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Birdhunter50
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Ruger Red Label 45-70
      #109435 - 10/07/08 10:36 PM

The following are pictures of a Ruger Red Label that I converted to a 45-70 for a friend in Florida. I am including a couple of pictures of the construction process on this rifle. He insisted on having a red dot mounted on it and I insisted that he also needed irons mounted on it so he got both. His eyes make it difficult for him to use iron sights so I mounted day glow sights that he will be able to use.

Some things that might need to be explained. First I appologise for the quality of these pictures, they were taken some time ago on our old digi cam and I am not much of a photographer. I would not have had these to show you except the owner wanted it all documented on film. You will note that my shop is always a mess, no excuses, just too busy with too little space.

In one or two of these you will see that I bored the monoblock out before cutting all the barrels off, this was done to insure a better alignment of the new bore with the monoblock. The barrels were first cut off at different lengths, the longer one was line bored first then cut back to 1/4 inch of the mono., next the other one was line bored and it was cut back. In the chambering picture you will notice a C clamp , it is holding the ejectors in tight to the mono. while I finish up the chambers. There may be other questions and I will answer them as I get time.
Bob H.





















Edited by CptCurl (08/02/14 10:44 PM)


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4seventy
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109470 - 11/07/08 08:23 AM

Bob,
I was just about to post on the 101 thread asking if you could give some details/photos of your Red Label conversion, but you're ahead of me.
No need to appologise for the photos, they're fine.
I'm on my way to a job right now and don't have any time at the moment, but I'll get back to this thread in a day or so to find out more about this rifle.
Thanks for posting!


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tinker
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #109471 - 11/07/08 08:29 AM

Bob-

It appears you spent a good bit of time with the 'old guys' in the workshop as a kid.
I can see you get every bit of utility out of your equipment there -- as the old fat man would say 'use your head, save your ass'

Thanks for sharing the images of your setup.
Your good 'walking around sense' shows in your product and in your process.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #109521 - 11/07/08 10:59 PM

I found some more pictures of the Red Label conversion and also got the owners permission to show you a couple of his hunting shots along with the rifle pictures. This first shot shows the front spacer held in place with a hose clamp and the temporary front sight which which was fitted to a collar that is held on by a friction fit. Crude but good enough to regulate the gun with till other methods could be used.



This is a better shot showing how I bored the monoblock and kept it in alignment on the lathe.


This is a shot of the mid spacer that has just be soldered in using Brownell's Hi Force 44.


This shot shows the Ruger forend spacers in place between the already mounted barrels.


This is a shot of the new rifle rib in place on the new barrels.


This is a shot of the Ruger with the first scope mount showing, I eventually made this with two different scope ring mounting systems because the owner found some new rings he liked better.


This shot shows the partially finished rifle with the temporary sights on it, the back sight is an old Remington ramp sight solder to the barrel for regulating only.


These two are of the new owner and his first kill with the new rifle.





Edited by CptCurl (08/02/14 10:45 PM)


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xsheadspace
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109725 - 14/07/08 10:06 PM

Egad! Looks just like my old Atlas 54" bed lathe there! Fine looking job. What loads can the Ruger tolerate? That's how I reamed the Merkel chambers, using the tailstock to align the barrels, before I cut them off.

--------------------
hippie redneck geezer


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4seventy
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #110077 - 20/07/08 07:52 PM

Bob,
Great photos and details, thanks again for posting them.
Tell me, did you find this a big, or in any way difficult job?
Would you ever do another conversion on the Red Label?
How would you compare the work required to do this Red Label O/U compared to a SxS conversion?

I've handled and shot 3 different Red Label double rifles.
They are fast to get on target!

Edited by 4seventy (20/07/08 08:26 PM)


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #110161 - 21/07/08 10:04 PM

4seventy,
I don't think it was any worse than doing a side by side but the surprising part for me, was how much trouble I had getting it regulated. It started out great when shooting it with temporary spacers and clamps, but when I started working with it after soldering it up, it started getting stubborn. I wound up shooting almost 200 loads through it before I got it regged and sighted in! In theory, it should be easier to regulate an over & under, but this one proved that not to be true. The next one might just fall in line and be easy, you never know.
The main thing that was different was the spring loaded ejectors, you need to be very careful with them, both during dis-assembly and when building them up for the 45-70 rims. They have stiff springs behind them ! They must be removed before clamping the monoblock in the vise to work on it.
If a person wasn't careful, he could end up shooting an ejector clear across the room, and in my shop, that would never do!
The gun is regulated for 300 H.P. bullets with a moderate dose of IMR 4198 for about 1500 FPS or so. Not a heavy loading by any means, but it will shoot clear through hogs and black bears, and I think that is more than enough for most North American game. Looking back, it could have stood heavier loads, but at the time, because I knew Ruger used cast parts in it, we decided to hold the loads down, somewhat. I now feel the frame is up to about any 45-70 loadings except the Ruger Number One loads. As I said, I don't see any reason to stress the action more than necessary.
Would I do another one? Yes, but not in any hotrod calibers. The 45-70 is just about perfect for this conversion.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: xsheadspace]
      #110163 - 21/07/08 10:24 PM

xsheadspace,
You are right on the money, that is an Atlas lathe, the only one I owned at the time. It is not much compaired to other lathes but it does fairly well on the simple things, if I don't push it too hard. It is an "Old Man's" lathe, but that's O.K., I am an old man. I try not to get in too much of a hurry when machining anything. I have since purchased another Atlas just to do barrel conturing. They work O.K. for me if I keep my head about me. I did shell out a forward and revese box awhile back because I forgot to unclamp the saddle after doing a facing operation. When I engaged the leadscrew the next time, it protested for a second and then shelled out in dramatic fashion! That cost me a little over $100.00, but it was my own fault and I will have to learn to pay closer attention. I very seldom have to lock the saddle down and when I do it again, you can bet I will release it right afterwards!
As I said, they are not much compaired to some other lathes but I am glad to have it. When I did my first conversion, I didn't have either a lathe or a milling machine and had to hire my buddies to do some of the work for me on their machines. It didn't take long for me to decide that I NEEDED my own lathe and mill.
The loads we used to regulate this were at the top end of the bottom catagory, for trapdoors, or maybe just a little more. I'm sure the Ruger COULD stand more, but why bother. This gun with the 300 grain H.P. loads moving at around 1500 FPS has shot through virtually everything that has been hit with it. No one has gotten a shot at Moose or Elk with it, yet, but it is only a matter of time. I have an open request in to all my buddies that if they ever recover a slug from a game animal, I would like to see a picture of it at least, to determine how the slug expanded. No one has sent me one yet, but I am hopeful.
I hear a lot of talk about what the 45-70 won't do, so here's a little known fact for you guys out there. The only Elephant ever killed in my home state of Iowa, was shot and killed with a 45/70 Trapdoor Springfield by an old veteran after several people had tried to down it with more modern guns. It was a female circus elephant that went on a rampage and got loose and torn up a bunch of the circus. They laid her to rest right where she fell and our statewide newspaper did a big article about it at the time. I don't know what the load was for sure, but I would be willing to bet that it was the old 405 grain service load for the trapdoor. Back then, that was all that was available to shoot.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #239712 - 24/12/13 02:21 AM

Some people have recently asked some questions about this Ruger Red Label conversion so I thought I would add a couple of remarks and bring it back up to the top. Some folks out there seem to doubt the strength of the Ruger action, but I can tell you for sure that it is plenty strong enough. Tom Ondrus had one of the original Rugers in 45-70 that was built by Dietrich Apel. Apel worked with Bill Ruger when they first brought out the Red Label and Bill was going to make the 45-70 a Ruger two barrel option right from the beginning.

Tom told me that they made up 12 to 15 of them in 45-70 and one in 300 H. & H. Dietrich said he would not do another one in 300 H. & H., not because the gun wouldn't stand the recoil, but because it was so hard to get it regulated. The project finally was called off by Bill Ruger himself because it was said that they couldn't get them to regulate well enough to suit Bill.

I personally think that another reason is the fact that regulating these guns is very time and labor intensive, and that by the time the guns were finished, there may not have been the profit margin needed to cover the expense. Bill Ruger was a gun designing genious. He had the habit of forcasting what would sell well to the American public before other gun companies could think of them. People constantly told him that the models he planned to bring out next, would not sell at that time. He was way ahead of the curve on several things. This one proves that he brought up the idea of a combination 20 gauge over and under combined with a set of double rifle barrels. The problem was that on this one, he was just too early for the public to be interested in them yet

I have seen pictures of one of the original Ruger 45/70's. Tom Ondrus had it for sale and offered it to me, but at the time we converted this one, I had not seen it. I didn't even know that Bill Ruger himself, had authorised the building of them. Ironically, this gun was built in conjusctiopn with the ideas of the present owner, and between us we decided to keep the gun as close as possible to the original 20 gauge. The barrels were turned to the same diameter as the 20 gauge barrels, up to the front of the forend wood. That way the forend could be reused and the spacers would still fit.

Then I turned them down to the rifle diameter at the muzzles and blended them together to get the current profile. After getting the spacers back on it, and the top rib fitted, the gun looks just like one of the Ruger original rifles. Aside from building up the ejectors, the only new parts used were the barrels, the top rib, the swivels, and the sights. The donor gun for this project was a Red Label that someone had tried to put screw in choke tubes into, and had drilled out the sides of the barrels, ruining the factory chokes. The owner of this gun uses it to hunt wild hogs and deer down in Florida, very successfully, I might add.


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DarylS
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #239714 - 24/12/13 04:38 AM

That is quite a project - thanks for sharing it with us in such detail, Birdhunter50.

Further to that load - the black powder .45/90 load of the 1880's was a 300gr. bullet at approx. 1,584fps.

1,584 is exactly the velocity Ross Seyfied's .44 mag. pressure for .45 Colt loading gave me in a Winchester Trapper 16" bl.

I shot 2 elk with that load using an RCBS 300gr. HP (my mould conversion) cast bullet. The elk were approximately 80 and 100 yards distance.

There are no flies on that load for most big gamed shooting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #239720 - 24/12/13 09:12 AM

In MN Tech. College, gunsmithing school, a guy, from MN, built a .470 on a Ruger Red Label 12 gauge, which worked out just fine.

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Shackleton
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #239722 - 24/12/13 11:01 AM

Great work on that rifle-didn't see the thread until now-I don't imagine that hog went very far after being hit. Out of curiosity, where in IA are you located? Might have to look you up for a .22 hornet conversion if I ever get a donor .410 shotgun I like.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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4seventy
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #239726 - 24/12/13 01:07 PM

Quote:

I didn't even know that Bill Ruger himself, had authorised the building of them.




Bill Ruger allowed a small number of gunmakers to buy "virgin" red label monoblocs for the purpose of building double rifles.
Ron Webb built a few Red Label DR's, some of which used virgin monoblocs, here in Australia back in the late 80's and into the 90's.

Jack Miller (Aus) also built a scoped Red Label DR in .375 H&H flanged magnum.
He used one of the early blued 20G frames.


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Caprivi
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #239727 - 24/12/13 01:55 PM

Very nice step by step pictures. Thank you.
Cool project and great results


As to "what will the Red Label take" I have seen 20ga in 7x65R, 300, 338win on up to 500/416, the 12ga in 500NE, there are way more than a few 45/70's out there, besides the Heym, Paul Jaeger or Ruger built.
Butch Searcy built some as did Rogue River I believe.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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4seventy
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Caprivi]
      #239728 - 24/12/13 02:05 PM

I think Jim Wisner built some too.

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alexbeer
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #239730 - 24/12/13 04:06 PM

Dont know if anyone was interested, but amongst my Ruger bits I still have quite a number of the "virgin" Red Lable mono blocks.
Not sure how many 20 or 12 gauge ones but some of each,
Will have to check.

Best
ALEX

--------------------

Details matter!


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AkMike
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: alexbeer]
      #239735 - 24/12/13 06:45 PM

That looks like yet another very well done conversion Bob!
Congratulations!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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DarylS
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: AkMike]
      #239746 - 25/12/13 03:50 AM

Alex - you are a treasure, for sure!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: AkMike]
      #239748 - 25/12/13 04:03 AM

Birdhunter: ".... because I knew Ruger used cast parts in it, we decided to hold the loads down, somewhat. I now feel the frame is up to about any 45-70 loadings"

Caprivi: "I have seen 20ga in 7x65R, 300, 338win on up to 500/416, the 12ga in 500NE"
___________________________________________

Nothing wrong with casting, especially when done the way Ruger does it. The particular alloy steel formed by the casting is much more important than the casting process itself. Modern high strength alloy steels are way different from earlier days, when most all double frames were made from only mild steel, low carbon steel, usually color case hardened; one can't compare the two.


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4seventy
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: alexbeer]
      #239761 - 25/12/13 07:50 PM

Quote:

Dont know if anyone was interested, but amongst my Ruger bits I still have quite a number of the "virgin" Red Lable mono blocks.
Not sure how many 20 or 12 gauge ones but some of each,
Will have to check.

Best
ALEX




I guess they would have to be the ones Ron Webb acquired from Ruger back in the early 90's?
Ron was the only one to get hold of "virgin" red label monoblocs in Australia as far as I know.
Even the .375 flanged magnum which Jack Miller built, used a monobloc he obtained from Ron.
I remember that when Ron retired in the mid 90's, that most of his gunsmithing tools and stock ended up down in Tassie.

I always figured that you would have most likely ended up with some of that stuff Alex.

Would be nice to know what red label bits you have besides the monoblocs.


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dpcd67
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #240081 - 03/01/14 07:32 AM

No need to question the strength of Ruger's cast parts; be assured they are of modern alloy steel and fully as strong as forged or milled steel. Consider that the backthrust of a very hot loaded 45-70 is still less, or no more than, a magnum 12 gauge, then you will see why Rugers are plenty strong enough for double rifles.
Very nice rifle, BTW.


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4seventy
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: dpcd67]
      #240094 - 03/01/14 12:21 PM

Quote:

No need to question the strength of Ruger's cast parts;



I agree.
The design of the red label action is also very strong. The jointing and bolting system is far superior when compared to many other O/U types.


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Ckhobart
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #241559 - 01/02/14 01:19 PM

Neat build, cool history too!

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twobobbwana
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #241696 - 04/02/14 11:50 AM

A mate of mine has/had a 500 3" that Ron Webb built on Red Label action. 12 guage I would suggest.

I also remember Ron had a Mini 14 that he converted into .308 1 1/2" and a 10/22 he'd redone to a Mannlicher stock.

A fella I knew had a Ruger 44 carbine that Webby also converted to a takedown.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Ruger Red Label 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #241813 - 06/02/14 01:01 AM

I'm sure many different cartridges would work in the 20 and 12 gauge Red Labels. I may do another one one of these days if I can ever find a donor gun cheap enough. They have really gone up in price over here!

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