps as yet will allow me to have a little play, though the center of the hinge to the rear of the back lump is fixed....if that makes sense?
Finished stripping the action.....does it need some cleaning!

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