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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets
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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff.
      #307010 - 30/10/17 12:26 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Here is a link from the Nosler forum, I hope it is of some interest.
https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=36536

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Rockdoc
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Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Homer]
      #307017 - 30/10/17 04:39 PM

They look great. Wouldn't mind trying some.

Not into casting yet. Will have to wait until I build a garage......

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Rockdoc]
      #307021 - 30/10/17 06:24 PM

Would love to see how they go on pigs, brumbies & scrub bulls too!
Reckon Mick would give them an acid test.
Good article
93x64mm

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Homer
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Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: 93x64mm]
      #307078 - 31/10/17 09:39 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks fella's, I would have no hesitation in using these bullets on Game animals but would stick with Woodleigh's, for Dangerous Game.

Have another look at the same link, as I have added a link on "How To" do this Poly coating.
This is one of the simplest and well worded/described You Tube video's, I have been able to find on this subject.

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Homer]
      #307110 - 01/11/17 04:28 AM

Dang Homer - thanks for that link & this thread.

I bought some powder a couple years ago, but have not as yet coated any bullets.

Appears dead simple - EASY! I'll have to cast some up now for coating.

I assume he is pre-heating the bullets to the same baking temp 180C, or so, as after his tumbling treatment.

I think this might be a good system for my 1876 Winchester Centennial.

I must get some loaded for that rifle and perhaps pack it next time I go for a drive.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Homer]
      #307113 - 01/11/17 04:39 AM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks fella's, I would have no hesitation in using these bullets on Game animals but would stick with Woodleigh's, for Dangerous Game.

Have another look at the same link, as I have added a link on "How To" do this Poly coating.
This is one of the simplest and well worded/described You Tube video's, I have been able to find on this subject.

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer



This reminds me of back in the day of moly coated bullets..any effects to the inside of the barrel from this?? cleaning issues?

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Ripp]
      #307117 - 01/11/17 08:21 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Daryl, I believe that pre-heating the bullets "for a 1 or 2 minutes, at 180*C" (as per this video), helps to get a good coverage of powder on the bullets.

FYI, I have the oven set at 200*C and bake the bullets for 10 minutes.

Ripp, I have reloaded and shot 10 thousand + rounds of commercially produced, Poly Coated bullets thru my 9mm pistols (@ 1130fps), without ANY issues. These poly coated bullets, have been commercially available here in Oz, since at least early this century (maybe even the 1990's?), see http://www.hrbc.com.au/ .
They are very clean to shoot, with no leading or other deposits and I basically no longer need to clean the pistols barrel (unlike cast lead and jacketed bullets).
So much so, I see Federal now manufacture commercial ammo, that uses a Poly coated bullet.

Further to this, so far and at approximately 1600 ish fps, the barrel on my .404 Jeff is spotless (apart from a small amount of unburnt powder granule husks), after using these Poly coated bullets.
From what I have been told and read, the velocity limit of poly coated bullets, is approximately 2000fps. This I'm sure, is barrel interior dependent but I hope to be able to confirm this, some time soon. I also intend to experiment with this process, by adding a dry lubricant to the Powder coating mix.

I have loaded up some more of the same (63 grn of AR-2209 (H4350) powder) loads, and I hope to get to the range tomorrow for Accuracy and Velocity testing. I'll report these details, on the same Nosler forum thread.

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Homer]
      #307122 - 01/11/17 10:10 AM

Tks Homer. Velocity would also be dependent on pressure. The lower the pressure and higher the Brinel, the higher the allowable speed would be, just as it was/is with cast and LBT Blue Lube.

I have driven cast to 2,650fps in my .375H&H, 275gr. cast G/C bullet, without leading and 1 1/2" accuracy @ 100yards.

This was a hardened WW bullet with LBT Blue lube - approx. Brinel 30. They shot amazingly well for the speed, which duplicated factory .375H&H jacketed ammo. I did not shoot any animals with them.

I suspect such a hard bullet powder coated would be quite similar, without the need to lube.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1124
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: DarylS]
      #307132 - 01/11/17 04:50 PM

Homer, what powder and charge are you using in your 1600 fps loads for your 404?
I load cast to much that same level in my 404 just for cheap easy shooting and use Vectan AS powder. This powder is equivalent to Red Dot in burn rate but is so incredibly clean burning leaving only a stain in the barrel rather than any soot or little bits of unburnt powder. I load 22.0 grains with a 360 - 400gr cast in the 404, the exact same powder and charge I have used for decades loading 32 gram shotshells.

Vectan advertise their AS powder as suitable for reduced rifle loads.

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Homer
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Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: eagle27]
      #307134 - 01/11/17 06:57 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Eagle27, Von Gruff very generously sent me some of his 340grn cast bullets a few years ago.
When I recently started down the Poly coated path, I looked up my reloading and chrono records, and with Von Gruff's recommended charge of 63 grns of ADI AR-2209 (H4350), (but with RWS Cases and Remington 9 1/2Magnum primers), I was getting 1600fps with this combo, from the 24" barrel.

I was also reminded from these records, that I was getting a very slight Hang Fire, when I used CCI 250 Magnum primers!
Thats why I changed to the Rem 9 1/2 M primers, and I have never had any issues with these.

Eagle27, I hope to get to the range for a shot tomorrow, and I'll be chronoing and accuracy shooting these same Poly coated loads. I'll report back on what was achieved.

What I want to do, some time soon, is cast up some "as soft as possible" 180grn-ish, .30cal bullets and then Poly coat them.
I'll then shoot these at Sub-Sonic velocities thru my Howa Mini rifle, in 7.62x39 for both accuracy, and then expansion, ......... on "Practice Terrorist" (aka "Skippy's").
What I'm trying to achieve here is, a dirt cheap cast bullet, that will readily expand at Sub-Sonic velocities but won't lead up a barrel (after multiple (20+) shots fired).
In theory, this should be achievable, it's just a matter of finding the correct Alloy mix, to fill out the mould cavities properly.

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1124
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Homer]
      #307140 - 01/11/17 07:37 PM

Homer, In addition to my own 400gr cast bullets I too used Von Gruff' 350gr cast bullets that he sent me. Still using some of his when I shoot the 404. I loaned my Hoch mould to VG when he was getting started with his 404 so he could have some cast on hand when his rifle was finished and ready to shoot.
I followed suit with the AR2209 load he developed for his 350gr cast bullets. He got about 1900fps out of his rifle while I got 1800fps with the same load. My Mauser 404 has quite a bit of freebore so I would expect my velocity to be less than VG's Mauser with his custom chamber. Your velocity seems quite low from that load

I too found that with the components I used that I got very slight delayed ignition, only just perceptible but there nevertheless. Solved that by using a wool wad seated on the powder. These wads are/were available for purchase from The Cast Bullet Kid, see link below. I also use his Beaver grease bullet lube. I could get clover leaf groups at 50m from this loading when I was on my game.

http://www.beavergrease.co.nz/TCBK.html

350 gr Hoch Cast GC
AR2209 powder
63.0 grains load
CCI 250 primer
RWS case
COL - 3.490"
Wool wad

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: eagle27]
      #307154 - 02/11/17 07:39 AM

Quote:

Homer, In addition to my own 400gr cast bullets I too used Von Gruff' 350gr cast bullets that he sent me. Still using some of his when I shoot the 404. I loaned my Hoch mould to VG when he was getting started with his 404 so he could have some cast on hand when his rifle was finished and ready to shoot.
I followed suit with the AR2209 load he developed for his 350gr cast bullets. He got about 1900fps out of his rifle while I got 1800fps with the same load. My Mauser 404 has quite a bit of freebore so I would expect my velocity to be less than VG's Mauser with his custom chamber. Your velocity seems quite low from that load

I too found that with the components I used that I got very slight delayed ignition, only just perceptible but there nevertheless. Solved that by using a wool wad seated on the powder. These wads are/were available for purchase from The Cast Bullet Kid, see link below. I also use his Beaver grease bullet lube. I could get clover leaf groups at 50m from this loading when I was on my game.

http://www.beavergrease.co.nz/TCBK.html

350 gr Hoch Cast GC
AR2209 powder
63.0 grains load
CCI 250 primer
RWS case
COL - 3.490"
Wool wad


Eagle 27 - VG's load (& projectiles) ran just over 1900fps in my rifle, but it has a 25" barrel.
I used Federal 215 primers & a soft foam wad to hold powder in place.
No issues with leading or any hangfires.
Accuracy was not bad in my rifle; however my 410gn CBE cast projectile with the same load gets 1700fps & better accuracy.
The real winner in my rifle is the 21gn Red Dot load using the 410 cast at 1350fps - it is magic!
All rifles are different, we start at what works for others & go from there!
Thanks fellas!

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VonGruff
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Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: 93x64mm]
      #307162 - 02/11/17 03:36 PM

My rifle did like the 63gn load and at 1900fps it would make for a good medium game load


I ran the same bullet (different alloy) at 2363fps and it would have made a decent heavy game load


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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DarylSModerator
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Posts: 26504
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Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: VonGruff]
      #307164 - 02/11/17 05:09 PM

Homer, I've cast a lot of grooved lubricated bullets with straight pure lead and got perfectly filled out bullets. I do find you have to run the heat a bit higher than when casting round balls with pure lead.

Even round balls of pure lead must be run considerably hotter than about any alloyed lead.

The addition of a bit of tin - say 40:1 lead:tin will still be quite soft and should expand OK at sub-sonic speeds. A flat nose with help.

You can go even softer, with just a tich of tin to help fill out the mould.

With powder coating there should be 0 leading up to about 1,400fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
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Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: DarylS]
      #307188 - 03/11/17 10:39 AM

G'Day Fella's,

I got to the range yesterday, and shot these same loads at 50 meters.
FYI, have a gander at the same Nosler link above, for all the gory details.

Eagle27, Thank You for your advice and experience with this cartridge.
I again only just got over 1600 fps with the same (63grns of AR-2209) load, and the 367grn Poly coated cast bullets?
The chamber in my .404 has a very short throat and I can easily get the bullet to engage the lands/rifling.
I have loaded some of these same cast bullets out, so as to engage the lands/rifling but this make no difference to velocity. Though, it does improve accuracy.
Thank You also, for the link to The Cast Bullet Kid, I'll have look shortly.

93x64, Thank You for your details, data and experiences with your .404.
I need to do a bit more experimenting with cast bullets, in my .404 (and my .375 H&H).

Von Gruff, a BIG Thank You to you, and I am eternally in debt to you, for your great advice, data, assistance and generosity on this matter.

Daryl, A BIG Thank You to you as well, as you always have lots of great advice, knowledge and physical experience with such matters.

Stay posted, as I hope to get some more loads together, and tested shortly.

Avagreatweekendeh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Powder Coated/Poly cast bullets in the .404 Jeff. [Re: Homer]
      #307206 - 04/11/17 04:27 AM

U2, Homer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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