Quote:

---

Sic transit gloria mundi

---

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

When I mention Almasy here was talking about this topic at home also. My girl friend then order his book”schwimmer in der wüste”( swimmer in the dessert) because it wasn’t in our private library. Because there is only a german edition its maybe for interest of you to notice the small hunting related part.
He has a chapter about the barbary sheep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_sheep in egypt, in years after WW 1 also near to extinction. This subspecies is found again some years ago in egypt iirc.
Hunting this animal there under true dessert condition was pricelees for sportsman.
Almasy friend and protector, the egytian prince kemal el din was 1925 the first time in the uvenat mountains.
the prince was hunting for two weeks and don’t see a single sheep. He was talking with the native’s sheikh about let his mans looking for a good sheep and if they know one’s location send a message to the oasis al kufra
where the post was going to sollum, then with ship to alexandria and to kairo. There wasn’t a conection between this part of the lybian dessert and the nile in this time. Month later the letter arive in kairo that a very good male sheep was found. A letter is going back that the prince will arive in 3 weeks and he will give the tribe 20 camel’s if he can take the trophy and the fur back home.
No doubt this was a true present of a prince in the dessert.
The noble hunter arrive, the long greeting happen and the prince asking when the hunt will start. The sheikh answer: my lord, to follow your command my slave Zukkar have killed the animal this morning on the mountain. You will find the trophy and the fur in my modest home.
The prince was thinking something in the moment but give the 20 camels because this simple mind of sheikh would have never understood what was wrong.
In 1930 when prince kemal told almasy the story and show him the trophy it was the world record for the lybian dessert subspecies. Maybe something reading this have the roland ward book and can look if it’s contain this.


in the sudan, around 1930, two not so bad nil buffalo’s and the suitable way to transport them
see more in” Sudan notes and records “XIII/2 London 1930

---

fuhrmann send me a link for a kessler auction in switzerland that happen 2 weeks ago when we were around for another problem here. when I was looking into the link stumble about a Holland &Holland Mannlicher Schoenauer from the possession of prince kemal





possible that's the rifle prince kemal had have with him on this hunting trip in the lybian dessert. the rifle was delivered from H&H in January 1925 and the hunting expedition happen in 1925/26.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (08/05/10 04:50 PM)

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Ash

I find another 11x59R cartridge that may be very much like the .445 Grasset Nitro



civilian SFM with a unknown non- magnetic jacketed bullet, same oal like 8x50R Lebel

a shorter brass bullet on a 11x59R with SFM civil headstamp

11x59R blackpowder lead bullet load, lead lost the paper patching in the storms of time



if you reduce rim thickness and diameter of the first round you have the thing. I measure a .439 bullet diameter on the case mouth what will help to reduce pressure in the .451-.454 gras brarrels.

---

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Ash

I find another 11x59R cartridge that may be very much like the .445 Grasset Nitro



civilian SFM with a unknown non- magnetic jacketed bullet, same oal like 8x50R Lebel

a shorter brass bullet on a 11x59R with SFM civil headstamp

11x59R blackpowder lead bullet load, lead lost the paper patching in the storms of time



if you reduce rim thickness and diameter of the first round you have the thing. I measure a .439 bullet diameter on the case mouth what will help to reduce pressure in the .451-.454 gras brarrels.

---

But a .439 jacketed bullet down a .446-.451 barrel will shoot with horrid accuracy?
Do you suspect this to be the elusive .445 Nitro? I'm now certain it's like you said - 11mm Gras, smokeless load. Maybe they open the bolt to suit?
No idea on bullet weight/velocity.

Seriously debating on buying one and figuring it out and hunting with it.

---

That ctg. looks so much like the .43 Mauser, for the model 1871 Mauser. The first ones, including the 1871/76 had groove diameters of up to .457". The bullet was .446" and the ctg. case/chamber would not allow a bullet over .446" to be seated in it.
The original 77gr. Black Powder load would slug up the .439" soft lead bullet to give military accuracy of the day. However, when CIL and other makers started producing smokeless loads, still with the .446" bullet, accuracy was VERY disappointing - in the 1871's through 1871/76's.
The model 1884 Mauser, however(same basic action), had barrels with .466" groove diameters & those shot the new smokeless ammo fairly well.
So- if undersied bullets are used, they must be soft lea and be driven by black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

another “Austrian”problem, in the 1914 Franz Sodia/ Ferlach catalog is a new Mannlicher M 95 sporting rifle with half or full stock chambered for a 11,15mm full nitro cartridge.





This rifle was maybe only build in one or two examples because of the great war that started this year. I wasn’t able to find a possible cartridge for such an interesting chambering. All 11,15mm cartridges from the 11mm Montenegrin revolver to the 11,15x60R mauser M 71 are old style blackpowder rounds. Only the 11,2x60 Schueler , made to measure the Mauser 98 military action comes near to Sodia description: The Mannlicher M 95 repeaing rifle “Exzelsior” calibre 11,15mm with softpoint jacket bullet and nitropowder load is an perfect mountain rifle for hunting bears, wild boars etc., flatness of trajectory and great penetration.

I am looking for a case with a length between 50 and 60 mm and the base/rim diameter of the 8x50R Mannlicher. Remember that the mannlicher action needs the charger.


8x50R Mannlicher case, battlefield found
11,5x50R Werndl( the mother case for the 8x50R)
11,15x52R one of the low powered blackpowder rounds
11,2x60 Schueler

Someone had have made a similar round for the M 95 like August Schueler have made with his 11,2x60 for the Mauser.
If I found this cartridge someday its possible that a new sporter will be build with a Ruck-Zuck action.

---

years gone by but I don't forget this question. here is another good candidate
https://cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/1115-x-62r-mannlicher/



nitro cartridge - 11mm - works in the Mannlicher clip
this could be the one but we will never know when no rifle comes to surface

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Ash

I find another 11x59R cartridge that may be very much like the .445 Grasset Nitro



civilian SFM with a unknown non- magnetic jacketed bullet, same oal like 8x50R Lebel

a shorter brass bullet on a 11x59R with SFM civil headstamp

11x59R blackpowder lead bullet load, lead lost the paper patching in the storms of time



if you reduce rim thickness and diameter of the first round you have the thing. I measure a .439 bullet diameter on the case mouth what will help to reduce pressure in the .451-.454 gras brarrels.

---

But a .439 jacketed bullet down a .446-.451 barrel will shoot with horrid accuracy?
Do you suspect this to be the elusive .445 Nitro? I'm now certain it's like you said - 11mm Gras, smokeless load. Maybe they open the bolt to suit?
No idea on bullet weight/velocity.

Seriously debating on buying one and figuring it out and hunting with it.

---

That ctg. looks so much like the .43 Mauser, for the model 1871 Mauser. The first ones, including the 1871/76 had groove diameters of up to .457". The bullet was .446" and the ctg. case/chamber would not allow a bullet over .446" to be seated in it.
The original 77gr. Black Powder load would slug up the .439" soft lead bullet to give military accuracy of the day. However, when CIL and other makers started producing smokeless loads, still with the .446" bullet, accuracy was VERY disappointing - in the 1871's through 1871/76's.
The model 1884 Mauser, however(same basic action), had barrels with .446" groove diameters & those shot the new smokeless ammo fairly well.
So- if undersied bullets are used, they must be soft lea and be driven by black powder.

---

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: