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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Great info on penetrating oils
      #141736 - 08/09/09 10:49 AM

Gil Russell, from Arizona, a fellow double gun nut, and a good guy, posted the info below on another forum. I think it should be of interest to any tinkerer and took it upon myself to copy and paste it to this forum. I already have acetone in my shop and I'll be sure to grab a pint of Dexron tommorrow!

Machinist's Workshop Mag (tm)recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this. the magazine reports they tested penetrants for break out torque on rusted nuts.
They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional
machinist.
They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants
with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from
a "scientifically rusted" environment.
*Penetrating oil ..... Average load*
None ...................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... 238 pounds
PB Blaster ................ 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ............. 127 pounds
Kano Kroil ................ 106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix..............53 pounds
The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic
transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better
than any commercial product in this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use
it with equally good results.
Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for
about 20% of the price.
For further information:
http://forums.thecarlounge.net/zerothread?id=4547049

Edited by ronvella (08/09/09 10:52 AM)

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #141752 - 08/09/09 08:48 PM


Great information and thanks for sharing! On the farm, there was always a can on Liquid Wrench on the work bench! I'm surprised to see automatic transmission fluid on the list, but that makes me wonder how synthetic motor oil mixed with acetone would work?

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #141796 - 09/09/09 09:56 PM

Ron,
I heard about this some time ago and thought I would try it for myself. I went to the local auto parts store and bought a quart of ATF. I could not get the Acetone and the ATF to mix, they were like water and oil. I put equal amounts of each in a small tightly sealed jar and shook them up. The mix would look good for just a little while and then start to seperate into the two compounds again. I bought GM type ATF and that may have affected the outcome. I will go back and get some Ford type ATF and see if it works any better. I also dabbed some on both sides of a stuck floorplate screw on a double barrel shotgun and let it soak for some time. I renewed the mixture several times to the gun, all to no effect. Still ruined two screwdiver tips and almost stripped the head of the screw getting it out. I really would love to find something that works better than what you can buy in most stores. Bob H.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #141797 - 09/09/09 11:20 PM

For years I and probably half the Free World used a mixture of motor oil and mineral spirits as a general gunscrubber. My stuff maybe went something like 3 parts motor oil to 3 parts mineral spirits. I wasn't too technically attentive of the exact mixture of the stuff because it worked well in seemingly wide variations of mixtures. Sometimes I added other stuff that looked promising and sometimes was.

Then I read of CE Ed Harris' "Ed's Red" which is the above plus Dextron II or III and Kerosene {mazut or paraffin to you Anglo/French fellows} in a specific mixture. The acetone is dissolved by the kerosene and then that solution dissolves in the transmission fluid. Or vice versa, the techies to elaborate, I'm sure {hope}.

Anyhow, Ed's Red is a solution, the mere mix of trans fluid and acetone is not. I just mixed some Dextron III and acetone and indeed it separates. So does motor oil and acetone. But the big jug of Ed's Red stands as a solution on my gun bench.

A very thin mix of solvent {mineral spirits} plus motor oil {latter doesn't seem to matter too much exactly what} does indeed make a very good penetrating oil. Kerosene and acetone or Kerosene and mineral spirits will often break a rusty nut, too.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #142143 - 17/09/09 06:36 AM

Through years of working on automobiles of all kinds, I tried ATF fluid as penetrating oil, especially on rusted nuts/bolts, and found it to work reasonably well, but I never did any comparisons or tests on results. W. Ellis Brown, who wrote the two editions of Building Double Rifles on shotgun actions told us, at Tech. College class on same subject, that he found brake fluid to work better than any commercial penetrating oils, so I have tried that, and found it works well too. I would love to see comparison tests between ATF and brake fluid. Brake fluid will take auto paint off, if one isn't careful, so use caution in that regard.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #142144 - 17/09/09 07:11 AM

Hey, will one of you Gear Heads tell us {...me... } what exactly IS transmission fluid?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142155 - 17/09/09 11:02 AM

Interesting, Ron. I've felt for a while, that KROIL was the best. Guess I'll have to mix up some more Ed's Red.

Rod - automatic transmission fluid is synthesized from crude oil, and designed form the ground-up for a specific job - that of lubing a tranny and not burning up in an environment that would toast a straight petrolium oil.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: DarylS]
      #142158 - 17/09/09 11:47 AM

Quote:

Rod - automatic transmission fluid is synthesized from crude oil



Daryl, I knew that much, but am wondering what chemicals or processes give it the properties necessary for service in the extreme environment.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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TilleyMan
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Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142190 - 17/09/09 10:20 PM

9.3

For more info on lubricants than you could ever wish for, check Bob's site
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=58

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142206 - 18/09/09 12:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Rod - automatic transmission fluid is synthesized from crude oil



Daryl, I knew that much, but am wondering what chemicals or processes give it the properties necessary for service in the extreme environment.



Sorry- can't help - considering it was developed decades ago and was the second or perhaps first synthetic oil, it can't be too complicated. 1st or second was oil for the jet engines. Autotranny oil was probably a spin-off from jet engine oil.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Alberta
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Reged: 03/12/07
Posts: 66
Loc: Canada
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: DarylS]
      #142648 - 25/09/09 03:46 AM

I think the first generation of ATF was sperm whale oil up untill the 1970's. I have no Idea about how they make the new stuff.

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Mauser416
.300 member


Reged: 20/06/07
Posts: 162
Loc: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: Alberta]
      #142747 - 27/09/09 10:47 AM

ATF is basically paraffinic, mineral oil. Dexron/Mercon are listed as heavy, hydrotreated, paraffinic distillate. It also has some naphthenic oil as well. To get much more descriptive than that you have to start discussing distilation ranges and such. Of course they also mix in their proprietary blend of rust preventatives, anti-foulants, etc.

Brake fluids can be glycol based, mineral oil or silicone.

Eric

--------------------
There is nothing worse in this world than an enslaved man who naively believes himself free, except, perhaps, trying to explain to that same man his predicament.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: DarylS]
      #143058 - 02/10/09 10:48 PM

Daryl,
So tell us how you make Eds Red, specifically. Everyone touches on it but so far nobody has given the actual formula. I would like to be able to make some of this up to try on stubborn rusted bolts. Thanks,Bob H.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #143060 - 03/10/09 12:04 AM

Here's what is on my bench, from an article years ago by CE Ed Harris IIRC:

1 part Dextron II or III
1 part Kerosene
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits
1 part Acetone

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Altamaha
.333 member


Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144461 - 26/10/09 02:04 PM

We have used ATF in the shop for many, many years as a general rust preventative and light lubricant to protect ways on lathes and milling machines. I mix 2/3 ATF and 1/3 Kerosene or Mineral Spirits, this mix flows well in a spray bottle. At the end of each day we spray the ways with the mixture.

ATF has excellent anti rust additives and extreme pressure additives. The shop is 2 miles from salt water, ways are still bright after over 20 years in the same location!

Don't forget Marvel Mystery Oil!

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Jeremy
.224 member


Reged: 14/05/08
Posts: 14
Loc: USA
Re: Great info on penetrating oils [Re: Altamaha]
      #148183 - 17/12/09 08:32 AM

A few years ago I ran across a site by a guy Fr. Frog (actual Priest) and he has a load of info on homemade lubricants,solvents and more. He lists the recipe for Ed's Red and makes a few substitutes. Instead of Kerosene you can substitute Kroil. I have used it and it works great and it is cheap. I used the Kroil because it makes the mix smell better than mineral spirits and kerosene. I made a batch a year ago and it has never seperated. The acetone is for dissolving plastic wad, mineral spirits for carbon, ATF for lubrication, and Kroil for carbon and lubrication. He states if you want you can add Ammonia for copper removal. Here is his site http://www.frfrogspad.com/index.htm. He is very nice and replies to emails.

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