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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
my 12 bore finished
      #220117 - 24/11/12 06:55 AM

This is the 12 bore I built from a J.P. Sauer 12g the barrels had been ruined so not much left other than work on the bore gun. I used Savage Model 210 1-35 twist rifled take off barrels the barrels were cut and silver soldered in the monobloc. The barrels measure 23.5 inches and chambered for 2 3/4 inch. I used the original ribs and re-cut the forearm hook for the new barrels it was tig welded in for strength. I made the quarter rib and it is screwed in to the rib, I put reinforced the ribs under the front sight and quarter rib as they are a little thinner than I liked for screws. Will see how they hold up. I have another rib but have not decided if it warrants using.
I also re-cut the checkering and worked out all the million dents in the wood and put a light coat of finish on.
I am working on loads now, tried the Lyman slug but did not like the results so back to the drawing board for another trial it shoots rather well just need to work up a load I like.
While looking for a set of barrels to restore the Sauer I was offered a complete shotgun with the serial number very close to the one I had, So I built the bore gun and restored the shotgun and now have a relative close matching set of 12 bore and 12g shotgun. Just need to make some accessories for them and a case. You never know what will turn up when you start looking for something. Both shotguns had been neglected for many years and I had to completely disassemble them and clean years of rust old oil and grease and crap out of the actions.





Edited by CptCurl (25/11/12 03:48 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #220120 - 24/11/12 07:03 AM

Way to go Rolland. How's it shoot & with what? The barrel length looks perfect - to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #220131 - 24/11/12 09:46 AM

Nice Job Rolland! I'm glad to see that the barrels worked out well for you. How well did they regulate for you? I like your scope mounting setup and I think you will like it too. Bob

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Rolland
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Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #220138 - 24/11/12 11:02 AM

I am working up a load now it does not like the Lyman loads (30g WSI and a AA wad in a WAA shell fold crimp), It is putting both slugs about 3 inches apart at 25 yards so I will try increasing the powder and see with the Lyman. I am also going to try the DGL sabot from Ballistic Products its a 7/8 oz slug. The barrel lenght allows the gun to balance really well. If anyone has any pet loads they think might work I am open to direction. I have some Clays and Red Dot, try some loads with these also.

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #220146 - 24/11/12 03:47 PM

I think clays and red dot are too fast. SR7625 would be the fastest I'd try - and would try longshot if I had some.

My own work was all with round balls and SR4756 and SR7625 powders. I started with cup wads (gas check off a WWAA12) cup-up under the undersized ball and the top load I could find for a 1 1/8ounce charge of shot with that powder. I used fiber wads to get the correct height for folded crimps. I then increased the charge to obtain 1,550fps and felt I'd hit close to what the original 7 dram BP (191gr.) load ran - ie: 1,550fps. It worked well in my double shooting like a rifle to 50yards and like an exceptional smoothbore to 10 meters. I was able to hold offhand on a 12" steel plate at that range, shooting offhand and alternating barrels, right, left, reload, right, left. I also mounted a scope on the shotgun for load testing - no rifling.
See Ed huble's thrad on 12 bore from hell. Start on page 1 if not familiar with the thread and you will find good 'data' in there somewhere for using something like H4227- slow pistol, fast rifle powder. Wads, crimps and primers are very important for good ignition with the slow powders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #220254 - 26/11/12 06:04 AM

Well done Rolland.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
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Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #220266 - 26/11/12 11:13 AM

I got a chance to go out today and try some of my loads I had made up.
1. AA hull with 30g WSI lyman slug, AA white wad folded crimp, this load the gun did not like it consistantly shot high right. and 4-6 inches apart.
2. Fiocchi hull plastic base, 21g Clays Fio 616 primer LBC Bluforce sabot slug 7/8 oz roll crimp from Ballistic products this one shot best putting both slugs 2 inches apart at 50 yards and low recoil..
Next step is to up the powder load and see what happens. I want to try some other slugs but have not had time to work up any other loads.
Since I am using the Savage barrels I would assume that the sabot style slugs will be the best choice but open to most anything.
I have some Magtech brass coming and thought I might work up a round ball load just for grins.

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #220318 - 27/11/12 03:49 AM

Don't forget the capability of using a cloth patch on those balls. If your rifle prefers lighter slugs, a round ball will be better than any foster-type slug, for range and penetration. The round ball can be hardened lead, whereas the hollow based slugs are soft and lack sectional density.
The cloth patch can also take up the extra room that is inside a brass hull, yet compress around the ball to grip the rifling and shoot cleanly- if lubricated. I like Track's mink oil or neetsfoot oil. For a stiffer lube for warmer climates, either mixed with about 40/60 with beeswax will work.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:22 PM)

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Rolland
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #220343 - 27/11/12 11:08 AM

Daryl
Are those black powder or smokeless loads. That looks like a good project.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #220352 - 27/11/12 02:46 PM

Just out of interest, can a rifled 12-bore be used in a shotgun only deer season?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: NitroX]
      #220360 - 27/11/12 07:38 PM

good question, I hunt in Arizona and we don't have a shotgun only hunt for big game as far as I know.

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Rolland
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #220361 - 27/11/12 07:41 PM

Quote:

Don't forget the capability of using a cloth patch on those balls. If your rifle prefers lighter slugs, a round ball will be better than any foster-type slug, for range and penetration. The round ball can be hardened lead, whereas the hollow based slugs are soft and lack sectional density.
The cloth patch can also take up the extra room that is inside a brass hull, yet compress around the ball to grip the rifling and shoot cleanly- if lubricated. I like Track's mink oil or neetsfoot oil. For a stiffer lube for warmer climates, either mixed with about 40/60 with beeswax will work.




Where could I obtain a handful of round balls, Dixie wants 65. for one hundred I don't need that many do see if they will work. Would be willing to pay for them and postage if anyone had some they would part with.

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:22 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #220394 - 28/11/12 03:18 AM

Rolland

www.trackoftheowlf.com sells balls up to about .760" in little bags of 25.

Yes - they are BP loads and are 2.4" Magtec cases in 16 bore for my Husky. The shot loads are 1 ounce of 7 1/2's with 2 1/4 drams of 2F.

The patched, undersized .662" balls were more accurate than the larger .690" balls that engraved 1/2 way the straight rifling. The bore diameter is a slightly tight 15 bore at .675". The rifled bore is 13 gauge, ie: .705" groove to groove. Both chambers are identical, however the left is for paper cases and the right meant for BP and round ball - that's the way the gun was built. Usually the left bore is rifled, straight or spiral and only up to 20 bore, even if the other is a 16. Mine is an odd ball.

Track can fix you up with any ball size you want. Since the 7/8ounce slugs regulated the best, I'd be trying a 15 or 14 bore ball in a cup wad with about 150gr. 2F to start. A fold crimp will do on such a light load in a 2 3/4" hull, with card wad hard on the powder and whatever wad is needed between that and the cup wad with ball. The full sized cup wad will hold the ball in the middle of the bore and 'take' the rifling just fine.

John - in the States with shotgun-only seasons, I've been told rifled shotguns shooting sabots with 250gr. to 400gr. .45 and .50 cal. bullets are the norm for shooting deer.

The season that was designed around farmer safety, ie: using smoothbores and buck shot or Foster hollow based slugs, then on the market, that have a max range of less than 800yards, are now being hunted by people (motivated by the desire of companies for producing merchandise to make more money) shooting virtually .45/90 and .50/110 Winchester loads (up to 350gr. in .50 cal sabots in rifled barrels, running upwards of 1,600fps) having a 'danger' range in excess of 2 miles.

Such is progress & the way greed for the almighty dollar ruins seasons. Seasons have already been cancelled here and in the States due to the 'modernization' of firearms and loads. Up here, we lost our 'Primitive Weapons' moose hunt because of scope sighted, bolt action muzzleloading rifles- 2 years after the first "Knight" rifles showed up.

In whatever sport, there are always "Rule Pushers". People who just cannot abide by the rules or flavor of the contest, but must push the limits of the rule to try to gain an advantage, however slight. In a free market society, there is always someone who will make a product for that clientel, perceived or imagined if there is a dollar in it.

Sometimes it helps man achieve great things, sometimes it just f-cks up a good thing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ardent
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Reged: 19/11/12
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #220482 - 29/11/12 04:00 AM

Too neat, my project is on a Greener Empire frame and I thought long and hard about a rifles 12 bore before deciding on bland of .475 rifle bores. Always thought a 12 bore with brass cased loads as per Darryl above, with conical slugs seated out as standard bullets, would be quite something. I'd be investigating Trail Boss powder, likely the bulkiest smokeless, the sort of burn rate you're looking for, and you could likely use a felt wad for 100% load density.

--------------------
www.morrisonarms.com

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
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Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Ardent]
      #220621 - 30/11/12 12:32 PM

Quote:

Too neat, my project is on a Greener Empire frame and I thought long and hard about a rifles 12 bore before deciding on bland of .475 rifle bores. Always thought a 12 bore with brass cased loads as per Darryl above, with conical slugs seated out as standard bullets, would be quite something. I'd be investigating Trail Boss powder, likely the bulkiest smokeless, the sort of burn rate you're looking for, and you could likely use a felt wad for 100% load density.



I am to familiar with Trail Boss powder so I did some research on the net but don't see anyone using it for shotguns. Do you have any information on shotgun loadings. Nice work on the double build they are fun to do.

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Ardent
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #220627 - 30/11/12 01:42 PM

While I wouldn't say this is compatible right off with the 12 bore, it is interesting and shows the powder's incredible versatility. They say any rifle cartridge, I'd ask IMR it might apply to your 12 bore too and would make the job far easier. It produces exactly the velocity ranges you'd be after too. Below is IMR's formula for calculating max and starting load in any rifle or pistol cartridge, hopefully IMR can clear up if it'll work for your purposes.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

--------------------
www.morrisonarms.com

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Ardent]
      #220667 - 01/12/12 03:24 AM

Yes- check with IMR/Hodgdon about using TB in shotshells. I read something about this, a while back (can't remember where), and seem to recall that the loads were considerably lower than the method of loading rifle with that powder would suggest.

When I started loading balls and slugs, I used the slowest powders & lowest pressures generated with shot loads in Lyman's shotshell book. I then carefully crept up in loads, using a chronograph until I matched the speed of the heavy Black Powder loads, ie: 5 and 7 dram loads. I found 4756 to be a good powder for this and it also was quite accurate, even in the smoothbore.

In strong guns, Ed Huble has found H4227 to be quite good as well, and it increases the 'performance' of these guns considerably.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #221097 - 07/12/12 02:28 PM

Rolland, I have a wonderful Hollis 12 bore with "invisible" rifling, which was made for the Duke of Connaught. The older than me Gentleman I purchisd it from gave be a great load. It is :
26 grains 4756
Rem. R12L plastic wad
1/2 felt wad
1/8 cardboard wad
748 grain wasp waste lead bullet.
I use this load in brass or plastic shells
The gun is a delight to shoot, accurate with just enough recoil as it is light, but great for deer and hogs

Edited by Tallchief (08/12/12 02:33 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Tallchief]
      #221133 - 08/12/12 05:27 AM

Tallchief - sounds great. I used SR4756 in my own 12 bore loads and it delivered exactly what I needed to duplicate the original 7 dram load and with very low recoil compared to black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #221136 - 08/12/12 06:14 AM

Daryl,
With shotgun or rifled barrels?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: gatsby]
      #221148 - 08/12/12 08:54 AM

Mine was a shotgun, barrels shortened to 24".
The 7 dram black powder loads and the smokelessSR4756 loads in my gun gave me 1,550fps with a 480gr. RB. (undersized in a cup-wad) The wad columns of course, were quite different, but both used the cup wad for centering the ball in the bores.

I tried the same system in my rifled Mossberg 835 tube and they were quite accurate in my limited testing at 25 yards - single 1 1/2" hole for 5 shots offhand. but then, a good load in a smoothore will do that too. 25yards is too close for testing accuracy.

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gatsby
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: DarylS]
      #221150 - 08/12/12 09:19 AM

What do you suppose your pressure was with the SR powder?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: gatsby]
      #221162 - 08/12/12 12:53 PM

I don't know what my pressures were, gatsby, but seemed OK in my turn of the century gun - no excessive flattening or pushing back the firing pin as happened in my 10 bore with factory ammo.

Lyman lists 12 bore loads up to 42.0gr. and 43.0gr. of SR4756 in 2 3/4" Fed plastics with a list of wad parts and a 475gr. Lyman slug at 1,500fps. Those are running 10,300 to 10,500LUP.

With a Brenneke slug and extra wads, roll crimp, 36.0gr. 4756 at 1,532fps and 33.5gr. Brenneke and fold crimp at 1,457fps. Those run 10,500LUP and 9,800LUP respectively.

With .690" round ball, slighlty larger than mine, 40.0gr. 4756 with wads including a WAA12 with petals removed + 1/2" fiber, 1/8" card and .690' RB, roll crimp, was 1,538fps.
36.0gr. .690" RB, WAA12 patals removed same was and fold crimp ran 1,456fps. The pressures were both 10,200
LUP.

All these loads are well under 12,000LUP, noted as being about maximum for shotgun shells.

I suspect when I loaded my round balls to 1,550fps, I might have been pushing around max - I had no trouble, however I no longer have that data - dagnabbit, so for my new Mossberg 835 rifled gun, I'm starting over again, but not without places to start.

I started with known shot loads - ie: 1 1/4ounce data and went up from there after chronographing the black powder loads, then duplicated them in what seemed to be a good stable slow burning powder. I seem now that Hodgdon's Longshot powder might be a good powder to try.

This data was all taken from Lyman's old 3rd Edition Lyman Shotshell Handbook. I'm sure they must have a newer version out now, perhaps several newer books.

This one has Herco loads along with Hi-Skor 800X, Blue Dot, Unique, 571 and SR7625, with various different projectiles, wads and cases. All of the 3" and 10 bore data seems to be buckshot. Perhaps the newer books have 3" and 3 1/2" data due to the newer guns, like my Mossey 3 1/2".

Ed Huble has taken this into the next world with the use of H4227 and H117 powders along with Fed 239/439??? primers, achieving incredible velocities out of what seem to be normal SXS and pump shotguns. Of course, his loads "from hell" are for re-barreled, heavy barreled guns, rifled and smooth using 'modern' brass cases. For example, a 100gr. bullet at 3,400fps. That's over 25,000fpe.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rolland
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #221165 - 08/12/12 01:58 PM

Thanks for all the information I will be working on a load over the next few weeks.

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Tallchief
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Re: my 12 bore finished [Re: Rolland]
      #221183 - 09/12/12 02:30 AM

I also us 28.5 of 4756 and the same WAD column(but for a 20ga) and felt in my 600 2 1/2 and a 512 bullet. works real well, and fun accurate shooting. I'l have to break out the chrono to see what it is doing, but like Daryl I think around 1400-1500 fps.

Edited by Tallchief (09/12/12 02:41 AM)

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