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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #262175 - 13/03/15 12:04 PM

Bill,

How are you doing ??

Any more progress that you can share with us ??

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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #262214 - 14/03/15 08:27 AM


It must be lovely to have that sort of talent... my Son is into this field but not into gunsmithing unfortunately.

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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #271179 - 01/10/15 11:03 AM

Bill,

Hope you are well and just too busy shooting your new doubles to have posted.

Please post some photos so we can see what you've been up to.

I'm keen to see you succeed in this grand endeavour.

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #275514 - 23/12/15 03:20 PM

Guys,
I am embarrassed to say I have not made more progress. I seem to go in "fits and starts" but I have not given up. I really hope to make progress just after the 1st of the year. This has been a very complicated project but I have the hardest hard work done as documented above. I now have the g-code validated for the receiver and have made most of the other parts. I will post as soon as I have something other than hollow promises.
Bill

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #275546 - 24/12/15 05:19 AM

Take your time Bill and work on it only when you want to work on it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Setterguy
.275 member


Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #275558 - 24/12/15 11:21 AM

Thank you and have a wonderful holiday season. Perhaps the new year will bring this to a close.
Bill

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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #276430 - 11/01/16 11:51 AM

Bill,

The pictures you posted show that you're offering more than "hollow promises".

You've made great progress on a complicated project.

Great to hear that this project is still "in play".

Wishing you well in your endeavours.

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Setterguy
.275 member


Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #279939 - 28/03/16 06:03 AM

Hello again. I have managed to re-start my project and making some headway. I believe I said in some earlier part of this that I needed to modify the receiver and add more mass in the standing breech area. The original Mod. 21 has 150 thousands of thickness there and that is not enough in my view to either allow for a bushing for the firing pin and add strength for any plastic deformation. I think that is the main problem that the gunsmith in Colorado had with his set of 7x57R barrels unhinging. Of course he used an original receiver. As we started milling we left 550 thousands for the standing breech only to find that even a modified hammer would hit the butt stock. So we took out an additional 100 thousands. This still leaves 450 thousands. Then we needed to redesign the hammer since the original hammer was a single integral hammer and firing pin. I have posted below the redesigned hammer. I believe it will work. Anyway some pictures:

This is the starting for the back of the receiver.



The raw receiver next to an original Winchester 21.



Setup in the CNC mill making the first hole for the locking lug.



Milling out the back.



I will post more as I make progress.
Bill

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:20 PM)

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #279982 - 29/03/16 02:09 AM

Dear Setterguy,
Keep going, I think you have figured out a very important part of the equation and are very close to success. I hope you have good luck with it from here out. Please do keep us informed of your progress. Bob

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Setterguy
.275 member


Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #279996 - 29/03/16 06:44 AM

Birdhunter,

Thank you for the encouragement. Yes, getting the code correct for this end was a challenge but I think it is correct now. For those of you anticipating do such a project please keep in mind there is a lot of work between scanning a piece and correcting the errors to get into solid works and then the G-Code for the CNC. CNCs are great but only as good as the code that goes in. Below is the completed receiver from the end work.

The one on the right is an original Winchester 21 receiver, the middle what was just milled, and the left one ready to mill.



In this picture you can see the difference in the amount of metal left in the middle one compared to the one on the original on the right. Should add a lot of strength.



I promised to show a picture of the re-designed hammer but forgot to attach. Here it is:



Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:22 PM)

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280014 - 29/03/16 11:13 AM

Here are a couple of videos of the process if someone would like to see a CNC in action.
Bill

http://vid1094.photobucket.com/albums/i442/bdshipp/100_1024_zps4pbqzt1h.mp4

http://vid1094.photobucket.com/albums/i442/bdshipp/100_1025_zpsccxnfqqd.mp4

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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280015 - 29/03/16 11:50 AM

Bill,

Welcome back I've been looking forward to your return.

Great to see your progress.

Yep CNC is not just "plug and play". You just can't scan something, put some material in the vise, a tool in the spindle and push the button ............... to come back moments later to find a completed part.

I'm in the process of learning this myself.

It still is "white man's magic" though.

Among other things a cnc mill has to be told where the material is, how long cutters are, speeds, feeds etc so that it can apply the "technogeewizery" to effect.

Computers are pretty dumb. They must be told what to do..........and if you tell them to do the wrong thing. That's what you'll get.

Verification of dimensions, machining paths, offsets and protocols all have to be right otherwise you'll end up with scrap.

Great work Bill. I applaud your progress while deploring my lack of cnc progress.

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
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Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #280218 - 03/04/16 10:23 AM

Thought maybe someone would like to see one of the advantages of a CNC EDM wire cutter. The picture below shows the original Winchester 21 hammer, the redesigned one cut out of aluminum and in the middle a "bunch" of hammers directly out of the EDM wire. Now all that is needed is to "slice" off as many as you like. It was critical to do the aluminum one first to ensure that it cleared all the other parts and would be on face with the backside of the standing breech.-----Bill



Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:23 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280227 - 03/04/16 05:10 PM

A wire cutter is a fantastic thing.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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4al2
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Reged: 27/09/11
Posts: 36
Loc: delaware usa
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #280239 - 03/04/16 09:26 PM

Do you do any shotgun conversion?

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: 4al2]
      #280270 - 04/04/16 01:02 AM

4al2,
Not conversions per se but what I am doing in parallel to the DR is making a titanium 21 shotgun. the only difference between the two is that the shotgun will have the standing breech the normal thickness and the original integral hammer and firing pin. Of course the material is different as well with the DR being 4340 steel and the shotgun grade V titanium. I am working out all the code on the DR before I put the more expensive titanium through it. I started this whole thing thinking I would make one with interchangeable barrels for both shotgun and DR. Well into the project I decided that the standing breech was not thick enough and I believed I really needed a bushed firing pin. A ruptured cap would do really bad things inside the receiver. I will try shotgun barrels on the DR to see how they work. They may be fine but I just don't know yet. The only part I haven't made thus far is the monobloc. You can see from the early part of this thread I used a donor set of barrels for the monobloc. I do have the initial code for a monobloc but haven't had the time to test in the EDM. I will though.

I made the most common mistake for first time builders and that is the contour and therefore the weight of the barrels. The good news is that as 45-70 they will be a pleasure to shoot I think but a nightmare to carry. The balance is likely to be pretty bad as well. However, you learn as you go and that is a big part of the whole thing. I have already bought reamers from Ron Vella to make a 6.5x57R set of barrels. So, in the future a new set in this beautiful little caliber is at least in my mind. I have the barrels, reamers and monobloc code. All I need is the rest of the stuff i.e. time.

In the very beginning this project was only to be about making a titanium 21 20ga shotgun. I blame the dedicated and talented group on this forum for getting me into the DRs. I guess I am easily diverted though. Anyway, the DR then became the focus with the shotgun lagging behind. This is a pretty long answer to your short question. I should have just said no-----Bill

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280626 - 09/04/16 11:35 AM

I am getting down to last of the milling on the receiver. Here are the to-do items:

I have to cut angle cuts in the watertable to accept the barrel lugs. The cuts require tw setups, one from the top and one from the bottom. They are a little hard to see but if you look at the original I think you can see the angle cuts.



The floor plate requires some milling to shape as you can see below.



The front of the water table must have the holes milled out. See below:



Finally, the upper tang must be milled to fit into the receiver.



I think with the above completed the receiver will be ready to polish, harden, and try the internals. It is about time.----Bill

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:25 PM)

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280886 - 14/04/16 04:35 PM

Wow, you sure are doing a fine job with this build!
It's coming along very well indeed.
Please keep the photos and description coming.

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #280942 - 15/04/16 06:32 AM

You are the master of the wire cutter. Great work.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #283493 - 06/06/16 10:45 AM

Bill,

Anymore to show us ??

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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #287292 - 02/09/16 10:37 AM

Bill ?????

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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #290475 - 18/11/16 11:31 AM

Bill,

Hope all is well with you and your project.

Have you got any more to show us??

between your project, and that of Dewey's, we're getting two approaches to two great projects - one utilising traditional hand methods and your's utilising more modern technology.

Both great projects. Fascinating to watch the progress of each.

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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #294541 - 31/01/17 11:44 AM

Bill,

Have you got any more to update us on ???

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #299775 - 28/04/17 02:27 PM

Hello again, I have had to have some plumbing done in my heart but am back to full form now. I will post some more progress in a day or two. Thanks for bearing with me on this project.---------Bill

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #299872 - 01/05/17 07:44 AM

Please see some pictures of recent progress on my 45-70 project.

The water table cuts are now complete including drilling for the cocking levers. You will see one is completed and one is not.



You will note above that the bushing holes have not been cut in. They are now finished and tapped. See below.



The tang has been cut, shaped, and installed. The hole for the top lever has been drilled.



You can see below that it has been welded in place.



Top lever fits very nicely but will need a little filing but not much.







Need to now turn my attention to the floor plate. I will report back soon.----Bill



Edited by CptCurl (03/05/17 09:11 PM)

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