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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: french connection [Re: Marrakai]
      #367430 - 03/07/22 01:57 AM

Quote:

John:
I'm sure you already know this, but being a rifle shooter your whole life let me remind you that there are three crucial things you need to concentrate on to shoot a target handgun well:

1. Front Sight
2. Front Sight
3. Front Sight!

The rear sight is only there to give you a light-gap either side of the front sight.

If you are fitting optics or holographic sights just ignore the above!

I well remember not being able to hit sh!t with the first handgun I was required to use a lifetime ago, a Ruger .357 Security Six, until someone explained the sighting difference to me. I was trying to sight it like a rifle: hopeless! No longer remember who gave me that sage advice, but I am forever grateful.

French connection? None. Thread well-and-truly hijacked now!



Missed this post. I've beev0n shooting club handguns for maybe 8 years? I will still be doing so, using club 9mm ammo as my .38 Super ammo is too expensive.

I actually shoot reasonably well for boring target shooting, maybe. 480 to 490s out of 500. 10 shots at each 5, 7 15, 20 and 25 yards or metres of some such ranges. Really just competing against oneself. The longest range is getting a bit more blurry now. I shoot for fast accuracy. Accurate but as rapid fire as accurately possible. Sometimes use other stances, single hand, either, or double, hands reversed etc.

I am thinking the .22 RF next as ammo is easy. Join a Metal silhouette club and try for a 1911 .45 ACP in six months time. Maybe a Webley for the same 6 months after that.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (03/07/22 02:39 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #367431 - 03/07/22 02:42 AM

Quote:

after along time again a 10,75x68 for sale, 485 euro make it a steal
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-type-Fournier-10-75x68-item-9310067.html







Why not!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: NitroX]
      #375286 - 19/03/23 01:57 AM

10,75x68 https://www.naturabuy.fr/CARABINE-CHASSE...m-10270547.html

















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #376405 - 29/04/23 04:00 AM

read the SN of the last rifle as 1025



the hard to find rifle in 8x60S, here marked as 8x60 Magnum
https://www.galeriedemars.fr/armes-categ...france-xxe.html









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #376415 - 29/04/23 07:03 AM

i want one of those cobs.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #376429 - 29/04/23 11:09 PM

it could be easy, buy yourself a cheap sporterlike this https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__ST__ETIENNE_MAS_36_SPORTER_BOLT_ACTION_RIFLE_-LOT494653.aspx

I have the front and rear sight for an 8 mm that can be used for any other caliber up to 8 mm maybe thicker. it would be very simple for a gunsmith to softsolder this parts giving the distinguish look to the rifle.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: NitroX]
      #378190 - 31/07/23 02:20 AM

one original 7x57 that survive, SN 481
https://www.galeriedemars.fr/chasse-tir-...france-xxe.html









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #378216 - 31/07/23 10:18 PM



"Arme de stock en 7x57 produit à la Manufacture d'armes de St Etienne pour l'export vers l'Allemagne, sans succès les armuriers de l'époque on acheté le stock à la MAS dans les années 70, état neuf avec de fines traces de stockage sur le bois et la peinture sans accident, seulement éprouvée à St Etienne à l'époque."


Interesting, but a rifle only intended for export to Germany, since at that time this caliber could only be used in France with a special permit.

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: grandveneur]
      #378218 - 01/08/23 12:12 AM

to my knowledge there was no problem if you bring the rifle to the colonies because the law was only for the main land.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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grandveneur
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #378223 - 01/08/23 01:13 AM

Not only, the gun law of 18 April 1939 also applied to the colonies.

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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: grandveneur]
      #378224 - 01/08/23 01:15 AM

Very interesting.

So...what markets were these sold in other than the aforementioned Germany? I've never heard of them being sold in the USA for example.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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grandveneur
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #378225 - 01/08/23 04:49 AM

Unfortunately I do not know it.

The civilian version of the MAS 36 was not very popular in France, despite the cartridge 7x54 MAS Fournier, which would have been a good hunting cartridge.

Some may be due to the military rifle MAS 36 which was the weapon of the French forces and was in use until the seventies. I myself made my basic training by the army with such a weapon. This rifle was perhaps associated with military service, which was not a pleasant time for many Frenchman's.

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: grandveneur]
      #378228 - 01/08/23 06:02 AM

they were made in the early postwar period as a low budget bolt action hunting rifle for hunter who lost the hunting gun in occupation times. times were still hard and money was low, many pre war makers were out of business for years.
thats the explanation I heard.

otherwise is a very large part of this rifles in 10,75x68. read somewhere that lions, leopards and other increase in the war years because there were no rifles, ammo,time and manpower for hunting them and this makes troubles in the colonies. the mas 36 action fits the 10,75x68 much better than a standard mauser action because its made for a case with the same diameter.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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grandveneur
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #378235 - 01/08/23 04:36 PM

I have never met a hunter armed with a MAS Fournier rifle on hunts in east France for the past 60 years.

The former German-speaking areas of eastern France are certainly exceptions, since 8x57IS caliber weapons were often used without hesitation. My father also used in the fifties and sixties a MS Stutzen caliber 8x56 MS, a cartridge in "1° Categorie" back then.

I don't know what it was at that time in the other regions of France and in the colonies.

I only remember that when I was young there were a few weapons for hunting in the colonies in the catalogues from Manufrance, including MAS Fournier, Rival and modified Mauser K98 , also in caliber 10,75x68, with pictures of hunters with various DG from Africa or Indochina.

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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: grandveneur]
      #378242 - 01/08/23 11:09 PM

Quote:

I have never met a hunter armed with a MAS Fournier rifle on hunts in east France for the past 60 years.

The former German-speaking areas of eastern France are certainly exceptions, since 8x57IS caliber weapons were often used without hesitation. My father also used in the fifties and sixties a MS Stutzen caliber 8x56 MS, a cartridge in "1° Categorie" back then.

I don't know what it was at that time in the other regions of France and in the colonies.

I only remember that when I was young there were a few weapons for hunting in the colonies in the catalogues from Manufrance, including MAS Fournier, Rival and modified Mauser K98 , also in caliber 10,75x68, with pictures of hunters with various DG from Africa or Indochina.



I'm curious as to how these rifles such as your Father's Stutzen were obtained after the war or remained in civilian hands during the war. It seems that many appear after the war and of course exist now as lancaster shows us in various posts. My assumption would be that they were owned by individuals who simply ignored confiscation laws and hid them during the war. Is this correct or were there some that having been confiscated by the occupation governments were later released (sold?) in some numbers by the post-war French (or German) governments?

A friend of mine in Norway tells me that there were many caches of weapons the "fell from the sky" (dropped to resistance units) and certainly arms were hidden there, too, but of these many sporterized and or original weapons such as your Father's Stutzen in Germany or France (or other occupied mainland European countries), I do not know much.

I imagine in this topic there are quite a number of very interesting stories!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #378243 - 02/08/23 12:06 AM

thats what I know about: under german occupation common citizen were be called upon to bring real guns to local collection points where they were stored. they could apply for a gun licence exspecially for small rimfire guns like flobert garden guns.
most of the hunting guns in 1940 were probably 12 and 16 ga double without any military value.
the german occupation force had no documents when gunownership was free and don't know who had what gun so it was only the threat of punishment that would bring people to the collection points. most man probably were bringing grandfathers old rusty hammergun to the german authoritys and hold the new pricy hammerless double in secret. anyway a lot of the guns were lost in the turmoil of the last war years.
also many people lost the money by the post war inflation. maybe not like it was in the pre war great depression but the money you hide under your bed lost real value. so in 1947 the production of a low price Mas 36 hunting rifle was an option.

if you compare pre war german, french and british gun catalogs they were all very similar and a rifle like the mannlicher schönauer was available everywhere.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #378245 - 02/08/23 01:12 AM

Danke sehr and merci beaucoup fellows!!

That is all very interesting and certainly fills in a lot of blanks in my knowledge. I find such aspects of history very interesting indeed.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #378262 - 02/08/23 04:49 AM

Weren't military cartridge chambered rifles illegal in France post WW2? Until recently?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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grandveneur
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Re: french connection [Re: NitroX]
      #378278 - 02/08/23 05:37 PM

One cannot say illegal.

It was about the weapons of the so-called "1° Catégorie". Illegal and banned weapons were something else, that was weapons of the "2° Catégorie".

They were weapons and, above all, cartridges that could only be own and used with the permission of the authorities. Obtaining a permit was subject to various conditions.

It wasn't just about weapons of the WWII, but in the first law of 1939 all handguns and rifles that were used in various armed forces worldwide from around 1870, but also partly before.

The law was subsequently corrected several times but was only abolished in 2013 and replaced by the European Union firearms laws.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: french connection [Re: grandveneur]
      #378285 - 03/08/23 12:58 AM

Thanks. What was the rationale for restricting military cartridge chambered rifles in France?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (03/08/23 01:02 AM)

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grandveneur
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Re: french connection [Re: NitroX]
      #378287 - 03/08/23 01:07 AM

Right-wing extremist terrorist activities in France shortly before the WWII.

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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: grandveneur]
      #378292 - 03/08/23 05:10 AM

I think such restriction are common in a number of countries. Italy and the creation of the 9x21 to replace the 9x19 comes to mind and in Latin America I think various countries have "military caliber" restrictions. My uncle was a missionary doctor in Ecuador and had to turn in his Savage over/under 20 ga/.30-30 as it was ".30 caliber" and I know a priest who's father was a retired police officer in Mexico who got into hot water for owning a 1911 .45 ACP, that one I suppose technically wasn't because it was "military" but rather because it was larger than the maximum ".38 caliber".

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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grandveneur
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #378297 - 03/08/23 05:39 AM

At long last was this gun law in France ridiculous, because it was all only about the cartridges.

For example, a hunter should not own a classic hunting rifle caliber 308 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield, but many semi-automatic military weapons of this calibers have been converted to caliber 7mm-08 or 270 Winchester, or wildcats were developed like a cartridge 30-06 that was only shortened at the neck, the so-called cartridge 30-06 court Cartry. That was legal.

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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: grandveneur]
      #378300 - 03/08/23 05:50 AM

Quote:

At long last was this gun law in France ridiculous, because it was all only about the cartridges.

For example, a hunter should not own a classic hunting rifle caliber 308 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield, but many semi-automatic military weapons of this calibers have been converted to caliber 7mm-08 or 270 Winchester, or wildcats were developed like a cartridge 30-06 that was only shortened at the neck, the so-called cartridge 30-06 court Cartry. That was legal.



I remember reading years ago in a Gun Digest that the laws resulted in the popularity at the time of .300 Winchester Magnum and 7 Remington Magnum in Browning BAR's used even for little roedeer. Were those popular chamberings?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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grandveneur
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #378303 - 03/08/23 06:08 AM

For decades, the French national caliber was the cartidge 7x64 Brenneke in bolt action rifles.

The cartridge 280 Remington was also often used in semi-automatic rifles from Remington.

Otherwise many cartridges were in use, certainly also the cartridges 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag in bolt action rifles and in semi-automatic rifles.

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