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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Robgunbuilder
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12GaFH double Rifle project
      #121203 - 15/12/08 03:42 AM

Many of you know me from the AR Big Bore Forum as the Inventor of the 12GaFH. If you have been following the thread (55K long now) you know that we have had a great deal of success with a low pressure version of the cartridge that operates at about 24,000 psi and still delivers 5K Ft-lbs of energy with bullets made from Brass and Aluminum. The cartridge is so impressive it simply screams to be put into a double. We know that a simple H&R/NEF single shot with a simple but sturdy under barrel locking system can handle these loads including Proofs to approx. 30Kpsi with no issues so I dont see why a strong double wont survive as long as things are kept to the "10Ton Rule". Well I've had a great deal of interest in a Double Rifle version. I have aquired a Zabala Mercury 10Ga SXS that may be suitable for this process. Because this cartridge generates considerable muzzel pressures due to the slow powders we use in this version, I need relatively thick muzzel wall thickness, thus the 10Ga approach. The questions I have are for those of you who have actually built Doubles before. BTW I have very good machine shop equipment available including manual and CNC lathes and Mills( can pgrm in CadCAM also)so very little is beyond my machining capability. just no direct experience building doubles. I own a few very nice English Double Guns and have always admired them. Now that I'm retired, I have the time to do this project right.

I was planning on a simple monoblock approach and was planning on threading the monoblock in the Lathe with a 4 jaw to hold it. What approach do you use to dial it in? Do you make a short tennon for a internal #3 jacobs taper ( or equivalent to orient the monoblock),clamp down the 4 jaw then dial in on the interior chamber walls? I could also see doing this on a faceplate with a appropriate fixture to hold the monoblock. What has worked for you? Can you post some pictures also?
Alternatively, I could use a CNC mill and use a coaxial indicator to center the chamber, then threadmill it. How far down do you thread and what thread pitch do you reccomend?
Finally, How much larger should the barrel be at the joint so that once soldered in place, a good peening can be done to hide the joint? I need to order barrels soon, so I need this info.
Thanks very much for your input ahead of time and yes, I'll be buying the book!-Rob

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DarylS
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121219 - 15/12/08 05:16 AM

Check out the 12 gauge From Hell threads. Similar loading is being done using 20, 12, 10 and 8 and now 16 bore 2 3/4" plastic on up to 3 1/2" brass cases with slow-burning powders and a variety of actions. I suggest you contact the author of that thread Ed Hubel. This link will get you the 10 page. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post121088

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: DarylS]
      #121221 - 15/12/08 05:37 AM

I know the thread very well and it does not contain the info I am looking for. Ed and I have worked on the 12GaFH project in all its forms for 7 years now. I am using the original 3.85 inch .50BMG brass case blown out to 12ga with my thread on 12GaFH Rims. The case is capable of 55KPSI but in a double it will be restricted to 26Kpsi. -Rob

Edited by Robgunbuilder (15/12/08 05:59 AM)

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peter
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121226 - 15/12/08 06:50 AM

rob

which are the loadings you will use ?

and did you test them through a pressure barrel ?

i think some 10 gauge actions would work, when you have the tools for it, then a set of shoe lump would be nice as well.

best regards

peter

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450_366
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121234 - 15/12/08 07:40 AM

Do you realy need to thread the monoblock? I think the most common way is to solder the tubes into the monoblock, beeing carefull to pre solder the block and barrels first offcourse.

The thing i heard is that if you make a sharp edge or cun into the barrel or block it will take less force to break it. It appears that to regain the strength you would need to add a lot more material (diameter) to compensate for the weakening. Its as if you take a rod and make a cut into it it will break at the cut if you bend it much sooner than a rod thats smaller in diameter and with no cut made into it. And a solder joint should be sufficient to hold it into place.

But i think somebody will tell you that treading is the only way to be safe. He would also be competent to calculate the streangth of the bond if you state the diameter and lenght of the monoblock. Yeah, and also i mean real solder the low temp stuff.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: 450_366]
      #121235 - 15/12/08 08:23 AM

I've used a Oehler strain guage calibrated against a 30-06 to develop the loads as well as quickload to estimate the pressures. I'll probably use 200gr of H50BMG and a 1000gr reversible Darwin Beer keg Bullet but have many other options. In discussions with Butch Searcy, I've learned that he threads his monoblocks and barrels then solders and peens them. That seems like its the way to go. I've given some thought to a shoe lump also and it would be fun to make it that way. It would of course have the advantage of saving the original 10ga barrels. Should be a piece of cake to do in CADCAM. -Rob

Edited by Robgunbuilder (15/12/08 08:26 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121242 - 15/12/08 10:42 AM

I did mine on a face plate, with a thick block with a mandral drilled through, welded on the backside and bolted to the face plate. I then turned the taper to matck the chamber and made a clamp going from two studs out of the plate with a bar across the underlumps.

It is on the thread which is in the archive somewhere.






This is also a Zabala, but in this case a 3 1/2" mag.

NB Make sure that you hone the chamber and bore out first. It is hard chrome plated, I dident find out until I was ready to solder up. That was not the best time !!!

Regards

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Bramble
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Bramble]
      #121246 - 15/12/08 11:24 AM

As an appendum to the above. May I respectfully enquire why you would wish to do this ?. If you have the ability to build this, you can build a .700NE which will do all that the 12GFH will do and more, for the same pressure, and has some resale value afterwards. Same could be said for a 4 bore DR.
Whilst the 12GFH is an interesting achedemic exercise and fun, building a DR is a lot of work and it will only be good for one load anyway because of regulation.
If you have the mechinery you could take a Ruger #1 and scale up the breech block and action to utalise all the other parts and have a gun that would handle any 12GFH load and also be useable with different loads. A modern Farqy of sorts.

I cannot recall the thread used above, but from memory I just choose whatever had a minor diamiter that would suit the ID of the monoblock. I don't have my Zeus up here but from memory it was 7/8 BSF?? Judging from the picture and the length of the mono I guess I threaded about 1".

Regards

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Bramble]
      #121262 - 15/12/08 02:56 PM

Bramble- Thanks thats exactly what I was looking for. I thought a chamber Tenon would be the best way to go. This allows for proper alignment of the monoblock irrespective of any angular effects of their convergence. Check out the 12GaFH Thread on Accurate reloading. I built the first 12GaFH on a scaled up Borchardt action for full power loads. Ed Hubel went with a Savage 210 action much modified. We even used a TC Encore at one point! I also have a scaled up winchester High wall in the works. However, both actions will wind up as pretty heavy unfortunately if you want a full power gun!. The Borchardt gun weighs 26lbs and has driven a 1000gr bullet over 3100fps and some 400gr Sabots over 4500fps or a 2000gr Bore rider over 1500fps. No 700NE can ever match it! It simply has more case capacity( 355grs of Water) and can be operated at far higher pressures. .50 BMG cases are readily available, cheap and good to 55KPSI or more. I have their modification down to a science now! Using a .50BMG primer alows for reliable ignition of large slow powder charges which as you know has proven to be very problematic in the .700NE. The 12GaFH was built specifically to get around the California and US Federal Destructive devices laws and regulations, as basically anything in 12 ga is exempt from those laws. Pretty much true Globally in fact! The gun fires a 12 ga 2 3/4 inch birdshot cartridge easily! We have found that a H&R NEF single shot at 10lbs and a cost of about $300 US. can handle 1000gr bullets at 26KPSI at 1500fps and survive. It actually a great deal of fun! I think a similar load in a double should be no problem and provides for that all important second shot. In addition, its a Challenge as I've never built a double rifle before. I'm not at all concerned that a single load for a double will be necessary. We just need to determine what it is. This cartridge is extremely flexible and I've fired it from 2000gr bore riders at 1500fps to 240gr Aluminum bullets at 3000fps.
I see from your pictures, that you only thread the monoblock partially. Out of curiosity, why not all the way? Finally, do you Tin the inside threads and then recut them on the lathe as a last step or do you rely on the tinning of the barrel threads?-Rob

Edited by Robgunbuilder (15/12/08 03:06 PM)

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Bramble
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121275 - 15/12/08 08:29 PM

Okey dokey. The getting around the gun laws bit I understand. My muzzle loading pistol ( see the thread below) was built for similar reasons.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post121261

Why not threaded all the way was for the reason that you mentioned. To get a really good joint I tinned both threads and assembled it all hot. Now that is not too bad on an inch of thread but a bitch potentially on the full thing. The first barrel is OK, but you need to make an expanding brass mandral to fit inside the barrel for the second one to get enough purchase to wind the hot barrel in. Secondly you don't need to. 1" x 7/8 BSF is not far off a SR mauser thread and that is good for 60K PSI without the solder. Concentricity is going to be a problem perhaps with a full thread because of the tapers involved. To single point thread it would need too much jigging and messing around. I just shortened the mandral (tenon) and run the tap in with the tailstock.
Watch the wood on the Zabala at the head, it is not the greatest design for heavy recoil.

Good luck with the project.

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Bramble]
      #121303 - 16/12/08 04:31 AM

Bramble- Very Interesting and good approach. I'll bet running that tap in by Hand was fun at the end. I was thinking of just single pointing it myself. I assume you used a T wrench on that brass mandrel to wind it into the monoblock. Can you elaborate further? By the way how much larger in diameter did you leave your barrel to allow for the peening to conceal the joint? Did you glassbed the Zabala stock or reinforce it further? I appreciate the opportunity to pick your brain.
Finally, with all the TSA Airline issues with guns over .50 caliber and various Country restrictions, it may be very hard in the future to take any of our beloved big bores to Africa or Australia. Not so the 12Ga. Its legal everywhere. My creation is a simply way to get basically .458 Lott performance with a pre-Expanded bullet ( .458vs .729). I also engrave my Rims with 12GaFH and SHOTGUN so that there can be no regulatory confusion! Heck Its just a Brass/all weather 3.5 inch shotgun-see it says so on the rim! With Aluminum bullets its ECO friendly TOO!-Rob

Edited by Robgunbuilder (16/12/08 04:50 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121308 - 16/12/08 05:43 AM

Once you get a good square start on the lathe with a taper tap then it is no big problem to get the 2nd and plug in straight. The trouble with singlepointing is that one slip into that blind hole and the whole job is screwed. Plus this way the thread tapers out and does not need the tool clearence groove of the SR way. IMHO this is one less stress point.

My sizes were diferent to yours, so lets say for 12G. Take 1 1/2" long brass rod, turn it to bore size. Drill it for 1" and tap a 1/2" thread, drill the remaiming 1/2", 1/4" dia, slit this up both sides till you meet the thread. Take a 1/2" bolt and turn a taper 3/16 to 5/16 on the bottom 1/2".
Put bolt into brass mandral, nip it up and the tapered bolt end expands the last 1/2" and it locks tight. The more force you have to turn with to put the barrels in the tighter it gets. When you are finished and it is all col it should come out easy. If not just tap it out from the breech end with a cleaning rod.

I confess not to using a T wrench but whatever ring spanner I had to hand

I dident peen the joint in because it was for myself as a personal Africa gun and not a client, it was a very tight joint anyway, just a hairline. I have a little 30-30 jones underlever fungun DR on the bench however on which I have done so. If it is for a client and an expensive job I would build shoe lumps or chopper lumps everytime, that is what I am doing on a 470 at the moment.

Yes I glassed the head of the stock, it was just not up to the job.

BTW are they rifled 12G barrels of tubes?

Regards

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Bramble]
      #121322 - 16/12/08 08:26 AM

Bramble- Yes they are rifled barrels. 1:22 twist and probably 26 inches long. I am measuring everything today and then will get Pac-Nor to make them for me. They made my first 12Ga 2" diameter barrels. Thank you for the excellent explanation. One point of clarification, You mentioned that you bored out the chambers to get rid of the chrome plating. Didnt that boring remove any taper in the chamber? I was actually also thinking of a shoe lump approach. One question is,do you make the shoe lump with a built in angle of a few degrees for initial convergence or are the barrel channels parralel to each other? Finally do you use a furnace to "braze the whole thing together and if so what temp do you use? The reason I ask is i could CNC out a shoe lump pretty easily if I knew enough to do it right.-Rob

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DarylS
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121323 - 16/12/08 08:48 AM

Rob - question - why did you go with such a fast twist in the 12 bores? 22" is excessively fast, isn't it? Perhaps the ratio of bore to a 1,000 gr. bullet is about the same as a .45 cal. and a 400gr.? This, of course, would make this twist appropriate. I guess I've answered my own question?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bramble
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: DarylS]
      #121326 - 16/12/08 10:38 AM

I jut honed out the chambers with some 120 grade paper on a shaft, It is only a few thou and the finish leaves a nice key for the solder. It may have removed some taper but not anything that I would consider significant. I would perhaps have bored it out if I had discovered it soon enough!!
But then again perhaps what I did was for the best as holding concentric to bore it would be a bear.

I make the shoe lump parralel.

I don't do the brazing. I farm that out to have it done in vaccum so I do not have the specs you need. Open hearth has problems of scaleing and embrittlement/temper. I do not have the expertiese in this field to give me the margins of safety that I want. Doubtless it can be done open hearth and has been in the past, it is just a personal thing that I do not want to do it.
This next set are for the firm that does it for me to try lazer beam brazing on. It is new for them on these steels and aparently the heat spread is just a couple of mm's. Should be interesting.

Regards

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Bramble]
      #121327 - 16/12/08 12:11 PM

Bramble- Excellent description once again. Yes that was the logic I used for a 1:22 twist. I also found it worked on a .700 I built on a regular .50BMG rimless case. Progenitor of the 12GaFH!
I was just doing some measurements on my Zabala 10Ga( BTW it is a 3.5 inch magnum) barrels in order to supply pac-NOR with some specs. Looks like at the rear end of the monoblocks the barrels measure 2.323 across with some room to spare. I need to keep the muzzel wall thickness as large as possible for the 12gaFH because of its muzzel pressure, so do you think a barrel of 1.16 for 3"( the barrel will be turned down to make the tenon and threaded to go into the monoblock, but will be 1.16 at the rear end of the monoblock, followed by a taper to 1.1 in 3 inches, then straight 1.1 for 18 inches at the muzzel will fit and look OK? Or do I need to account for the taper of the chamber section of the monoblock? Again, Thank you very much for the information, nothing like experience to save making mistakes.-Rob

Edited by Robgunbuilder (16/12/08 12:16 PM)

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Bramble
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121328 - 16/12/08 12:30 PM

The trouble with all the conversions, mine included as I see them cosmetically, is the transition from the old tube/monoblock and the new barrels in terms of profile. and the fact that shotgun tubes are effectivly curved.
I don't think that I can comment from measurments alone, it is so subjective. To make it look really good then you have to strike up the barrels by hand to get smooth transitions rather than a collection of tapers. You can see it on mine in certain lights and I will restrike it when I have time (HoHo).
I would I think have the transitions made abrupt without taper and strike by hand to blend them in.

Regards

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Bramble]
      #121329 - 16/12/08 12:50 PM

Bramble- So do you think it would work better to just go 1.16 for 3" and then long slow taper to 1.1 at the muzzel? Any issues you see with a diameter of 1.16 causing any interferences?-Rob

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Al_in_Mi
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121768 - 21/12/08 08:52 PM

Rob, what slugs do you plan on shooting?

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Al_in_Mi]
      #121798 - 22/12/08 03:52 AM

I have had great success with CNC turned 1085gr brass reversible bullets called "Beer Kegs"( Hugh Flat nose on one end, three grooves and a Hollow point on the other).Look like little beer kegs. Same bullet can be shot made in Aluminum for 350gr and a deep HP version at 240 grs. The 240gr bullets with 170g of IMR3031 hit over 3000fps, are accurate but of course have no BC. Other guys have 1400gr lead molds and we sometimes remington Sabots.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121860 - 22/12/08 10:30 AM

Robgunbuilder,

I am no expert (or even knowledgeable hobbyist for that matter - just a learner) but I have recently been in touch with Gabrielle Recknagel at Recknagel and she is selling sidelock actions for double rifles as well as Mauser actions built by Johannsen for her company to many different specifications. If you choose not to use the Zabala shotgun action, maybe she would have something for you? I have her contact information if you need it though I am sure that you can afford to forget more about guns and not bother than I will ever learn, and you would likely have her contact information and more.

There are some gunsmiths here including Johann Vilhjalmsson who build double rifles and I shall alert them to this thread and ask them to weigh in with their suggestions.

In any case, please do post pictures of this project as it progresses. This would be an ultimate double rifle, no doubt.

Thanks for bringing this discussion here and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #121940 - 23/12/08 05:40 AM

Mehul- Nice to talk to you again and thanks for the information. As things are progressing, I am leaning toward using the Zabala action but will have it re-hardened by Butch Searcy. I am now starting to make my own monoblock rather than use the zabala shotgun barrel monoblock as a organ donor. I have started the CAD CAM programing for the monoblock and its coming along nicely. Plan to do the monoblock in 4130 steel and let the machines to all the rough work and will finish things by hand (smoke and file). Should be fun! Till then simply having a ball with the SS NEF 12GaFH. Best Bang for the Buck in existance.-Rob

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #121973 - 23/12/08 01:47 PM

Rob,
One thing that you need to know is that the shotgun barrels converge from the breech face to the muzzles, therefore the chambers are not parallel to one another. You would do better to set up the monoblock in a vertical mill, indicate on the inside walls until square, bore out to your thread's major diameter, thread with the appropriate tap, and face off square to the centre. That's how all of my conversions have been done. I always DO thread AND solder, gives a 100% strong union and provides a crush fit between the barrel and the monoblock so that the seam is barely visible. You want to use a tap with the maximum # of threads per inch in order to keep the thread depth to a minimum. On the one 10 gauge that I used, 15/16"-32 worked well.

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Robgunbuilder
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #122076 - 24/12/08 05:55 AM

Ronvella- Thanks. Yup, I'm very aware of the barrel convergence and You must be reading my mind as thats exactly the approach I had deceided on( easiest to do on a Mill). Did you ream the chamber or bore it to the minor thread diameter? I think for a 15/16-32NS that should be .906 so a 29/32 reamer should work well. ID of the 10ga monoblock is .8460 Major thread diameter is .9375 and I'm going to counterbore the monoblock to 1.050 for a depth of.250 so that I have as much barrel steel as possible around the joint. I'll have to corespondingly step the barrel before the threaded section. The 12GaFH chamber will be about .770 at the barrel to monoblock joint which I hope will be enough of a safety margin. Monoblock and Barrel OD's are 1.116.Pressure will be kept to 26KPSI. Your thoughts-Rob

Edited by Robgunbuilder (24/12/08 11:09 AM)

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 12GaFH double Rifle project [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #122115 - 24/12/08 01:49 PM

Rob,
I've always had my tool and die maker friend (I have a 9"x 32" South Bend lathe but no mill) bore out the chambers on his mill. Frankly, when you look at the cost of big reamers and taps, it's actually cheaper to pay a pro to bore the chambers rather than to buy a reamer. I have three taps now, 15/16-32, 13/16-32, and 3/4-32. Each of them, with shipping and taxes, cost me over $100 CDN. This durned hobby is gonna make me poor! Two books that I find invaluable when planning these projects are Machinery's Handbook, for all of the available threads and their dimensions, and The Gun Digest Book Of Shotgun Gunsmithing, by Ralph Walker. The latter has all of the line drawings and dimensions for the chambers and cartridges in all of the gauges from 10 to 410. Suggest that you use Hi-Force 44 solder and its proper flux, from Brownell's. It has a strength of 28,000 psi and is FAIRLY impervious to hot bluing, provided that you don't leave the barrels in the salts bath for an hour!

Edited by ronvella (24/12/08 01:57 PM)

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