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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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DaleS
.224 member


Reged: 17/11/09
Posts: 12
Loc: ny
410 double to 22 lr
      #201081 - 30/01/12 09:08 AM

I have a 410 double and would like to build a set of 22lr barrels. As I want to keep the 410 set I was planning to build the new set from scratch, not from a mono block but attaching the barrels together on a plate with the locking lug.
My worry is how well it will shoot as I plan to turn the barrels off center at breech end to align rim with firing pins, and muzzle end centered. Will this cause some strange stress paterns as the barrels heat up? I realize a 22 will not get very warm but am still not sure. Has any one done this? Is this a problem?

Thanks for any imput.
Dale

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: DaleS]
      #201090 - 30/01/12 11:25 AM

Go with your plan Dale.

The locking lug arrangement you describe is called a "shoe lump" and it's just fine. Many top-shelf rifles exist which have shoe lumps.

Your barrel machining idea has also been used, and will work great.

A double rifle (any double rifle) is not the best long-shotString rifle due to the barrels/ribs/etc joined together the way that they are -- but really, you'll be fine.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: tinker]
      #201092 - 30/01/12 11:35 AM

I've been wanting to do that build myself but don't have the tools or donor gun-what .410 are you planning to use? My idea keeps going back to the EAA doubles that were common a few years ago. .22LR or .22 magnum doesn't need any more strength than .410, and the EAA gun has the contours I want. Might get a couple blanks or 12 gauge inserts and have a friend turn them down to fit the .410 bores on his lathe. Another idea I have had for years is this-anyone know if it would be legal to permanently insert the .22 barrels into the donor barrels(blind pin and silver solder), and cut them to 16"? If permanent, by common sense thinking the gun's not really a shotgun anymore, but we all know the BATF doesn't always follow common sense reasoning.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: Shackleton]
      #201094 - 30/01/12 11:43 AM

My first thought was about the shape of the firing pin striking the ctg. rim.
Would this damage the pic for use later on as a centerfire SG?

Possibly a non issue though.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26549
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: AkMike]
      #201096 - 30/01/12 11:48 AM

I thought of doing that some years ago, but decided that most double .410's were tightly choked, ie: a full 40 points of choke. Rifling the chokes would make for an interesting double rifle with 3" black powder loads?

Cutting the tubes back to 22" or 24" and having them rifled full length was another idea, perhaps, worth investigating.

Just a thought for something out of the ordinary.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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HistoricBore
.300 member


Reged: 28/09/11
Posts: 224
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: DarylS]
      #201176 - 31/01/12 01:27 AM

Hi Guys

Just for the record, I own a converted .410 double shotgun made by Midland Gub Co. in Birmingham between the wars. It is a top lever hammer gun. It was converted by a brilliant English gunsmith for his own use about seven years ago. Just before he died he allowed me to buy it from him. Is has the original barrels, now 25.5 inches long, and which have been linered using old SMLE .303 barrels (anti-clockwise rifling) and chambered for .32-20. Hence no problem with firing pins.

It is the hungriest gun I own - every time I go to the range someone will say 'Please can I fire a few shots?' It regulates nicely with normal subsonic loads. If I increase velocities to about 1900 fps the right barrel is OK, but the left shoots WAY to the left. Great fun.

Good luck with your project!

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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: Shackleton]
      #201190 - 31/01/12 04:08 AM

Quote:

By Shackleton:

Another idea I have had for years is this-anyone know if it would be legal to permanently insert the .22 barrels into the donor barrels(blind pin and silver solder), and cut them to 16"? If permanent, by common sense thinking the gun's not really a shotgun anymore, but we all know the BATF doesn't always follow common sense reasoning.

If the gun was entered on the registry as a shotgun then ATF will probably always treat it as a shotgun. Therefore, I would not cut the barrels any shorter than a tad over 18".

--------------------
~

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TilleyMan
.333 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: Grenadier]
      #201208 - 31/01/12 06:25 AM

I've seen two .22RF doubles built by local gunsmith Bob deVries... one on an old Liege hammer action .410, the other on a more modern hammerless .410. They were built using old Lithgow M12 rimfire barrels (which were made out from the same SMLE SAF 7 centrefire steel blanks at Lithgow Small Arms Factory)

I'd say the biggest problem when building a .22RF DR is lack of tuning during regulation... .22RF ammo is of course unable to be reloaded and tuned to the harmonics of the barrel and action during regulation. A different brand of rimfire ammo often behaves markedly different in a rimfire, so I'd say it could only be regulated for one brand and one weight of .22RF ammo.

If you want a small calibre DR, I'd go for a .22 Hornet... centrefire so no problems with original striker orientation, reloadable for tuning loads during regulation and low pressure enough to fire safely in the .410 shotgun action.

Would make a nice usable light game combo with the .410 shot barrel... not just a curiousity.

And of course solid 50gr bullets are available to have in reserve for the LH barrel just in case you are ever faced with a charging rabbit

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26549
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: TilleyMan]
      #201225 - 31/01/12 09:36 AM

Fat pins and a Hornet's 45,000CUP just don't go together in my experience so far. If the Hornets are loaded down - perhaps as I did in an unlartered Martini conversion. With factory ammo, the primers cratered badly and leaked more times than not. Bushing and small pins solved that.

Most modern .410 shotgun pins should be able to be bushed, I'd think. I still like the idea of a 2 1/2" or 3" .416 or .420" cal., grove to groove Black Powder Double rifle for cast bullets on a plastic .410 case. Should make a great deer, goat and pig rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: DarylS]
      #201256 - 31/01/12 05:07 PM

I'd pondered the same issues when wanting to make a set of 22RF barrels to fit my son's 410. Considering the headaches involving eccentrically turning blanks, etc, I finally decided to make them in 25-20 instead. That certainly facilitated also using it as a 410 while keeping pressures low.

I enlisted Ellis Brown of CO to do the excellent work and should have the gun in the white in a few weeks. With his permission, I'll post his in progress photos when it is all done.



--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

Edited by CptCurl (01/02/12 11:39 PM)

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #201257 - 31/01/12 05:12 PM

That looks very nice Bob!

Let's wring it out against the Daisy when it gets in!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: AkMike]
      #201605 - 04/02/12 04:19 AM

I have built a couple of .22RF doubles. My personal gun was built on a very petite framed Kettner 9x57R double rifle. Obviously, I did not want to modify anything on the gun that might cause trouble with the 9x57R, including reshaping the firing pins.

I built a whole new monoblock, though were I to build another, I would use a shoelump, like on the 25-20 above. I built the monoblock so that the bores were moved in and the centerfire strikers hit the outside of the .22RF rims. This could be done either by moving the barrels out or in, but by moving them in, it made the monoblock more petite. In a .22RF, smaller is better. I just use CCI Mini-mags all time and it shoots great (about 1.5" at 50 yards - at least minute of squirrel). Because the pins are rounded for the centerfire ammo, I occasionally (maybe one in 100 rounds) have a miss fire with the .22RF. I can live with this. While it could happen at the worst possible time - like with a rouge, charging rabbit - I doubt it will be seriously life threatening.

This is a really fun gun to shoot, and frequently gets shoot as much at the Elephant Hunt, as the big bore doubles.

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN

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DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: DBLGN]
      #201608 - 04/02/12 04:29 AM

"I plan to turn the barrels off center at breech end to align rim with firing pins"

Just re-read the initial start of this thread. I would not go to the trouble of turning the barrels eccentric to the bores. Yes, it can be done that way, but it a lot more work. Just make the shoelump so that the barrels are offset to the inside. That way you can turn the barrels concentric like you normally would and braze them to the shoelump. That is basically what I did, only I made a monoblock rather than a shoelump. It will take some figuring to determine the barrel diameters versus the position on the shoelump, but that has to be done anyway.

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN

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Gadge
.300 member


Reged: 02/05/04
Posts: 130
Loc: Gippsland, Victoria, Australia
Re: 410 double to 22 lr [Re: TilleyMan]
      #202921 - 19/02/12 01:36 PM

Quote:

I've seen two .22RF doubles built by local gunsmith Bob deVries... one on an old Liege hammer action .410, the other on a more modern hammerless .410. They were built using old Lithgow M12 rimfire barrels (which were made out from the same SMLE SAF 7 centrefire steel blanks at Lithgow Small Arms Factory)



He's still got the hammer one listed for sale: http://www.ozgunsales.com/listing/4339/Double_Barrel_22_Rimfire_Rifle.html

--------------------
Cheers,
Doug

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