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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#229412 - 29/04/13 10:42 AM

Bill,

Sorry to hear about your ongoing computer "infarction".

However you must be getting too close to success to suit the "gods of projects" as they're laying on the obstructions thick and fast.

Computers are great while they're giving you the result that you're after...........but when they're not they are very frustrating.

Keep plugging away Bill......you'll beat it !!!!!

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
#231136 - 13/06/13 01:42 PM

Bill ..........you're killing me !!!

I'm obviously praying to the wrong god for the success of this project !!!!!

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Ckhobart
.275 member

Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
#231775 - 28/06/13 07:24 AM

Leaving us in suspense!

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Ckhobart
.275 member

Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
#233106 - 29/07/13 04:09 PM

So, exciting?
Come on

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
#235347 - 09/09/13 03:42 PM

Bill,

Any progress ???

Post some pictures..........throw in some words !!!! anything !!!

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
#240609 - 14/01/14 03:48 PM

If you have been following this project you know I ran into computer problems on the EDM wire cutter at a critical time. To make a long story short I lost 6 months of time with no machine. It is now working and I am again making progress. I will post some pictures in a couple of weeks. I am reprogramming the receiver code to allow about 3/8 of an inch of steel behind the firing pin hole to increase the strength of this inherently weak area. Not a problem for shotguns but it is for DRs. Don't give up on me. I will finish this even if I am now counting it in years!!!! I just didn't want to bore you when I didn't have good progress.

Side note: I see my friend Nikitas has posted some of his great work on his double. For those who don't know him, he is one of the most informed gun writers you will ever read and now a designer as well.--------Bill

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#240666 - 15/01/14 11:46 AM

Great to see you back Bill.

Looking forward to seeing the photos.

I stopped commenting on how long other people's projects were taking when I did a stocktake of my own.

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Ckhobart
.275 member

Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
#241558 - 01/02/14 01:03 PM

Glad you're back in action chief. Keep us up to speed!

Ahh, I'd love to have my own CnC rig. Someday maybe.

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
#242554 - 17/02/14 02:19 PM

If you look back at the progress on the receiver you will see where I had to stop until the EDM was back in service. Since it is now operational I am making some progress as you can see below.

You can see the watertable has been wired out to accept the barrel lugs.

Here the trigger plate has also been wired to fit the receiver.

I was pretty happy with the precision of the fit of the trigger plate in the receiver. There was no filing done to facilitate the fit.

The top tang is made separate from the receiver to help in machining. This is as it comes out of the wire cutter.

This shows the fit in the receiver. I am pretty happy with that as well.

This is just a side shot of the same configuration.

I'll send more pictures as I make progress. Thank you for following my ups and downs.
Bill

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:52 PM)

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#242629 - 18/02/14 12:24 PM

Great to see you back in action Bill.

While your top tang setup will give you great alignment to tig (?) weld it in place will it cause you grief to recut the bore etc of the toplever ??? or are you just going to set it back on the jig/mill and run that part of the program again ???

I'm interested in seeing pictures of the top tang welded on and the cleanup.

Fantastic progress. Keep "plugging" away.

It's a pleasure to see your project unfold.

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
#242630 - 18/02/14 01:03 PM

The original scan was done without a tang but did have the hole bored in the receiver. So I do have a reference point for the top lever hole alignment relative to the receiver. The plans are to tig weld the upper tang in place and when I have the receiver hardened it should essentially make a homogeneous metal joint since both the tang and receiver are from the same alloy. Good question and I worried about it some.-----------Bill

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#242779 - 20/02/14 02:34 PM

A little more progress. I am trying to bring all the components along to ensure that the programs are completely debugged. This is a picture of the trigger guard. I have made both pistol grip and English. This is the English one. This is just as it comes out of the EDM wire cutter.

I am also working on the forearm shoe. This is a first cut showing an original shoe (model) and how it looks coming out of the EDM. We will now do a second cut that will do the radius and remove excess metal.------------Bill

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:53 PM)

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#242787 - 20/02/14 04:43 PM

Bill,

You're a "bloody legend", as we say here, by exhibiting so much progress in this project.

But I'll complicate things further for you.............now that you're creating miracles why not go one step further and include ejectors?.

Southgate ejectors are the measure but you might want to stick to whatever was "Winchester appropriate" for the time.

Either way you've made great progress and are seeing the benefits of sticking with this project through the hard times and I'm greatfull that you've chosen to include us in it.

And that's not "pocket p*ssing" .............. which is another saying we have here.

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Shotgunlover
.224 member

Reged: 24/08/13
Posts: 45
Loc: Greece

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
#242826 - 21/02/14 08:05 AM

Wonderful to see so much progress. Well done Bill.

I too am impatient to see the top tang welding. Right now we are having a debate with the machinist on modifying the design to a split arrangement and welding the trigger plate after machining for economy and convenience. Glad you will provide some pioneering knowledge and experience on that step.

And that trigger guard looks good too. Designing a trigger guard is much more difficult than the shape suggests.

The two small holes inside the action are for the sear spring screws?

Looking forward to the next phase with baited breath.

Edited by Shotgunlover (21/02/14 08:07 AM)

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Dumprat
.300 member

Reged: 20/02/14
Posts: 205
Loc: Vancouver island bc.

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Shotgunlover]
#242911 - 23/02/14 03:52 AM

Nice work! Are you using 4340 or mild for guards and accessories?

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Dumprat]
#242930 - 23/02/14 10:59 AM

I'll try and answer the questions above. First Twobobbwana, I will have ejectors. I already have them in the barrels earlier in the posts. I just need to bore out the receiver to match.

Shotgunlover, yes indeed the two holes are for the screws that hold the sear springs in place

Dumprat, actually the trigger guard above is grade V titanium 6al-4v but I am using the same 4340 for the guards and accessories. I do plan on using 4140 for additional monoblocs though to match the barrels or 416 stainless if I use stainless barrels. You really don't need 4340 for the guards and such but I thought it might match better when blued. I might switch though to 4140. It is easier to mill. The reason for the titanium is to make light weight shotguns. I will not use on DRs though.--------Bill

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Dumprat
.300 member

Reged: 20/02/14
Posts: 205
Loc: Vancouver island bc.

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#242933 - 23/02/14 11:52 AM

The TI should hold up great. Wonder how it will polish up? Again, nice work.

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Dumprat]
#242973 - 24/02/14 11:47 AM

Bill,

as you are attaching the top tang in the manner that you are would you consider doing an extended top tang over the nose of the comb in order to strengthen the stock through the wrist ??

If I recall you had previously some concerns about the strength of the stock through the wrist.

With ejectors, extended top tang and a trigger guard extended to a trap pistol grip cap you'd certainly have a "burger with the works".

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Ckhobart
.275 member

Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
#243707 - 13/03/14 05:21 AM

Gorgeous.

Lord I wish I had a CNC mill

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
#246849 - 02/05/14 02:54 PM

I have made a little more progress on the receiver. The next thing I needed to do was to mill off the excess metal on the radius of the receiver sides and the trigger plate. The trigger plate is just as it came out of the EDM wire cutter. I am going to try and attach a video below. You should be able to click on the arrow and play. I will try one and if it works then do another post with others to show how the CNC does this job. If it doesn't work then I do have still pictures as backup. Here goes-------Bill

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:54 PM)

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#246851 - 02/05/14 03:21 PM

Okay, that seemed to work but there was not an arrow. It is a video however, so all you need to do is click on the video and it will start. I am going to add about three more below to show progress as the mill progresses down the receiver. When it completed its cycle there will be only about 2 thousands of metal left to file and sand off to be finished. The flat surface of the trigger plate is itself only about 2 thousands too thick. You will see that the mill barely takes the color off it. Most of the metal comes off of the radius where the sides of the receiver meet the trigger plate. I will post more later. It is getting bed time here.-------------Bill

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:55 PM)

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Shotgunlover
.224 member

Reged: 24/08/13
Posts: 45
Loc: Greece

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#246883 - 03/05/14 03:35 AM

Nice progress Bill.

EDM wire cutting is such a wonderful invention! This project as well as Ron Vella's 6.5 monobloc show what the process can do. I used it for the trigger guard and internal lock parts. The first batch had been laser cut, leaving way too many burn marks on the perimeter of the cut. the EDM leaves a smoother and easier to finish surface, as seen in these photos. The forend iron work is really impressive. Doing all those contoured cuts in one go is amazing!

Can't wait to see more!

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Shotgunlover]
#246896 - 03/05/14 07:43 AM

Thank you and, yes, the EDM is wonderful. Not having it available at the critical time cost me nine months delay. Most of the surfaces come out to spec without further finishing.

Attached below are more of the CNC cutting. We did two passes all below are the 2nd pass except the first one. If you are bored by now on these videos just skip since it does get pretty repetitive. Again, all you need to do is click on the picture for it to start.
Bill

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:58 PM)

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Setterguy
.275 member

Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#246965 - 05/05/14 01:10 AM

Two quick videos on the jig and removal of the receiver from the jig just in case someone would like to see how it is held in the mill for indexing.-----------Bill

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twobobbwana
.333 member

Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
#255480 - 20/10/14 12:06 PM

Bill,

It's been 4 1/2 months now.

Have you got anything more for us ??

Like your jig. Puts square corners back on the action and makes it easier to hang onto in the vice.

You got the video clips sorted out. Good work.

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