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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA
      #183342 - 10/06/11 05:27 AM

Hello all,
I am new to this forum so this has likely been covered before and if so just direct me to the proper place. I am building a DR in 45-70 on a 20 ga Winchester 21 receiver and monobloc. I have the barrels in the monobloc,front lug attached and front spacer in place. I need to cut the ejectors, add the ribs, chamber, and regulate the barrels. Herein lies my question and request for input. I need to specify a load, i.e. powder and bullet to regulate my new barrels. I will be using it potentially for deer, moose, elk, and boar. I plan on carefully reloading a hundred or so for the regulating process (hope it doesn't take that many). I would appreciate any advice and experience you have. My project is a winter project so I have time consider all your inputs. Thank you.---Bill

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #183355 - 10/06/11 09:24 AM

Welcome Setterguy !!! Sounds like you have picked a great action to build a double on. Please post "pics" we live on them !!!!
I would regulate with the new" Hornady Leveroution" ammo . I have been shooting the 30/30 ammo in my Chapuis Round action 30/30. Shoots it very well. And , I have been pleased with groups.
Robert

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Tatume
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #183356 - 10/06/11 10:21 AM

Hi Bill,

We all have our preferences. If it was me, I would use a 350 or 400 gr cast bullet at about 1700 to 1800 fps. Pick your favorite mould and powder, then build the gun around it. Good luck, and do post some pictures.

Take care, Tom

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Tatume]
      #183361 - 10/06/11 11:07 AM

Thank you for your input. I will post pictures as I proceed but as I said it is a winter project and the barrels are in Tucson where we live in the winter. We are now in Montana so it will be January before any pictures. I am actually building the receiver as well. I can post the prototype of it if I knew how. It is at the gunsmith now being shaped and internals mated to it. I suppose that progess can be tracked until I get back to the barrels this winter. It is a huge project but fun so far. I will try and figure out how to insert the pictures.----Bill

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #183391 - 10/06/11 10:53 PM

Bill,

Welcome to this forum and I think you will find the right information here to suit your project. I like to regulate my guns to a known handload, that way if I need to tweek it a little I know exactly what the starting load was. If you use a factory load to regulate with, you may not be able to duplicate that factory load exactly if you don't know how they loaded it in the first place. Even if you acheive the same speed with the same bullet they used, the recoil impulse of the different powder may throw the whole thing off. Ammo makers also have access to powders that we cannot even buy and they may be able to safely load a bullet to a speed that we can't get to using off the shelf powders.
One thing you've done right in my opinion, is your choice of caliber. The 45/70 is a most versital cartridge. It can easily be loaded up or down depending on what you need. I regged one of my 45-70's with a 300 grain Remingtom hollowpoint in front of 37 grains of IMR 4198 for about 1700 fps. It will shoot the 350 grain flatpoint or a 405 hard cast bullet equaly well to the same point of impact by changing the powder around a little. I have found that there is more difference in POI between jacketed versus cast than between jacketed or cast bullets of differing weights. As always, these loads were found to work in my gun only, and might not be safe in yours. Start under and work upwards till you get what you want.
You mentioned doing hunts for different types of animals and I think you will find that maybe a hardcast 405 grain bullet will handle any and all comers. That might also be a good choice to reg. the new rifle. Maybe a 350 or 400 grain jacketed will work best for you. Whatever you choose, just be sure it is consistantly accurate in your rifle and that you can shoot it well. Bob H.

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DarylS
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #183396 - 11/06/11 12:39 AM

For strictly NA game, I'd go with either a 350gr. Hornady RN at about 1,800fps or a cast 400 to 450gr. at about the same speed. Benchmark or H4895 should deliver with about the lowest pressures.

The inclusion of Elk and moose, for me, eliminates any factory ammo - the 325gr. pointed Hornady being a bit soft for those - apparently - besides, I don't shoot factory ammo except for rimfire.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Setterguy
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: DarylS]
      #183431 - 11/06/11 12:57 PM

Thank you all. I reload for all my rifles so I would expect to precisely prepare a set of loads for the regulation process. I know that the range of game I listed is too great for this rifle and any particular load. If I knew exactly what I was going to hunt with this gun it would be a lot easier for you and me but I don't. I have several pre-64 Mod. 70s in my gun safe that I have used for years. I have a ranch in north central Montana so have mule and whitetail deer in my back yard. My preferred rifle for them is a pre-64 Win. Mod. 70 in .264 Win. Mag. I am CNC milling this Winchester 21 receiver for the 45-70 from a solid block of chrome moly 4340 steel and will appropriately harden it. It will be much stronger that the original 21s who were alrealy plenty strong. I am also making a titanium 21 20ga shotgun at the same time as a companion to the DR. It is a project of love since I have a lot of firepower already. I just don't know exactly what I will use it for yet; I wish I did! It seems that we may be converging on a 350 grain Hornady as an all around bullet. I had hoped to push it beyond 2000 ft/sec but I don't know if that is safe or practical. I really need your considered opinion on this.

Thank you all for the input and further help.---Bill

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DarylS
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #183479 - 12/06/11 01:24 AM

Bill - I've taken both moose and elk with the RN version of that bullet driven at 2,300fps and for me, it's tossup between it and the original style Barnes 400gr. Spitzer.\

Rib shots are no brainers with just about any bullet, but the last moose shot, was at about 95 yards (while we were eating lunch right from camp). The Hornady bullet took him above the left eye, coursed lengthwise through his brain into the spine, smashing 3 vertebrae then exited out the back of his neck. I as impressed.

It will handle lesser game quite easily. 200 yards is easy range. Past that, one must practise a bit more.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (12/06/11 08:58 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: DarylS]
      #183486 - 12/06/11 11:29 AM

Photo's for Setterguy.









Edited by CptCurl (12/06/11 09:01 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: DarylS]
      #183487 - 12/06/11 12:02 PM

Thank you Daryl for helping out a photo challenged memeber!!! The above pictures are the current state of the receiver and forearm part of the DR project. You can see that the receiver is in need of honing, shaping, and polishing. It has been at the gunsmith's for a week now. I have sent him all the internal parts. I do not know his schedule to finish the receiver and mate the parts. I hope no more than a month but who knows. When my 45-70 project is finished the only parts that will not be hand made and milled from stock 4340 chrome moly steel will be the receiver internals and the monobloc from an old set of Winchester 21 20 barrels. The barrels, of course were not milled from stock. So, although it will be a 21 it will not be a Winchester 21. It will be a totally hand made 21 DR. I will post pictures of the receiver when finished and ready for the next step.--Bill

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Sarg
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #183490 - 12/06/11 01:12 PM

Man , You are some thing else , most guys think making a DR from a shotgun is a big job , but to make the action too !!!

Say , why did you not make a known DR action , maybe a Webley in a full on Nitro Express Cal ?

Still a great job so far , looks awesome !

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Setterguy
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Sarg]
      #183491 - 12/06/11 01:29 PM

I have just always been a Winchester 21 fan and up until now restricted to shotguns. So, I did not do a search and decide process. I will also be making a 21 20 ga shotgun as a companion to the DR. I am quite sure there are better and more desirable models and makers of DRs but everyone has their own preference and 21s are mine. There is still a lot of room for failure on this project so if you hear whinning and crying it is likely me having arrived at a non-recoverable spot. I can't start over at this point. My barrels are at about the same point of production but I don't have pictures of them.----Bill

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DarylS
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #183506 - 13/06/11 12:01 AM

You are most welcome, Bill.

Have you considered making it a .45 2.4" or even a .45 2.6" chambering?

I would personally go for the 2.6". Descent with black powder and better, with higher speeds, lower pressure with lighter jacketed - whatever is decided upon.

Bill - if you get an opportunity, check out the new Lyman loading manual in a store, for data comparison. Pretty sure it was the new Lyman book. .45's in 2.1", 2.4", 2.6", 2 7/8" and 3 1/4". Now, I was also looking at the new Hornady book- but pretty sure it was the Lyman - they've had extra data on the longer cases before. One that intrigued me was a .45 3 1/4" load using H4895, I think it was and a 300gr. jacketed bullet at 2,200fps at low pressure. I don't think that was in the new book, but might have been. Acurate Arms manual also has data on the longer .45 and .50 cal. cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: DarylS]
      #183508 - 13/06/11 12:45 AM

Daryl,

I am completely open at this point. I don't need to decide on the chambering unitl next January. That is the principal reason I opened this thread to get everyone's view. I know shotguns and traditional bolt guns pretty well but DRs are new to me. It will be used for NA game. I welcome all views and opinions on this project. I just picked 45-70 because it was what I knew not because I had critically examined it against other options. So please everyone give me your opinions on this. I will reload anyway so it really doesn't matter much if it is off the self or not. I am neither a metallurgist nor a mechanical engineer but I think the modern 4340 chrome moly steel receiver I am making can withstand considerable pressure and not fail. So, lets change the title from "Optimun load for a 45-70" to "Optimum chambering and load for a 45 caliber". Views please.

I will add one more wrinkle for those of you who are metallurists or mechanical engineers or just have a view. The receiver you see above will be my prototype. I will make the actual receiver I use from this prototype. I have both chrome moly 4340 steel and 4AL-6V titanium as raw stock to work from. I intend to make the 20 ga shotgun from the titanium. I could make the DR from it as well. I think the titanium has better mechanical properties for the receiver (springs back from severe blows and high tensile strengh)but is 55% lighter. I presumed I needed the weight of the steel to get a 8.5 to 9 lb. DR. Again your views are appreciated.---Bill

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DarylS
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #183511 - 13/06/11 01:04 AM

I personally prefer weight in the barrels balancing ahead of the knuckle for more accurate offhand shooting, while others want the rifle to balance at the knuckle or just behind, on the water table.

I'll see what I can find on the various .45 ctgs. as per pressures at velocities. I know that older Lyman 300gr. from the 3 1/4" was in the 2,200fps to 2,400fps range, at what was hinted at, as being 35,000psi. They declared it OK for the modern made Sharps, however I'd not shoot that load in a big firing pin rifle without VERY carefully working towards it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Setterguy
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: DarylS]
      #183512 - 13/06/11 01:33 AM


I will provide bushings for the strikers after I mill out the receiver so I will not have the large holes and the safety issues with them.---Bill

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Smoke73
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #183637 - 14/06/11 01:57 PM

Glad to hear your bushing the strikers. I was all excited to throw in my two cents and here you had the awnser after all. I'm impressed with the whole process. Thanx for posting and please don't quit until it finished. I'm for the .45-90 (2.4").

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Dono
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #184237 - 20/06/11 02:38 PM

Hi Bill I have a Baikal 45/70 wich I have changed quite a bit, It no longer has the regulating screw under the barrels and I have had Alex put a set of ribs in, We have regulated it with 350g hornady RN and a stout charge of 49g of AR2207.This load shoots well in my rifle and is doing about 1950fps.

--------------------
I love the smell of burnt powder in the morning

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DarylS
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Dono]
      #184255 - 21/06/11 12:45 AM

Dono - that's a good sounding load. At that speed, that bullet should give good penetration and expansion. I'd think it would be a smasher for 'Donks' or any ungulates here. 2207? - is that Varget?

In a 2.4" or 2.6" case, I'd think a speed in the 2,000fps to 2,050fps range (bit more with a longer case) would be possible, same pressure range.

The slower powders will deliver at lower pressure. Just make certain there is enough pressure to get a good burn and not coat the bore with unburnt powder - some do. In these straight sided cases, the ball powders don't work well until you get the pressures well up past most DR ranges.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Judson
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: DarylS]
      #189088 - 02/09/11 08:52 AM


I am not a big Winchester fan, however check out Ned Schwing's book Winchester's Finest The Model 21. Page 22 talkes of the testing done on the Mod. 21, Winchester fired 2,000 proof loads sucsesfully in a 21 with out any failure. Do not get me wrong PROOF your Double in a safe way you need all your body parts and life to enjoy it!!!!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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hoosier
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Judson]
      #189329 - 07/09/11 01:55 AM

I can share with you on my experience with the 45-70 in a double rifle. Mine shoots pretty good with
350 t0 425 gr.cast bullets. My regulation velocity with the 425 gr. is about 1770 fps at 12 ft. from the muzzle.This bulet is around 15 bhn + or - . This load penetrated a large american bison directly through the sholders and kept on going. The wound channel was large with around a 2" exit wound.It is a lot of muscle to get through and keep on going.It is not a long range round, but if you do your part it is well up to the task in North America.
I am sure that armchair ballisticians would have me hung for the last statement but results speak much more athoritively than words-seeing is believing, my guide was pretty suitably impressed as well. As for longer length 45 cartridges the will work well also. You can get the same results with noticably less pressure or run it up and get increased performance if you and the rifle can stand it. Going up from 45-70 perforance I run out of durability quickly. Let recoil decide what you can stand-not ego. Best of luck on your project.

--------------------
BigMike

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Setterguy
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: hoosier]
      #193638 - 12/11/11 03:33 AM

All,
Just a quick note to say my project is still underway but suffered a several month delay when I had to change gunsmiths in September. My first one who was supposed to shape the frame and fit the internals decided it was too close to manufacturing and not gunsmithing. I now expect to have the receiver ready for the next step by January 1, 2012. I will post new pictures as soon as I have new material.
Setterguy

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DarylS
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: Setterguy]
      #193639 - 12/11/11 03:52 AM

Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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twobobbwana
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: DarylS]
      #199585 - 16/01/12 12:42 PM

Setterguy,

That's a great project you've got going there. Very inspirational. Please keep the photos coming.

It amazes me the amount of material cut out of that 21 action given it's reputation for strength. Winchester did make some double rifles on the action so it is "proven" in that regard.

As per .45/70 loads. It sounds like you're trying to "hotrod" a .45/70 to the point that you may be better off with a 450 3 1/4" NE (480gn at 2150 fps). It's a larger case and would therefore give you lower pressures. If you regulate it for a readily available factory load (Hornady's 480gn) you can then develop lighter projectile loads that may suit your game better.

Remember that you'll need to get your double rifle to balance and to get it up to a "shootable" weight. In a 450 3 1/4" NE I believe it to be about 10 pounds. Whatever the cartridge is the physics involved will determine the gun's weight. The British used to have a formula which was multiples of the bullet weight........but I haven't seen it recently or often.

I am enthralled by the process of CNC. Would you be prepared to share your solid model ???

Could you please show some photos of the action being machined ??

Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" along with Ellis Brown's book "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions" and Stephen Dodd Hughes books, along with Gun Craft (?) by Vic Venter should about be your "Bible" during this process.

Great work, keep up the progress and photos. I never get tired of seeing these more adventurous projects.

twobobbwana

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Setterguy
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Re: Optimum load for a 45-70 DR in NA [Re: twobobbwana]
      #199598 - 16/01/12 02:27 PM

twobobbwana
Please check the new thread titled Winchester 21 DR in 45-70. The cartridge is now decided but I still am considering the loading. I doubt I will share the model given the cost and effort though. There is still plenty of room to fail on this project.---Bill

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