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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Wildcat cartridge for double rifles
      #107035 - 09/06/08 05:32 AM


Does anyone know of an expert in cartridge design? I have come up with an idea for a light "medium bore" cartridge that I think might be a good one to use in double rifles but I need the input of a real expert before I get too far into it and spend a bunch of money on the idea.
Any help would be really appreciated.


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bonanza
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107037 - 09/06/08 06:03 AM

Whatever you have in mind will have been done already by H&H, Purdey, Jeffery of Rigby. They have been field tested and have stood the test of time.

Here is the list of British cartridges that will meet your criteria from lightest to heaviest.

400/350 NE.

.360 No.2 NE.

.369 Purdey

.375 flanged



If you fancy an American cartridge then I suggest:


.35 Winchester or .405 Winchester.



You can see a picture of these at:

http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/cartridge%20range.htm#

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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450_366
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #107038 - 09/06/08 06:06 AM

Surely not everything has been done, you could always find a new way to match an old cartridge in performance.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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bonanza
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: 450_366]
      #107040 - 09/06/08 06:11 AM

Right, I wonder how well that 500/416 has done? Nuff Said.

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: 450_366]
      #107042 - 09/06/08 07:31 AM

I would like to understand the real objective. Is it a need or a wish? Are you an enthusiast with spare cash to spend on an expensive project and not worry if it flops? If that is the case, you have no limitations. If the objective is to be absolutely successful, then you are better off contacting a gunmaker first & discussing your wish list. The gunmaker would guide you the options that they can guarantee.

If you are planning a home made project, you will have to take the risks of possibly losing money.

I am with bonanza on this one.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Nakihunter]
      #107048 - 09/06/08 08:36 AM

First of all, to say that everything has already been done, is just silly. Our cartridge companies come up with new calibers all the time. I don't intend to blow a whole wad of money on something that isn't feasible from a ballistic standpoint. What I need is someone who really knows this stuff from the ground up, not an armchair expert.
As far as spending huge amounts of money to complete this project, that is not going to happen, I don't have huge sums of money to begin with, and I wouldn't blow it on a deal like this if I did have it.
A want or a need? That's a good question but I think you will have to admit that most of the stuff we talk about on here , comes under the heading of wants. I don't think anyone really NEEDS a Lightweight hunting double rifle in an effective caliber for North American game, We just WANT it.
I won't say that my idea hasen't ever been considered before, but I don't think it has ever been done before. If it has, I have never seen or heard about it.
For all you guys who only hunt huge animals with humungus guns, you can probably drop out of this discussion right now. That's not at all what I have in mind. I might as well go on ahead and tell you what I thought might make a good double rifle cartridge.
I found some 8mm. barrels in good to better condition and was hunting around for a cartridge that could be used in these after being rechambered. What I came up with is the oldest sucessful semi-smokeless cartridge ever made, the 8mm. Label. It has a HUGE rim, bigger than the 45/70. The problem comes in when we look at the case, it has a secondary sloping area before you reach the neck. In my thinking I figured that that might make the back pressure against the standing breech too high because of the slope. So, what if the case were fire formed in a new redisgned chamber where the case walls were straightened? The shoulder could also be changed to give a stiffer angle and both would increase the available space in the case plus help it hold up better inside the chamber, maybe? The back thrust against the standing breech would be lessened and spread over that huge head meaning that alot of slow burning powder could be used to give good velocity without going too far overboard on pressure. You guys toss this around and after you get through laughing, let me know if any of you think this idea has any value. P.S.- I have dropped the idea of using the old surplus barrels, it too much work building one of these guns to risk using old barrels.
Bob H.


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107050 - 09/06/08 08:44 AM


I should also tell you that my reason for doing this is so I can have a low pressure, effective hunting cartridge to be used in conversion rifles made on shotgun actions. Ideally the gun would weigh around 7 pounds and use light for caliber bullets, mostly on deer, black bear, or wild hogs up close. Bob H.


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107052 - 09/06/08 09:19 AM

Quote:


I should also tell you that my reason for doing this is so I can have a low pressure, effective hunting cartridge to be used in conversion rifles made on shotgun actions. Ideally the gun would weigh around 7 pounds and use light for caliber bullets, mostly on deer, black bear, or wild hogs up close. Bob H.




You have several. The 30-30 and the 30-40 .375Win, .357 Mag, 38-55, 358 Win, 356 Win, .32 WS, .405 win, .444Marlin, 38-70 win, 38-56 win, 35 win and I might have missed a few

If you want 8mm's try 8 x 57R, 8 x 42R, 8 x 48R 8 x 51R

In addition are the Brits mentioned above.

What void for a wildcat to fill amoungst that lot I cannot imagine.
The best conversion medium for the US would be 30-30 or 30-40.

But then there is no market for them anyway. They are not cost effective to build and they do not have a good resale price.

You might get a decent price for a converted, working tool, heavy, but even then it would have to be damm good and the man hours needed to build one would earn a better bottom line employed at McDonalds.

Regards


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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107053 - 09/06/08 09:22 AM

Birdhunter,

Firstly, welcome to NE,; you will love this forum.

Actually, a number for DR enthusiast will own a small/medium bore double rifle along with there stopper class. Many of our European fellow only hunt with light weight double rifles.

If you are building a homemade double, then a wildcat cartridge is not so odd because the rifle will never have intrinsic value.

You eluded to pressure, so I'll assume you know the issues.

With that said, let's build a wildcat DR rimmed case. The 9.3x74 is a good dooner case. I like the .358 so how about a 9.3x350?

However, my only worry is pressure. From the several men who have converted shotguns; the rule of thumb is 10 tons. You might have go think on the lines of .458 caliber, say 350 round nose.

B.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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CowboyCS
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Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107054 - 09/06/08 09:29 AM

I'm in the middle of converting a shotgun to 32-40WCF using 8mm barrels right now, for most of the reasons you listed. 32-40 is a respectable medium cartridge that with a heavy bullet can perform fairly well on most game in North America, it is a low pressure cartridge that happens to fit the .323 barrels. And being in the black powder category and limited to 40grs it is a lot safer for shotgun conversion. The only thing it lacks in your criteria is the velocity.
I'm not trying to discourage you, if you want to wildcat a cartridge more power to you, one of my favorite cartridges was a wildcat up until recently(338-06), but why reinvent the wheel when their are cartridges available that will almost do what you are asking without the expense and the headache?

C

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: CowboyCS]
      #107061 - 09/06/08 10:48 AM


Thanks for all your ideas. You may be right, maybe I am trying to re-invent the wheel. I'll have to give this more thought. The 30-30 was one caliber I considered early on and I may have to go back to it. I have already done four conversions to 45/70 using 300 grain H.P. bullets. They work well on the game I hunt. As far as intinsic value, I think the guns I build have their own form of value. They are easy to carry all day, they don't kick your head off, they are cheap to load and they are accurate. They fit well and the components are easy to get and I don't have to sell my truck and my wife's car to be able to afford one The 32 caliber idea just appealed to me as a good second cartridge to build on for a rifle. I have also built two 20 gauge rifles and converted a beater 20 gauge Ruger Red Label to 45/70 for a friend. I do have some small amount of experience in this area.
I wish I knew how to attach a couple of pictures to this post so you guys can see that I'm not some sort of flake making up topics to talk about. I don't mind sharing, I just don't know how to attach the photos. Bob H.


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: CowboyCS]
      #107070 - 09/06/08 11:57 AM


CowboyCS,
Thanks for your advice, I hadn't thought about the 32/40 as a double rifle cartridge but I don't see why it wouldn't work well enough and be a good deer cartridge. What sort of speed do you think you will get out of it? I'm not a speed freak myself, load 45/70 shells with 300 grainers to about 1500 to 1600. That falls into the trapdoor catagory. I could do alot more and the guns will easily stand it, but why do it? You get more noise and recoil and it costs more to load them hot, and I'm sure the game doesn't care one way or the other. They are going to just as dead using either light or hot loads. I have never lost a game animal using the 45/70, but then I get close and put it in the right place to do the job. I'm sure you can do the same just as well with your new 38/40!
Will you load this gun with black powder or one of the new substitutes? Bob H.


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pinotguy
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Reged: 03/02/07
Posts: 57
Loc: CO
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107071 - 09/06/08 12:05 PM

How about the .348 WCF? Winchester still offers one factory loading and they also make brass. Bullet selection is a major disadvantage but the .348 was a highly effective medium bore. I know it was associated more with the M71 - a lever-action, but I've always thought it would make a nice double rifle cartridge.

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CowboyCS
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Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: pinotguy]
      #107072 - 09/06/08 12:29 PM

I'm planning to regulate it to shoot 200gr Nosler partitions, over probably 35grs of black powder. I'm just guessing but it will probably be around 1500fps maybe slower, I'm not to concerned with velocity because most of the shots I make on deer were I live are inside of 50 yards. I'll know when I put it through the crono. One of the other things about the 32-40wcf is if you can't find brass for a price you like then you can just resize/form 30-30 brass. It'll be a while before I get it done, I'm not even close to regulating it yet. It's one of those back burner projects that I work on when I feel like it.

C

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: CowboyCS]
      #107073 - 09/06/08 01:26 PM

Well if you are wildcatting go for it. How about 338/303 or 338/06 Rimmed.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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gallatin
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Reged: 30/05/07
Posts: 44
Loc: Olympia,Wa. USA
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: DoubleD]
      #107076 - 09/06/08 02:42 PM

The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John Donnelly
ISBN is 0-88317-239-9 Has over 900 pages of cartridges a page per cartridge, much good info there
John


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107080 - 09/06/08 04:09 PM

Quote:

First of all, to say that everything has already been done, is just silly. Our cartridge companies come up with new calibers all the time. I don't intend to blow a whole wad of money on something that isn't feasible from a ballistic standpoint. What I need is someone who really knows this stuff from the ground up, not an armchair expert.
As far as spending huge amounts of money to complete this project, that is not going to happen, I don't have huge sums of money to begin with, and I wouldn't blow it on a deal like this if I did have it.
A want or a need? That's a good question but I think you will have to admit that most of the stuff we talk about on here , comes under the heading of wants. I don't think anyone really NEEDS a Lightweight hunting double rifle in an effective caliber for North American game, We just WANT it.
I won't say that my idea hasen't ever been considered before, but I don't think it has ever been done before. If it has, I have never seen or heard about it.
For all you guys who only hunt huge animals with humungus guns, you can probably drop out of this discussion right now. That's not at all what I have in mind. I might as well go on ahead and tell you what I thought might make a good double rifle cartridge.
I found some 8mm. barrels in good to better condition and was hunting around for a cartridge that could be used in these after being rechambered. What I came up with is the oldest sucessful semi-smokeless cartridge ever made, the 8mm. Label. It has a HUGE rim, bigger than the 45/70. The problem comes in when we look at the case, it has a secondary sloping area before you reach the neck. In my thinking I figured that that might make the back pressure against the standing breech too high because of the slope. So, what if the case were fire formed in a new redisgned chamber where the case walls were straightened? The shoulder could also be changed to give a stiffer angle and both would increase the available space in the case plus help it hold up better inside the chamber, maybe? The back thrust against the standing breech would be lessened and spread over that huge head meaning that alot of slow burning powder could be used to give good velocity without going too far overboard on pressure. You guys toss this around and after you get through laughing, let me know if any of you think this idea has any value. P.S.- I have dropped the idea of using the old surplus barrels, it too much work building one of these guns to risk using old barrels.
Bob H.




Hi, no expert but wouldnt the streighter walls and the increased angle on the shoulder add to the pressure? And even if the larger base does distribute the pressure the total breech pressure would go up wouldnt it?

Must also mention the 8mm/360 round. And that i have tryed making myself a rimmed round also.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Paatti
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: 450_366]
      #107082 - 09/06/08 04:15 PM

If you want something not so common try 8,2x53R it is necked up 7,62x53R also known 7,62x54R. Shooting .323 bullets. Quite low max pressure but still enough power. Cartridge is developed for moose in Finnland when under 8mm rifles were banned in moose hunting. 13g bullet at 770m/s pressure 340MPa.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Paatti]
      #107087 - 09/06/08 09:20 PM


Paatti, Thanks for your help, I will carefully consider your idea. It is the closest to what I want that I have seen so far. Bob H.


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Marrakai
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107088 - 09/06/08 09:42 PM

Late post, apologies, but the .32-40 was a popular British double rifle chambering for decades. Kynoch loaded the ammo for probably half a century.

Here's a lovely little high-grade Tolley belonging to a Darwin resident:




32/40 EX CORDITE 27 1/2 - 165gr MAX

This cartridge is just like a mini- .450 NE. Marvellous fun to shoot! ...and very capable on medium-sized game like deer/boar/blackies up close if you can shoot!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #107090 - 09/06/08 10:18 PM

I have a very nice Westley Richards boxlock double in 32-40, as originally chambered by WR in the 1920s. It will shot nice groups with inexpensive American commercial loads, and the function of the gun is an absolute pleasure. (Ejectors leave me two neat piles behind me on either side of the shooting station at the end of a session.) This is a very good choice for a low recoil, low cost light hunting load for a DR. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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oupa
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Reged: 01/03/06
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Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #107105 - 10/06/08 12:43 AM

How about the .32Win. Spl.??? Stick a 8mm expander plug in your dies and use .323 bullets or with factory ammo chances are accuracy will only be slightly affected by the 0.002" difference. Better yet if someone unfamiliar with your work ever ends up with that rifle the undersized factory bullets won't hurt him even if he never gets the accuracy the rifle is capable of.

I cringe everytime I hear someone pitch an idea about "downloading" a factory cartridge to make it safe in a particular firearm. As most of our firearms will outlive us it be a terrible legacy for your child or grandchild or even a stranger to be injured or worse because he didn't know this little tid bit. I know that's not what you're suggesting here but it seemed like a good time to get it off my chest. For those who insist on such things PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE at least clearly mark the barrel(s) with the correct load info. OK, I'll get off the soapbox now...

Edited by oupa (10/06/08 12:46 AM)


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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: oupa]
      #107109 - 10/06/08 01:56 AM

I too have some reservations about a 'wildcat' in any rifle, let alone a DR originally designed for low pressure cartridges. The 32-40, which started life as a BP cartridge, and which is a more traditional DR chambering is a safer choice than most, but one should always be careful about using any rifle where it hasn't been proofed for a particular load, and when in doubt, load down, not up. I now turn the soapbox, as oupa terms it, over to the next party. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #107116 - 10/06/08 02:52 AM


In answer to all who wrote in with concerns about laod markings, I X out any caliber markings on the outside of the barrels on any gun converted, AND I mark the loading info on the barrel flats including powder type and weight and max bullet weight. I make sure that nobody can claim ignorance after the fact. I also do not push the limits of any loading for any converted double rifles. My loads for the 45/70 are well within the strength limits of the gun, about the top end for trapdoor springfields.
My loads for the 20 gauge rifles use the Lyman hour glass shaped slug that comes out at 350 grains using Lyman #2 alloy. I use dead soft lead and that makes them some heavier but not that much. When I proof them, I use a modified base plug in the mold that casts a pure lead slug of 425 grains for proofing only. These are loaded over the same powder charge as the regulation loading. That gives me a projectile that weighs 21.5 % over the service load. Even the proof load bullet is well under and ounce. These are loaded over small amounts of Universal Clays powder to around 1500 FPS. This is not your average dangrous game load but it does great on deer and hogs for sure and would certainly work for black bears as well. Bob H.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Wildcat cartridge for double rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #107127 - 10/06/08 07:00 AM

Quote:

I too have some reservations about a 'wildcat' in any rifle, let alone a DR originally designed for low pressure cartridges. The 32-40, which started life as a BP cartridge, and which is a more traditional DR chambering is a safer choice than most, but one should always be careful about using any rifle where it hasn't been proofed for a particular load, and when in doubt, load down, not up. I now turn the soapbox, as oupa terms it, over to the next party. Dave




Why concernes for a wildcat? If its a wildcat no one would be able to load it with anything other than the cartridge it was intended for.
Would a cartridge that could shoot a 380 grain 9,3 or 9,5mm in 750m/s at low pressure (45000psi or so) work in a double? And is there any old cartridge with a rim that does it (and if so damn)?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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