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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Bowhunting + Bows, Spears & Knives

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Scott
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Loc: Florida, USA
back up pistol for bears
      #144894 - 01/11/09 02:58 AM

Does or has anyone carried a backup pistol (for bears) while bowhunting? I am looking at another trip to Wyoming next year and am considering bringing a back up. I do not have much experience with revolvers. Not sure about barrel length and caliber issues. Any advice would be appreciated.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Scott]
      #144898 - 01/11/09 04:40 AM

I carry two---one if I am in black bear country--model 60 S&W00-357 mag with 180gr solid cast --when in grizzly country I can a Titanium 44 Mag. S&W loaded with 300 gr solid cast cores...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Altamaha
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #144904 - 01/11/09 07:56 AM

44 Mag minimum! With real bullets, solid hard casts, like Ripp said. Mine is loaded with Keith style cast from wheel weight alloy with heat treat. No fast expanding jacketed bullets.

Figure out in advance where to shoot 'ol bruin, cause if he is coming at you, a head shot may not work, I would go for the spine. Up the nose if you are good. Practice shooting eggs at 50 feet, one handed, you may not have time enough for a two hander. I was charged by a big black when backpacking, lucky for me he turned at about 20 feet and ran off. From the moment I first saw him until he turned there was not enough time for me to pull the M629 out of the holster. Good thing it was not a Griz or a Brown! If I was in serious griz/brown country, the 629 would be in a quick access front holster.

Check state regs, some do not allow a firearm to be packed when bowhunting.


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Altamaha]
      #144905 - 01/11/09 08:20 AM

RIPP and Alta +1, except I've been in a fight with a small black bear {posted elsewhere} and my .44 wasn't particularly decisive. Yes, CNS shots for sure. Yes, that does not always happen...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Scott
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144938 - 02/11/09 02:33 AM

Thanks for the help. I was considering either the 44mag or 45 colt, any preferences? Also 2 inch or 4 inch barrel? I would think that 4 barrel would be a little better to shoot accurately.

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Altamaha
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Re: back up pistol for bears *DELETED* [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144945 - 02/11/09 04:02 AM

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poprivit
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Altamaha]
      #144949 - 02/11/09 05:24 AM

If you really need to stop something with claws and that bites, and if time limits precise shooting, go for a S&W 500 w/4" bbl. I've used mine a couple of times to stop animals with bad intentions, and, no, no handgun will drop an animal in its tracks, unless brain shot. However, a 500-gr. bullet will make them pause and give you time for a well-aimed second shot.

if more info needed, pm me.


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: poprivit]
      #144950 - 02/11/09 05:42 AM

Quote:

If you really need to stop something with claws and that bites, and if time limits precise shooting, go for a S&W 500 w/4" bbl. I've used mine a couple of times to stop animals with bad intentions, and, no, no handgun will drop an animal in its tracks, unless brain shot. However, a 500-gr. bullet will make them pause and give you time for a well-aimed second shot.

if more info needed, pm me.




Have actually been looking off and on at the S&W 5" in 460 --think that too would be an awesome all around round..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #144957 - 02/11/09 07:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If you really need to stop something with claws and that bites, and if time limits precise shooting, go for a S&W 500 w/4" bbl. I've used mine a couple of times to stop animals with bad intentions, and, no, no handgun will drop an animal in its tracks, unless brain shot. However, a 500-gr. bullet will make them pause and give you time for a well-aimed second shot.

if more info needed, pm me.




Have actually been looking off and on at the S&W 5" in 460 --think that too would be an awesome all around round..

Ripp




OK, please give us an assessment.

Can you handle the the recoil of the gun one-handed w/ both strong and weak hand? A friend of mine has a .500 and I've handled it but I haven't shot it so I don't really know. For me, a handgun has utility if I can shoot it reasonably well even with my weak hand. Otherwise I'd carry a light rifle.

Anyway, I'm curious about these guns. A bit heavy weight for the belt for me, but curious nonetheless. Granted, the cartridge can be loaded down, but if it is loaded down too much, a lighter, six-shot .44 like my S&W 29-9 Heritage would be preferable.

Your thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Homer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153665 - 14/02/10 06:52 PM

G'Day Fella's,

We aren't allowed to carry handguns in the field in Australia (yet) but a good mate of mine (Dave E) and I once had this discussion in the hut we were camped in, during a very wet hunting trip!

Dave was the one that came up with the idea but I find it very hard to argue against his choice and agreed with him!
His choice; The Glock Model 20, in 10mm Auto and one spare magazine!

What do you blokes think of this "Back-Up Gun" and Caliber, for any primary hunting tool?

HooRoo
From
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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lancaster
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #153669 - 14/02/10 07:31 PM

the 10mm auto with full house load is maybe the best compromise between weigth and fire power. the clock pistol speaks for itself.
I would vote for this!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Kalunga
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: lancaster]
      #153680 - 14/02/10 09:10 PM

I agree. If not a revolver in .44 Rem. Mag. then a pistol in 10mm Auto. I would use 200 grains cast bullets if they feed well. I think a Glock is about the only choice that will make no problems for a long time. Just MHO.

Kalunga


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Kalunga]
      #153698 - 15/02/10 12:38 AM

I put little faith in a handgun on big bear, or even on small ones if real trouble arises, as I had a bad experience myself with a .44. But the 10mm has always seemed a very good option for the autoloader fan. The best there is IMO. Caveat being the use of cast bullets. Glocks are reported to have problems with cast bullets. Maybe a member can elaborate. I do not own a Glock.

There are days when I have mulled over selling a few handguns and getting one myself, but bear here do not typically cause trouble unless and occaisionally when hunting them and then the rifle is preferred. My other handguns do very well for my purposes, the .357 SIG being a favorite of mine. No bear taken, but it works very well on 70 to 200 lb butcher sheep, coyotes and dogs and would suffice for a closeup wolf in the event...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153715 - 15/02/10 03:02 AM

Once shot a black bear with my .45 Auto - 'double tap' to the noggin at 10' did the job well, using 230FMJ's - yes, I live in an area that forbids hunting with handguns. I was working at the time, so the 'shooting' was completely legal. Actually, I shot 7 that fall while working, using a variety for different guns, mostly rifles, of course.

The best "hand-held" gun I found for bears, was a 12 bore with a .710" round ball driven at 1,550fps. Bang/whock/down. Since those balistics were good enough for a 12 bore (7 dram BP load) in Africa, it's good enough for an 'easy-to-kill' black bear. I'd also use it for grizzly before attempting to stop one with a handgun, any handgun. No handgun made today or small-bore (under .45) rifle has as much 'impact' on game at close range. I'd have to compare it to at least a .450 magnum rifle with rapid expanding bullets. As to penetration, with hardened balls, "through and through an elephant's head" is good enough for me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #153718 - 15/02/10 03:17 AM

Quote:

Once shot a black bear with my .45 Auto - 'double tap' to the noggin at 10' did the job well, using 230FMJ's -




Your good shooting saved you a heap of trouble.

My stock shooting experience on skittish meat sheep with .45 ACP, .38 Special, 9x19, 7.62x25, .357 SIG using FMJ's indicates little reaction to body shots and lots of time for running and such after the shot regardless of caliber.

Most recently we did some more with FMJ's and 7.62x25 and 9x19, and both calibers showed almost identical {and expected} results to .45 ACP; in one 125 lb sheep, over 6 minutes of normal activity {running around} before it could be caught up with and head shot, another 3 minutes, ditto. These were side shots right behind the shoulder.

One shot with 7.62x25 and Wolf 86 grain Hollow Point jogged about 20 feet and dropped at 8 seconds, dead.

All shots, FMJ and HP exited. This is the difference between these faster rounds and the .45 ACP, where that round has commonly stayed inside the animal even on 125 lb sheep, using FMJ's.

My experience over the years indicates essentially no difference between any of the abovementioned calibers when FMJ's are used.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #153720 - 15/02/10 03:28 AM

Quote:

We aren't allowed to carry handguns in the field in Australia (yet) ...




A licence can be obtain, I believe, by Outfitters in the NT as a backup, but nowhere else.

Quote:

As to penetration, with hardened balls, "through and through an elephant's head" is good enough for me.




African Hunter mag / Don Heath ? did a study and found the .357 the best for penetration.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Grenadier
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153737 - 15/02/10 05:10 AM

Quote:


My experience over the years indicates essentially no difference between any of the above mentioned calibers when FMJ's are used.




That's why the 9mm is getting so many bad reports from Iraq. If you use FMJ ammo then you tend to get over-penetration with the smaller calibers. The .45 is working out better for them because it makes a slightly larger hole and it tends to expend all of its energy within the target, i.e. it goes in but doesn't come out.

Using a good hollow point bullet changes things dramatically. Something like a Winchester Ranger T Series SXT has a lot of stopping ability and I wouldn't hesitate to carry it in my .45acp for protection anywhere I normally travel from municipalities to mountainsides. Sometimes I carry my 1911 and sometimes I carry my S&W 1955 revolver.

However, I don't normally travel to big bear country and I believe there are much bigger and better choices than .45acp for use against large bears. When you get to these larger calibers you're choices are pretty much limited to a revolver, the rare auto-mag types excepted. Revolver shooting is very different than any other kind of shooting and, within revolvers, single action and double action shooting are differentiated even further.

Most people agree that the big stoppers begin with .44 Mag and go up from there. I've never shot anything larger than a deer with a pistol but that sounds reasonable to me. However, I wouldn't want to carry something so big and so heavy that it makes it difficult to quickly draw and use. The big S&W canons, the Linebaughs, and the guns chambered in .45-70 and .444 are so big that I wouldn't carry one as a secondary weapon. A 15" long, 4.5 pound revolver may be fine as a primary weapon but a secondary weapon should be out of the way till needed and then quick to deploy. I have read several reports of big bears mauling a victim who didn't have time to use his weapon in defense.

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Grenadier]
      #153749 - 15/02/10 06:57 AM

Everything I'm about to say involves FMJ's. HP's are completely different and perform radically differently.

I do not believe that the .45 ACP does perform noticeably better when FMJRN's are used. Yes, I've read the material for years. Material that at best infers but rarely demonstrates true comparative performance of both on game or else. Yes, the Marshall/Sanow stuff shows 9x19 and .45 w/ FMJ's as 60% and 69%, respectively, for one-shot stops. I'll buy that. That 9% is, I'll submit, impossible to see in real life, and service pistol use with Beretta vs the 1911 means the Beretta gets a fellow twice the shots before reloading. And the 9x19 might get thru a door or a gunstock or a sandbag that would stop the .45.

But reading is fine. I've also used both on living critters for years, too.

There are ballistic advantages to both 9x19 and .45 ACP. Both are basically poor stoppers with FMJRN's. At least both have performed essentially identically for me in butcher stock and dogs over the years, with many dozens of butcher sheep shot. I have shot many sheep that took no notice of a hit with a .45 ACP till they died some time later. Ditto the others. All service pistol rounds are lethal, none with FMJ's are lightning bolts on non-CNS hits. I believe because I've seen that the .45 will break bones and stop, bones that the 9x19 will hole and go on and punch a hole in something else. For what that's worth. For marginal shots they both suck.

I was a complete Big Bore handgun aficionado and a Believer in the .45 ACP until years of using it on butcher critters demonstrated its generally poor performance. And that experience had a lot of bias to overturn because I hated the 9x19 before I owned one.

I will say that I shot my 1911 better than almost any other pistol I've ever owned, and that has to count for something, but the performance on stock was so poor I little by little gravitated to other pistols and finally just plain got rid of it. I haven't owned a .45 in years.

9x19 better? No, all service pistols with FMJ's suck for stopping. But it is as lethal. And for lethal, let's not forget that the most lethal ground force ever fielded, the German Army 1914-1918, 1939-1945 soldiered on w/ the 9x19, with no move ever to adopt a heavier caliber. The 9x19 does penetrate a bit better than the .45, tho, in some media. But both are light years LESS effective than even a light rifle caliber like the 7.62x39 or even .223 or 5.45x39 up close, and all those with FMJ's.

John, penetration of handgun bullets depends on the bullet so whoever did the test you report may indeed have found that the .357 penetrated deepest, that is, with those bullets. But that isn't to say it always will. Especially against a real sixgun round like the .44 Mag or heavy-loaded .45 Colt. The Smith .500 and the like, I personally don't consider handgun rounds, at least for me, as I want to be able to hit with my handgun using my weak hand, one-handed. I really cannot do that with the novelty rounds like the .500, .480 Ruger, etc. For the big armed guy that can carry one of those things, all the power to him.

The 9x19 does seem to "bite" bone a bit better than the .45, probably due to its higher velocity. Along those lines, I had a 230 grain FMJRN's skid off a sheep's head square on, that critter taking two more broadside as it ran by me with the flock. It disappeared into the midst, then I set off chasing it to keep it out of the gully, finally getting behind it where I shot it again behind the head, dropping it.

On another occaision I shot a stock-chasing dog with the .357 SIG, 140 S&B FMJ's, the dog taking seven fast shots as it ran away from me, my son counting the exited shots as they kicked up dust on the ground under the critter before it dropped.

And another mean dog took a cylinder full of .45 Colts, the bullet being the 260 grain cast Lyman semi-pointed old Army bullet {similar to that used at Little Big Horn}. Dog dropped after shot 5 and still took #6.

And another ram that took a .45 as it jogged by me, the bullet being the 230 grain FMJRN, the ram being unconcerned, sticking with his buddies till I got it pinned against a fence, then it ran again and after some more mayhem I got one into its head.

And the other day, the one wether took the body shot and after 3 minutes I shot it twice in the head with the 9x19 {thru and thru skull, no brain}, then it shook them off and ran by me with one other and I was able to get behind it and get one behind the head for a stop.

And a little 40 lb goat that took a 200 grain .38 side thru and then walked away as if nothing more than a cloud passed over, found a nice comfy spot under a fir tree and chewed its cud till it put its head down 2 and a half minutes later and went to sleep for good.

List goes on.

The only thing FMJ's and hard lead RN's have going for them is that they don't wreck meat.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Tatume
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153751 - 15/02/10 07:17 AM

I've already mentioned this, but summer before last I shot a groundhog square in the front of the chest with a 158 gr 357 magnum at about 50 yards. When I got to him, which took about a minute, he still had plenty of fight left in him, and took another shot to the head. My faith that the 357 magnum would stop a fight took a big hit that day.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Tatume]
      #153757 - 15/02/10 07:44 AM

Yup, I had a similar experience with my 1911 and a rockchuck.

I really grind my teeth when I read about some poor cop who gets trashed in the press over shooting a bank robber "12 TIMES!!! or some such.

I always think...

If a sheep will just flick its ear and keep eating when it takes a .45 thru the boiler room, I reckon a mean meth head will keep trying to make a widow out of the LEO's Misses uless the gun keeps going bang.

All cops should shoot some critters with their service pistol before hitting the streets. Faith in the handgun will then be appropriate to its performance, which ain't impressive.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Grenadier
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153758 - 15/02/10 08:01 AM

We are in agreement. I always carry high quality hollow points in my handguns.

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Grenadier]
      #153766 - 15/02/10 09:10 AM

Scroll down to Post #8 for pix.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?154990-Russian-Video-testing-helmets-with-a-TT-33

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153769 - 15/02/10 10:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If you really need to stop something with claws and that bites, and if time limits precise shooting, go for a S&W 500 w/4" bbl. I've used mine a couple of times to stop animals with bad intentions, and, no, no handgun will drop an animal in its tracks, unless brain shot. However, a 500-gr. bullet will make them pause and give you time for a well-aimed second shot.

if more info needed, pm me.




Have actually been looking off and on at the S&W 5" in 460 --think that too would be an awesome all around round..

Ripp




OK, please give us an assessment.

Can you handle the the recoil of the gun one-handed w/ both strong and weak hand? A friend of mine has a .500 and I've handled it but I haven't shot it so I don't really know. For me, a handgun has utility if I can shoot it reasonably well even with my weak hand. Otherwise I'd carry a light rifle.

Anyway, I'm curious about these guns. A bit heavy weight for the belt for me, but curious nonetheless. Granted, the cartridge can be loaded down, but if it is loaded down too much, a lighter, six-shot .44 like my S&W 29-9 Heritage would be preferable.

Your thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.




9.3

Sorry, I missed this when your posted it the first time...busy crazy life ..

As to the .460, the kick is substantial---in a tight spot however, I can fire one off with one hand..but would not want to do it all day--if a person was on the ground with a griz on top of them I feel fairly certain one could put one in the mellon should they be given the chance---the hightened adrenaline rush would certainly help..

Agree with you, many might be much better off with a rifle..have gone out shooting with a lot of people who find a .40 S&W auto a lot of recoil let along a .44 Mag.
One thing I do like about the .460 is its versatility in being able to shoot several different loads you can just pick off the shelf should you need to...like a colt .45 ..

Agree, they are very heavy compared to the standard.44 mag..and really heavy compared to my S&W Titanium .44 mag...Another advantage I do find good about a handgun when you are in griz country is it will always be close and handy if you need it versus a rifle or shotgun you may let lay by the fire while you go down to the stream for water or while you may be gutting out an animal..

That very thing happened this season to a group of elk hunters in the Gallatin Range..the two "novice" hunters put their rifles by a tree and proceeded to gut out an elk they had just taken..while in the middle of the process, they were interupted by a griz who heard the shot and come to dinner..the bear was now between the elk and their guns..they backed up and left --headed for their vehicles down the trail and come back the next day with a game warden and more guns..or so the story goes..

Like others have said, the best gun is the one you have available at the time you need one...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #153778 - 15/02/10 11:44 AM

Forget about gambling whether a body shot with a handgun will even impress a bear. A dead hunter had once been found next to a dead bear with 4 rounds from a .416 in him. Bear had still enough life in him to kill the hunter. With a handgun, especially, only a headshot is a sure thing - get something that is light (otherwise you'll leave it at home) and gets that job done without excessive recoil:

A 10mm AUTO ! best handgun caliber ever ...

A Glock is not the only option for 10mm, by the way. Mine is an SVI Infinity. If you are not familiar with these guns, check out this website and browse a bit, those guns are very, very cool:

http://www.sviguns.com/

http://www.svi-flass.de/

That's the model I got in 10 mm AUTO:

http://www.svi-flass.de/black%20beauty.jpg

Edited by 404bearslayer (16/02/10 02:02 AM)


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Homer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153817 - 15/02/10 08:33 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Just responding to other forum users comments on the usefulness of a hand gun for personal protection against Man or Beast.

I was once sent an email that discussed how a female journalist said the following, to a Police Officer at a local town meeting;
"Gee Officer, I see your wearing your .45 Pistol, are you expecting trouble"?
To which the Officer replied;
"No Ma'am, if I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought a rifle"!

Well, I found it funny and of course quite pertinent!

By the way, I just purchased two new/second hand Winchester 1892 rifles in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt.
They are 1 of 500 series made by Winchester for Davidson's(?) and have 20" octagonal barrels and matching serial numbers, apart from one has "A" on the end and the other has "B" on the end of it's serial number.
These may become my Back Up Guns?

Hey Fella's, do these qualify as "Big Bore" rifles on this forum???

HooRoo
From
Hommer


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Tatume
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153823 - 15/02/10 10:10 PM

Quote:

A 10mm AUTO ! best handgun caliber ever ...

A Glock is not the only option for 10mm, by the way. Mine is an SVI Infinity. If you are not familiar with these guns, check out this website and browse a bit, those guns are very, very cool




http://www.gunsamerica.com/919203371/Gun...lite_SS_NIB.htm

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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Grenadier
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #153845 - 16/02/10 03:18 AM

Quote:


"No Ma'am, if I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought a rifle"!





Sound advice but having a pistol as backup is just as sound. There have been many bear attacks where the victim had a rifle but the bear was too fast and/or too close to use it. A pistol on the hip gives you another chance. Best answer, carry both.

Bear breaks rifle

He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger.

saw the grizzly for just a fraction of a second before it was on him - revolver saves him



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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Grenadier]
      #153855 - 16/02/10 05:42 AM

I have shot a fairly decent brown bear last year (8.5 feet), and can tell you that you should never rely on body shots to stop a bear, forget the 'light rifle', shoot at the head with a semi-auto in 10mm AUTO, you simply have more ammo and speed to make up for misses. I my case, I pumped 4 shots from my .404 Jeffrey into the bear's chest cavity at distances from 10 to 60 yards. Those were very stiff handloads, by the way, similar to full-house .416 Rigby loads. Less effective then I had expected ... :

First hit made him rise to his full 8.5 ft, with a big roar ... then he came at me. Only the second shot at 10 yards distance made him run away, as he clearly did not like what he was being served. I hit him a third and forth time at about 60 yards when he tried to pass my position sideways. At the position of the forth shot, I later found his lungs all over the place - still didn't impress him, he kept running for another 70 yards until he dropped (and was still not dead!!). The bear had softball size exit holes from my African caliber, and all 4 shots hit the chest cavity, yet it was a close call. There are bears that will fall fast, but on occasion, they can prove very tough. I own a .470 NE now, and spend most practice time with off-hand head-shots at 50 yards .

Hence, as a backup, the handgun for the headshot is the only option, whereby I would actually prefer pepper spray: Some game department has done stats on the effectiveness of guns versus pepper spray in stopping charges: The pepper spray won by 75 % versus 30 % for the guns (in turning a charge).


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153861 - 16/02/10 06:16 AM

Quote:


Hence, as a backup, the handgun for the headshot is the only option, whereby I would actually prefer pepper spray: Some game department has done stats on the effectiveness of guns versus pepper spray in stopping charges: The pepper spray won by 75 % versus 30 % for the guns (in turning a charge).




______
.

I don't agree with the above.

Living in Griz country for the past 20 plus year and having had numerous encounters with either species (griz or black) when either with friends or myself, I will take my chances with my .44 mag and 300 gr Cast bullets over pepper spray.

Where I live, it is more often than not there is a pretty good breeze blowing. What happens when you are being charged on the downwind side of the charge? Have a really good client that had that happen to him about 3 years ago while walking his dogs..black bear come at him, he hit the spray which he himself took in the face..he dropped to the ground unable to see or breath..said the bear blew right by him and kept going...

I also don't buy the study put forth as legit..have seen that study as well. One concern I have with the game departments suggesting pepper spray is that their views are often tainted heavily by their political views versus actual performance in the field. Have been to numerous meetings by the local Fish and Game dept where they propose the same thing---overwhelmingly, at the meetings I have gone too, the vast majority of locals stick with a gun.

Bears are an animal that die just like any other living organism. You hit them correctly on the onset and they typically die quickly, period. I have two friends that have shot, between the two of them, 5 brown bears and or grizzlies..all shot with a 7 MM Rem. Mag..most with one shot..

I shot one several years ago, fairly large as well, squared slightly over 9ft..one shot dropped him with the .375 second shot as he got back up heading to cover--we went in the next morning and found him dead..

Not stating any of this to start an argument or whatever...but....

There used to be an old joke around here..about tourists who hiked using pepper spray and bear bells...all the bear spray did was season the human to make him more palatable to the bear..and the bells made it easier to identify it was a human in the bear scat..

Ripp


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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #153863 - 16/02/10 06:54 AM


Ripp:

Liked the joke about the tourists:). That the study might have been 'worked' a bit towards 'political correctness' (... use spray, not guns) occurred to me as well, as the percentage difference in favor of spray appears a bit high for me. I also know about the breeze issue. However, a lot of people out there are not exactly good shots, even less so with a handgun. Those, I believe, would be better off with the spray, even if theyhit themselves with it .

As to bears going down quickly, some do, some don't. There are reports of bears taking 13 shots from .375 and then disappearing in the woods, to ones that go down with one shot from a .308. Seems to depend on the bear. As for the effectivness of the 7 MM REM: My guide (who used this, and also told me beforehand that this would be plenty) took a shot at my downed bear (as I was out of ammo) with his 7mm Rem at the bear's shoulder from about 15 feet with a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Well, perfect mushroom, 100 % weight retention, just didn't penetrate the shoulder, broke no bone, simply got stuck in the shoulder. His face showed quite a bit of disbelief - I was next to him when the bullet was cut out of the shoulder during the caping of the bear ... . They are not all alike. I should add that this was the biggest bear that was shot in the northern Carpatian mountains in the last 28 years, - the 8.5 ft length does not tell the whole story, as he was built extremely stout: He was just shy of 1000 pounds, very strong, with very little fat, all muscle - after caping you could see that - legs like tree trunks.

Edited by 404bearslayer (16/02/10 07:11 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153871 - 16/02/10 08:49 AM

Pepper spray for a big bear ???? I thought you were kidding but apparently not !! Jesus, I'd feel a whole lot safer with a .44 mag in whatever model. If I can spray his face I can stick the barrel in his face. Pepper spray !! that really is a close encounter of the worst kind, best, Mike

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #153883 - 16/02/10 01:37 PM

Bear are really amazingly stout, even the small ridge runners like I've shot. I've killed 9 and maybe they all piled up on the scale would balance one big whopper from Alaska. Maybe my side would slant down a bit more.

Seriously, the pepper spray thing as RIPP says is PC Bravo Sierra all the way, and I am not tossing rocks at pepper spray. It is nasty stuff.

But there is no way I'd trust my condition to spray. Both? Sure!

Truth is, a .44 Mag failed me, and still I'd rather it over the spray, tho both wouldn't be overkill IMO.

The 10mm is fine, but the .44 is a much better caliber.

As for hitting a bear in the head with a handgun during a fight, good luck.

The violence and speed of a bear attack is not going to provide the ideal scenario to stick one in the mellon. Having been there in that regard, I know it. But a good Keith-type bullet driven hard should disrupt tissue and drive deep enough to hit CNS if it is in the way.

Which it might not be, in which case you are a statistical curiousity.

I had the hounds and my 14 year old son to back me up on a fast, furious fight with a small bear.

Pistols suck.

Rifles rule for bear, and good shooting isn't icing, it's what kills and keeps rounds expended to a minimum.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Paul
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #153897 - 16/02/10 10:03 PM

No Hommer, we're definitely out of our depths here, but I reckon the 92 is a great little rifle. Where would Hollywood be without it giving the cowboys a sexy substitute for the big ol' Henry, 66 and 73 that really covered the wild west? This reminds me: it tickled me, when reading 'Lonesome Dove', that McMurtry thought the Henry was a powerful rifle.

Getting back to the subject, have I mentioned on this thread the Ruger .41 mag revolver I borrowed as back-up in Wyoming in 1986? It was good and heavy with a 7.5-inch barrel and tended to drag my trousers down a bit. A single action, of course, so I could have been in extra trouble had a bear bitten off my thumb.

- Paul


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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Paul]
      #153906 - 17/02/10 01:10 AM

Mike,

yes - I was serious about the pepper spray . Of course it would be optimal to have a big-caliber rifle at hand, with a man behind it like you, experienced in shooting moving game. However, this is a bowhunter's thread, with a question from an American.

First of all, bowhunters already carry a lot of equipment, maybe even a folded tree-stand. If they settle on a rifle or big revolver, there will come the day where they will leave it at home because it bothers them and, mostly, they will not have had a bear encounter anyhow. So it has to be something light, like a pistol or a spray, that is ALWYAS on them. No use having a rifle or a .500 S&W if its in the backpack while cleaning moose, or back at home. It is a question of practicability. I usually leave my .454 Casull at home and take the 10mm, simply because the Casull is so big and heavy.

And for Americans - driven shoots are not done there, certainly have never heard of them and never seen one during the 20 years I have been hunting in Texas. That means most people there won't have the skills to shoot properly at an animal that's coming at them, which is quite likely to give them the shakes anyhow. Those might in deed be better off with a spray. No gun is of any use if you cannot hit running game. Just seeing what results some people here in Germany produce when they have to shoot at running game makes me very careful to recommend using a gun on a charging bear for everyone. If you consider that, practice it beforehand. Here in Europe, we have 'shooting cinemas' for that purpose, I know of none in the US. That would be one: http://www.schiesskino.de/ (You shoot with real ammo at moving game on a movie screen and your hits or misses are then shown on the screen by red dots, computer programs calculate proper lead for close or far away animals. VERY good training)

Edited by 404bearslayer (17/02/10 01:17 AM)


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500grains
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153908 - 17/02/10 01:47 AM

I like the S&W Titanium frame 44 magnum revolver. VERY light for carrying, and since you probably will not have to shoot it, recoil is a non-issue.

Or you could get one of those 8 pound S&W X-frame guns in .500 S&W which are a real pain in the butt to carry.


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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 500grains]
      #153913 - 17/02/10 02:14 AM



I've had one of those titanium revolvers in my hands once, had totally forgotten about them. These are in deed incredibly light - very cool also . That in .44 mag would really be a very good choice as back-up!


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 500grains]
      #153914 - 17/02/10 02:15 AM

"with a man behind it like you" !!!.........you are far too kind .404, I wish, I do know though that if I did have a bear looking at me in a nasty way if all I had was pepper spray I'd be climbing a tree and throwing my soiled undies at said bear best, Mike (sorry forgot it was a bowhunt thread, what do those titanium .44's cost ?

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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #153915 - 17/02/10 02:25 AM


Throwing soiled undies could possibly compete with pepper spray in turning a charge .


I found a .44 Titanium model in the following website. Base models seem to run around $ 1000.-

http://www.impactguns.com/store/022188634143.html


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153916 - 17/02/10 02:40 AM

RIPP is to modest. I will bet bucks he can hit with that thing, but be caure those who haven't tried one with heavy loads.

There is nothing wrong with those Titanium guns but I'd recommend you shoot one before buying. Nobody wants lighter gear than me, but I have chosen the steel framed gun because I like to shoot it, get confident in it and be able to hit well it it.

I have witnessed a fellow missing a trapped coyote at 4 feet with a .44 he was a bit hesitant to use, and I do not believe the bit about recoil not being felt under stress, especially if a fine shot must be taken at a moving or stationary animal. Sure, if the gun is pressed into the chest of an animal the kick isn't a bit deal unless the grip shifts significantly in the hand due to wet, sweat, etc.

A 4 inch Smith is not so heavy to be left home tho I don't carry a handgun much when carrying a rifle. By itself it is a burden of bulk, not just weight.

My own .44 is a Smith Heritage M29-9 with 6 1/2 inch barrel, a near duplicate of the 1926 Hand Ejector except in .44 Magnum. It is a fine sixgun, no heavier than a standard barrel 4" gun. I shoot ground squirrels with it in the summer, and can hit with it and have full confidence in that. Some fellows have reported hand damage/injury shooting the Titanium guns, just a point to consider. I myself developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hand from lots of .44 shooting.

Anyway, try the guns first. Strong handed, weak handed, too, not just two-handed.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153917 - 17/02/10 02:47 AM


9.3x57,

recoil from a .44 is rather mild, observe what a custom handgun in .600 Nitro Express will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsEojBGojI


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153918 - 17/02/10 03:22 AM

And then there is just pure silliness.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #153926 - 17/02/10 03:48 AM

Pepper.
Good God, no way.
I wouldn't use pepper on a feral dumbass human.


On handguns and 'the burden of carry', I've noted this before and I'll say it here again - I've carried (on a belt rig) my large X-Frame Smith and Wesson .50 through hundreds of miles of hound-chasing through this...



...Siskiyou County timber.

With the more slim/trim models like this one...



...carry would be even easier.


There's a lot of talk about just how unmanageable the .500 is or how heavy and impossible to carry they are -- and I stand here to say it's total bullshit.
If you can shoot, you can shoot a S&W500
If you're talking bear/nasty game, there's no good reason not to include the 500 in the conversation.
There are so many 'pussycat' loads for the 500 that are miles past the .44mag which are sweet to shoot, I strongly recommend giving the 500 a whirl.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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450_366
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153928 - 17/02/10 03:53 AM

Quote:


9.3x57,

recoil from a .44 is rather mild, observe what a custom handgun in .600 Nitro Express will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsEojBGojI




I like the way he holds it, he should have at least been able to predict some recoil when loading.

Heres how to handle a bear. web page

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by 450_366 (17/02/10 07:18 AM)


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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 450_366]
      #153945 - 17/02/10 07:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:


9.3x57,

recoil from a .44 is rather mild, observe what a custom handgun in .600 Nitro Express will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsEojBGojI




I like the way he holds it, he should have at least been able to predict some recoil when loading.

Heres how to handle a bear. web page





LOL, that clearly shows how to best stop a bear attack! Leave all guns and sprays at home... .


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153975 - 17/02/10 11:44 AM

Quote:

Heres how to handle a bear. web page





You just HAD to go and show that Canadian Salmon S
fishing video, didn't you. Now everyone knows how to do it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #154008 - 17/02/10 02:12 PM

Quote:

Mike,

And for Americans - driven shoots are not done there, certainly have never heard of them and never seen one during the 20 years I have been hunting in Texas. That means most people there won't have the skills to shoot properly at an animal that's coming at them, which is quite likely to give them the shakes anyhow. Those might in deed be better off with a spray.




You are going to think I am picking on you and I am NOT..

But I moved to Montana from N Dakota 20 plus years ago--prior to moving to Montana, in the first 30 years of my life on this planet, I had never shot a deer standing still..ever...in the midwest, a very common hunting practice, in fact it is probably used 90% of the time, is having part of the group walk a big tree area, or high grass field with posters startigically placed around the area..when the whitetail get up and start running out..typically the guys walking will hammer them or if they are missed, the posters get a whack at them on the way by...so that misconception by Europeans is considerably off target..pun intended..

As to practice--agree it is needed and should be done..that is where we would walk fields and shoot running rabbits with out .22 rimfires as kids...then as we got older and I got my first highpower..(.303 British)...we would put cardboard inside the tire and take turns rolling them off the hills with the shooter a 100 yards or more away and would shoot are the moving tire..this really seemed to work for us..IMHO..

I realize individuals in Texas typically don't do this..but that is/can be a product of the terrain..in the areas I have been, setting up posters would not have worked nearly as well as where I can from..plus Texans are typically lazy and just don't want to walk..KIDDING..its a joke..but couldn't resist..

To sum it up, no one will convince me that spray is the way too go..unless that person doesn't own a gun, I am not buying the spray idea..but, each to their own..if someone wants to use it my hat is off to them..plus, the way I see it, it will eventually lead to less competition in the field..


Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #154010 - 17/02/10 02:18 PM

Quote:


Throwing soiled undies could possibly compete with pepper spray in turning a charge .


I found a .44 Titanium model in the following website. Base models seem to run around $ 1000.-

http://www.impactguns.com/store/022188634143.html




That is the exact one I have --along with several other models--as for weight issues, really like it..

As too soiled undies, I trust there have been more than a few pair of them around after a near attack with a bear or any other similar threat...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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404bearslayer
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #154013 - 17/02/10 02:39 PM

Ripp:

Leave my good old Texans alone!

You are however right in that they like it convenient. Deer hunting in Texas means generally shooting them at an automatic feeder. It's timed, so that you go there just before it throws, then the deer come within 5 minutes and get shot. On top of it, the feeders are usually placed only 60 yards away from the stand, which does not make for very difficult shooting. Texas has its share of crack shots, of course, but many, especially older guys, have never done a different kind of hunting. Partly its also because of terrain: The Hill Country, as well as Southern Texas is very thick brushland, often you do not even have a clearing that's wider then 60 yards (apart from open pastures). It's of course different in beanfield country or out in the Rockies. I know Montana, by the way, almost ended up buying a ranch in the Bitterroot Valley.

Well, I bought one in Texas instead, about 15 years ago. First thing I did there was to move the feeders away from the blinds and to replace most of them with free-choice feeders where I did not allow anyone to hunt. Some of my friends, and especially my ranchhand (whom I allow hunting and fishing there) were not so pleased. They simply felt not comfortable shooting beyond 60 yards. Once my friends got into Pronghorn shooting, however, the game changed for them and they became long-range shooters (me, too - took some nice ones in the Texas Panhandle area).

Edited by 404bearslayer (17/02/10 02:49 PM)


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #154016 - 17/02/10 02:55 PM

Don't sell Pepper Spray short.

It is highly effective.

If confronted by a mean grizz, spray yourself in the face.

Bear have sensitive hearing and cannot stand the bloodcurdling screams you will emanate and will flee the scene posthaste, leaving you to recover in due time.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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450_366
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154036 - 17/02/10 06:46 PM

Quote:

Don't sell Pepper Spray short.

It is highly effective.

If confronted by a mean grizz, spray yourself in the face.

Bear have sensitive hearing and cannot stand the bloodcurdling screams you will emanate and will flee the scene posthaste, leaving you to recover in due time.




--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154063 - 18/02/10 01:05 AM

Quote:

Don't sell Pepper Spray short.

It is highly effective.

If confronted by a mean grizz, spray yourself in the face.

Bear have sensitive hearing and cannot stand the bloodcurdling screams you will emanate and will flee the scene posthaste, leaving you to recover in due time.




Hey, I tried a blast in my basement once with a can I bought for my wife who was about to leave for a trip with some of her friends..walked into it about a half hour later--nasty stuff..closed throat, watery eyes, coughing...again, only reinforcing the idea of how, all things has better be perfect for this stuff to work in the wild, IMHO...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #154064 - 18/02/10 01:09 AM

Quote:

Ripp:

Leave my good old Texans alone!

You are however right in that they like it convenient. Deer hunting in Texas means generally shooting them at an automatic feeder. It's timed, so that you go there just before it throws, then the deer come within 5 minutes and get shot. On top of it, the feeders are usually placed only 60 yards away from the stand, which does not make for very difficult shooting. Texas has its share of crack shots, of course, but many, especially older guys, have never done a different kind of hunting. Partly its also because of terrain: The Hill Country, as well as Southern Texas is very thick brushland, often you do not even have a clearing that's wider then 60 yards (apart from open pastures). It's of course different in beanfield country or out in the Rockies. I know Montana, by the way, almost ended up buying a ranch in the Bitterroot Valley.





I was in Texas over the holidays this past year..went out with my brother-in-law..helped him set up his feeders, hides, clear shooting lanes, etc...and yes, that is the impression I got..thought to myself after seeing how things are done there, no wonder people on web sites think someone is full of BS if this is all they have ever known..I am sure those that have only hunted that way, when hearing someone shooting a antelope at 250, 300 or more yards think the guy is nuts...each to their own, but I'll take Montana and the way most of the hunting is done up here over that style any day of the week..but again, whatever makes you happy...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Tatume
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #154155 - 18/02/10 11:16 PM

Quote:

Hey, I tried a blast in my basement once ...




As part of recurrent training of Coast Guard boarding personnel, each person must hold his eyelids open and receive a substantial blast of mil spec pepper spray. The person must then successfully defend his holstered handgun against attempts to forcefully take it away.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Paul]
      #154161 - 19/02/10 12:35 AM

As an aside, I think it bears {no pun intended} on the subject to mention that a handgun is one of the most useful tools a fellow can own for use in the woods and wilds.

I rarely carry one when I have a rifle, and I disagree with Tinker about the ease of use carrying the really big ones. I've never seen him but he sounds like a big sturdy fellow who doesn't mind them. I do. I'm in the woods every day and still I have never accustomed myself to really bulky equipment. Oftimes I have a belt with pliers or clippers for the plantation, etc, and a big gun is a loser for me. I don't like the extra bulk and a Smith N-Frame is about the largest I want to carry and to be truthful, the commonest pistol I carry is a Polish Tokarev, a very flat and light pistol that shoots a very useful field cartridge. Bear-equal? No, but big bear aren't a big problem here.

My son carries a Ruger Redhawk, a really super revolver, and about the absolute largest gun I want to ever have on my hip and then, frankly, not for long tho he goes everywhere with it. I think Tinker's point is well-taken tho, which is that some fellows DO like the really big ones and don't mind carrying them.

My suggestion is twofold for those without handgun experience; 1} if you are not a calloused handgun shooter {...even if you are...} the .500, etc recoil severely and it may be just plain "too much of a good thing". It is for many shooters. 2} framesize and weight matter on all-day hikes, and the Smith .500 is a bulky gun. Again, try one out before you dive in. We use our handguns for "targets of opportunity" all the time, and frankly, a .22 suffices for most of those targets so the big ones are not that desireable in a general sense, tho admittedly, facing a big mean bear, nothing that can be held with one hand is "big enough"!

I can basically say I never go anywhere without a gun, rifle or handgun mostly. The gun is a tool that except for actually hunting is rarely needed, but when it is, nothing else will suffice. It has to rank with the electric light bulb for Top Spot human inventions.

Those who are barred by law from carrying handguns have an excellent option, and Paul nailed it IMO. The Winchester 92's and short cartridge 94's are REALLY handy guns. For putdowns in a trap they can easily be used one-handed and are easy to carry. With a double sling you hardly know they are on your back. We have had a couple, the .30-30 in a 16.25 inch bbl and the .44 which we still own. What a great "handgun". And as for hitting, they are very easy to hit with, and offer a good number of rounds plus the ease of accurate shooting that most find elusive with a handgun. During lane-clearing years ago by one of the blinds, we had to remove some fir branches we could reach. The Win 94 in .44 did the trick nicely!

There are reasons the 92's and Marlin short action levers were so popular back in the day. Anybody who has carried a rifle on a horse knows it is a pain if it is a big heavy scoped thing or otherwise. The little guns ride so nice and smooth. And really, one of these days I'll pay Uncle the Tax Stamp and get what I've always wanted, a 10 or 12 inch Win 92 or 94 in .44 Magnum, common guns back in the day, and would-be so useful here on the ranch for a million chores.

If I do, there will be no good reason to own a "handgun"!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Paul
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154236 - 20/02/10 12:39 AM

For all that 9.3, I would have loved to carry a pistol around the farm as a kid, just to have a go at foxes and rabbits that sometimes popped up near the tractor. For years we could own cap-and-ball revolvers without a licence (before the pollies realised the pistols were mainly new ones, not just rusted antiques) but I had a young family and couldn't justify the marginal utility of one. My father would have taken a dim view, too. The only pistol remembered in our family was one my grandfather had in WWI. He lent it to someone going out on night patrol who didn't make it back in the morning. Dad said it had been a .32, so had evidently been Pappy's private possession.

You weren't supposed to fire those cap-and-ball pistols but people did, of course. Others got Colt AR7 survival rifles and 'lost' the barrel over the side of their boat, causing them to need a new one ...

- Paul

Edited by Paul (20/02/10 01:02 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Paul]
      #154240 - 20/02/10 01:31 AM

Quote:

For all that 9.3, I would have loved to carry a pistol around the farm as a kid, just to have a go at foxes and rabbits that sometimes popped up near the tractor.
- Paul




You reminded me very well of my years as a kid on the farm, was actually lucky enough once I was earning money to get a little .22 rimfire..carried it with me wherever I went--was a ton of fun and great to learn with..shot many many many cans, gophers, rabbits, etc...man, to live those days again..

On another note, had a visit with my good friend Mark this week who is not a retired game warden. He had spent the last 28 years riding in the back country all over the mountains in Montana...we discussed this topic..he stated in all his years, his weapon of choice was a 12 gauge..loaded with slugs..he stated was very very effective..and never had a need for anything else..so I guess as stated, long guns rule but if not available I would still be happy with a proper handgun..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Dphariss
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Scott]
      #154345 - 21/02/10 04:45 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the help. I was considering either the 44mag or 45 colt, any preferences? Also 2 inch or 4 inch barrel? I would think that 4 barrel would be a little better to shoot accurately.




5" 629 Classic.Short enough to carry but long enough to make decent velocity. A 2" 44 mag is a waste of time in my opinion.
The bigger calibers are more powerful but harder to shoot well and if you can't hit with it its no better than a hammer.
Use hard cast or one of the factory "cast core" type non-expending loads etc. Practice some DA shooting as well.

Dan


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Dphariss
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #154347 - 21/02/10 05:03 PM

Quote:


<snip>
There used to be an old joke around here..about tourists who hiked using pepper spray and bear bells...all the bear spray did was season the human to make him more palatable to the bear..and the bells made it easier to identify it was a human in the bear scat..

Ripp




Midway Store Slana, AK



Dan


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Dphariss]
      #154365 - 22/02/10 01:30 AM

Quote:

Practice some DA shooting as well.

Dan




+1

Weak hand, too.

That's my reasoning for avoiding the really big ones {.500, etc}.

I agree about the 2" bbl. I like the light tapered bbl on my 29-9. As light as a standard-weight 4", plus 2 1/2 inches of barrel.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154381 - 22/02/10 02:57 AM

I may be in the minority here, but my favorite carrying gun in the woods is a S&W 657 with a 6 1/2" barrel. It's chambered in the .41 Remington Mag; my favorite bigger bore caliber.

I've been firing factory Buffalo Bore ammo (230 grain keith style bullets at 1430 fps) and factory Cor-Bon ammo (250 grain Keith style bullets at 1325 fps). For fun shooting, I use the standard fare of 175 grain or 210 grain factory loads.

This handgun with open sights is very accurate and carry's well for me as it is well-balanced.

This is the same as the 629, but the 657 has thicker cyclinder walls which greatly contributes to its strength and tightness over the years with heavier loads.

For a general, all-around, utility carry gun, I still like my S&W model 15 Combat Masterpiece in .38 Special and 4" barrel.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (22/02/10 03:15 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #154391 - 22/02/10 03:26 AM

Dan's suggestion to practise DA shooting is not only a good one, but vital. Too many guys don't shoot DA, only SA with thier big guns.

It takes a lot of good practise and training to be an acurate double action revolver shot.

Of those who do shoot DA, many are prone to backing off the main spring for a lighter pull - DON'T do it - A failure to fire will result at the worse time possible.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #154407 - 22/02/10 06:47 AM

Quote:

I may be in the minority here, but my favorite carrying gun in the woods is a S&W 657 with a 6 1/2" barrel. It's chambered in the .41 Remington Mag; my favorite bigger bore caliber.




++++


Experience may suggest just because you are in the minority doesn't mean you are wrong or any less correct...

One of my very good friends has the same gun--and as you suggested, also very accurate and IMHO, a very under rated caliber---

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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WesF
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #160250 - 11/05/10 03:21 AM



I live in northwest Montana, so even if i'm just out hiking I take one of the two top guns. In the northern part of the valley I live in there are more grizzly bears, so I take the .44 mag. But when I go hunting in the southern part of the valley, there aren't many brown bears around but plenty of black bears. I carry the .357 mag in the south end because I have to hike further in to my hunting grounds. The little less weight is appreaciated if i'm dragging a muley or elk quarter out.

Some people say you need a .500 or a .460 I suppose in the situation of a charging bear, more gun is never a bad thing, but I've felt safe enough with the guns I carry. I've had two instances where I've walked up on bears at close range. Turn a corner in a trail and bam there the bear stands. So far I've never had to shoot. I've just backed off and gone back to the truck to find different hiking / hunting grounds.


A black bear I found waiting for me as I rounded a bend on an old logging trail. This was taken 2 years ago in early summer. The bear knew I was comming and was waiting to see what I was. Ears perked up and waiting to see if i was something tasty. I was scouting a new area for bow season. I happened to already have my camera on with the flash off. I managed to snap this picture from my waist as I backed up and drew my .357 Once out of sight, I walked back down to the truck, and said enough scouting for today.


Edited by WesF (11/05/10 03:25 AM)


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DUGABOY1
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: WesF]
      #184467 - 24/06/11 04:40 AM

[image]http://www.ruger.thegunsource.com/DisplayPic.aspx?PIC=66664[/image]

The Ruger Alaskan 454 Casul/45 long Colt is the best for this purpose because it was designed strictly for that purpose!

This pistol being short and double action along with full house 454 ammo it can be used even when under a big brown bear without haveing to cock it between shots or having a long barrel get in the way. A big grizz or brownie at charging range simply doesn't need more barrel than is absolutely necessary, but power it does need!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (24/06/11 04:53 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #184482 - 24/06/11 07:39 AM

Illegal to pack handguns here. If I'm in the bush other than during hunting season, I'm packing a 12 bore with 500gr. round balls loaded to 1,600fps - or a 9.3 + rifle. If I'm in the bush during hunting season, it's a 9.3 or .375.

With these, I've never felt undergunned, but overweighted at times.

I have a 4" M29 - always have, since 1973 - on my 3rd one - running 20gr. 296 and 300gr. Truncated cone commercial hard cast. Used sparingly, they cut each other at 25 yards. I might be out a gr. or 2 on the load - memory and all.

I just can't pack it legally except at the range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #184521 - 25/06/11 12:09 AM

Quote:

Illegal to pack handguns here. If I'm in the bush other than during hunting season, I'm packing a 12 bore with 500gr. round balls loaded to 1,600fps - or a 9.3 + rifle. If I'm in the bush during hunting season, it's a 9.3 or .375.

With these, I've never felt undergunned, but overweighted at times.

I have a 4" M29 - always have, since 1973 - on my 3rd one - running 20gr. 296 and 300gr. Truncated cone commercial hard cast. Used sparingly, they cut each other at 25 yards. I might be out a gr. or 2 on the load - memory and all.

I just can't pack it legally except at the range.





Reading this rather pisses me off...here you are, in the bush hunting and minding your own business and some liberal morons in a city somewhere have decided you cant carry a handgun..WOW...

sorry, but just have a hard time dealing with the idiots running goverments whether in Canada, the USA or pretty much anywhere else..they do a hell of a job, which is why the US is 14 TRILLION in debt....

guess I got off topic a bit..

anyway..as to the model 29--pretty much use a similar load--like the 300 gr hard cast for hiking in Griz country...

thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #184532 - 25/06/11 02:00 AM

Good note about black bears, WesF - as they are actually more dangerous than grizzlies - attack to attack.

Most times, a grizzly is only going to teach you a lesson, it seems - he knows he's superior and is going to give you a beating and perhaps 400 stiches is your reward for pissing him off. Rarely does a grizzly attack turn into a predetory attack, although it does happen.

A black bear, if attacking for the same reason - ie: encroaching on his or her territory, in protection of young, in defense of food, whatever, a Black Bear attack will virtually 98% of the time, tun into a predetory attack and you become a food item.

That is why WesF found that black bear waiting for him, just to check him out. If you don't scare him away, he might think he can handle you and if he makes that decision, he might slowly walk into concealment to one side or the other then move to intercept you. A lightening fast side attack is imminent in this case - it's the manner of the beast - come in from close concealment, low to the ground at 25mph and pull the prey down to the ground to his level - it's about over.

Ever walk along a trail and get the feeling you're being watched? Turn around and there's a black bear behind you on the trail. Keep watching and he might walk into the bush.
Start walking again and in a few minutes, there's another down in front of you on the trail - guess what, it's same bear. Scare him off, or pehaps he'll make a decision that might not be in your best interest. Always be prepared to scare a black bear away- make yourself as large as possible and noise helps. A rifle or handgun shot also works.

Grizzlies are just not that curious abotu people and if they hear or smell you, will usually clear off - they don't like people. Black bears at times, are not that wary of humans - see the second and third paragraphs.

This, in my opinon plus what I learned in a Government Employee Bear Awarness lesson. It is worth knowing by everyone.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #184538 - 25/06/11 02:43 AM

Darryl

GOOD info..and everything I have been told through the years as well ..and also in talking to biologists, outfitters, etc...

Personally, at least to this point, have had more questionable actions by black bears, but as you state, the griz usually take off..problem down here around Yellowstone park is that they(GRIZ) have not been hunted in a very long time and as such have lost much of their fear of humans..so dont clear off like they once did..we actually had a couple deaths in the park last year..first time in quite a while..and griz are everywhere...have a friend who actually had a sow with 3 cubs in his yard last week..said he hasnt seen one with 3 ever..and he's lived there 46 years...

anyway,,,he photographs them through the spring as a hobby..has seen 16 different ones just around his place..he knows this by markings, ear tag numbers, etc...granted it was their breeding season..but man that is a lot of bears...

thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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PHMadness
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #184551 - 25/06/11 06:43 AM

Not that I neeeeed one here in Utah, bears are the excuse I am giving wifey for buying the .460 S&W, it works so much better than "I want because".
Truth be told, having lived in so many places where I've been warned about the bears and I've never even seen one outside of Yellowstone NP and I don't figure those even count as a wild bear sighting. I just want a new hand cannon to play with.


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: PHMadness]
      #184554 - 25/06/11 07:32 AM

Quote:

Not that I neeeeed one here in Utah, bears are the excuse I am giving wifey for buying the .460 S&W, it works so much better than "I want because".
Truth be told, having lived in so many places where I've been warned about the bears and I've never even seen one outside of Yellowstone NP and I don't figure those even count as a wild bear sighting. I just want a new hand cannon to play with.




**

OH, I think THEY count..ask the relatives of those that were mauled and killed last spring...

I consider myself lucky any time I get to see one however, whether in YNP or anywhere else--pretty amazing animals...as will all wild animals, their strength is incredible..never forget watching a documentary once of a griz in the wild picking up an entire caribou with one arm and lifting it up over about a 3ft embankment..amazing..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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aromakr
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #196196 - 09/12/11 11:16 AM

I realize this is an old post, but thought I'd respond anyway. I carry a 4" 1911 45, only its converted to a 45 super. Loaded with Buffalo Bore 230 gr trunjcated cone that have a huge meplat which chrony's right at 1030fps, not only do I carry a 1911 daily but shoot one very regularly. And I feel very confident in my ability to hit what I shoot at, which I feel is a key factor. Most guy's that carry one of the huge handguns don't shoot them enough to be proficient with them. We don't have a lot of big bears where I live but do have some.
Bob


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: aromakr]
      #196198 - 09/12/11 12:24 PM

I shot a black bear one evening with the .45 ACP handgun I was packing on the job, at the jail where I worked - that evening, doing the prowl job. The black bear, a big male, maybe 300 to 350 pounds or so died insantly, a 260gr. Speer HP in the side of his head. I didn't want to lung shoot him and have him moan/howl - the inmates were sleeping (inside the building) within 40yards of my shot.

The handgun was my IPSC gun at the time, a 1911, 5" Wilson barrel, side-ported slide. The load worked wonderfully, but did not exit. 260gr. Speer driven by 11.2gr. WWpowder (Speer #9, I think) - velocity 960fps. I'd call it good for close in work.

I used the same bullet in my .45 Colt Trapper driven at 1,940fps - shot him in the face - frontal at about 5feet. The bullet turned his entire skull & contents into mush. He didn't know I was standing in front of him on the trail - going to walk right into me. Small bear about 175 pounds - good 3 year old.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Sarg
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #196206 - 09/12/11 04:28 PM

Umm Daryl , don't you think the shot would have woken them (the inmates) unless you had one of those nifty Tv silencers screwed on ? LoL

Thank you for the post & story , I was going to get a AMT long slide Hard Baller in 45 Super to use as back up , but it only would have been useful (?) on pigs & I wanted it for Bovines & Crocs (Hanging off my or custmers leg) so carryed a 44Mag S&W for a while , it had a crap holster , which made carrying it a pain !

Holsters are a big thing , often over looked .


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controlled_feed
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Sarg]
      #196227 - 09/12/11 10:12 PM

When I hunted in Alaska a few years ago, they told me the most important thing with a hand gun carried for bear protection was to file the front sight off.....................so it didn't hurt when the bear shoved the hand gun up your ar#e!

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Sarg]
      #196241 - 10/12/11 05:30 AM

Quote:

Umm Daryl , don't you think the shot would have woken them (the inmates) unless you had one of those nifty Tv silencers screwed on ? LoL

Thank you for the post & story , I was going to get a AMT long slide Hard Baller in 45 Super to use as back up , but it only would have been useful (?) on pigs & I wanted it for Bovines & Crocs (Hanging off my or custmers leg) so carryed a 44Mag S&W for a while , it had a crap holster , which made carrying it a pain !

Holsters are a big thing , often over looked .




I never fired more than one or two shots in an evening, whether on the bears or at the danged house cats that lived around there and scratched up the tanks and bags on our MC's.

A single shot would wake them up for sure, but they never complained that I heard of - with 2 shots or more shots & I'm sure they'd have raised a stink. Provincial jail - short timers, not Federal.

I packed my M29 but only ever shot the odd feline with it. Ended up shooting 8 bears there one fall - all with rifles except for the one with the .45 ACP.

The holster would be vitally important for a long time carry and whether walking or riding would also come into the equation.

My issue "bomber jacket" had inside pockets that held the short barreled revolver comfortably. Access wasn't too bad, nothing fast, but fast wasn't needed.

Big fat bullets do amazing things.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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FRJ
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #208072 - 05/05/12 02:40 PM

I hunt with a longbow and never carry a gun for backup of my bow. I do however carry a 1911 for possible human problems. Seems like there are more human problems every year and I'm far more afraid of them than I am of a bear. FRJ

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ruffcountry
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #208182 - 09/05/12 11:28 AM

I like my Glock mod. 20 in 10 mm . The 10 mm provides a very good balance of power , firepower and carry-ability . It is the right pistol for me and the places I hunt because I never leave it behind like I did my .357 blackhawk . I have not hunted where there are big bears but I do hunt where there are black bears , occasional jaguar , and plenty of desparate people . It is a comfort to me even when I have my rifle .

--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: ruffcountry]
      #208208 - 10/05/12 12:46 AM

FRJ- the 260gr. Speer HP FN, with Speer's load of 11.2gr. W630 powder delivered 960fps from my 1911 and shot into 2 1/2" at 50 yards. It is a capable bear round, both 2 and 4 legged, I'd expect.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #209459 - 30/05/12 02:41 AM

From two earlier links:

"Brush said he wears a pistol on his walks because bears have chased his dogs in the past.

He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger. He's not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

"Total luck shot," he said.

"It doesn't get any closer. He slid by me on his chin when I shot him," Brush said. "I was backpedaling as fast as I could. I wasn't even aiming. I tripped over my own feet as I pulled the trigger." "

Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html#storylink=cpy

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209460 - 30/05/12 02:42 AM

"Ruth grabbed for the .41-caliber magnum revolver he was carrying in a hip holster and relied on his training and experience as a police officer to save his life. He fired three times, saving three bullets in case his first shots failed.

But the bear dropped and didn't move, ending the furious encounter as swiftly as it started."

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/wyoming_man_recounts_grizzly_bear_attack/11986/
Wyoming Man Recounts Grizzly Bear Attack
www.flatheadbeacon.com

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Rule303
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209504 - 30/05/12 11:32 AM

Interesting and informative reading.

Never having faced a bear and not likely to. I would, however think that what ever handgun you carry as back up would need to function reliable with hardcast or similar blunt nosed rounds in all conditions.

I am a big believer in a massive flat metplate for slow heavy bullets-fast ones to- as I believe they stop animals quicker than pointed bullets. If it was me I would go with the bigest caliber I could shoot, recover, shoot, with one hand.

Just my lay opinion.


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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Rule303]
      #209575 - 30/05/12 10:25 PM

How about one of these?



Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun .44 Mag 4" Stainless

Model and calibre as used by Phil Shoemaker. That's got to say something.

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209581 - 30/05/12 11:56 PM

I like mine, but it is a standard 4" M29.

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #209582 - 31/05/12 12:06 AM

What is the difference, as I have no idea?

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209585 - 31/05/12 12:21 AM

The Mountain gun is stanless and has a lighter weight, thinner barrel. The frame is the same.

I actually perfer the handling and pointability of the heavier profile. A personal choice.

I've worn out 2 M29's since 1973. The first one was fed nothing but 22gr. 2400 and 250gr. Lyman Keith's and only lasted 3 years of quite heavy shooting - yearly average perhaps 2,000rounds after the initial spurt of 2,000rounds per month for 3 months learning to shoot it with accuracy to 300yards.

Heavy loads are/were used sparingly in the next two guns.

If a shotgun with GOOD slugs or round balls isn't available (first choice), then a handgun could work on bears, in the right hands.

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #209702 - 01/06/12 01:48 AM

Thanks.

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209797 - 02/06/12 12:40 AM

I've been a bowhunter for over 50+ years and although I do carry a 1911 45 super, I believe a hand gun in big bear country is an ego booster more than anything. In a close quarter attack most people would not have enough time to draw and shoot let alone hit anything, and I carry a 1911 daily and shoot all the time. Bears are quick and incounters usually happen in close quarters. I too think a large metplate has better stopping power than pointed bullets and carry a 230 gr flat point bullets loaded by "Buffalo Bore" that are fantastic, but sure hope I never have to use them on a big bear at any time.
Bob


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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: aromakr]
      #254361 - 30/09/14 10:56 PM

Quote:

I've been a bowhunter for over 50+ years and although I do carry a 1911 45 super, I believe a hand gun in big bear country is an ego booster more than anything. In a close quarter attack most people would not have enough time to draw and shoot let alone hit anything, and I carry a 1911 daily and shoot all the time. Bears are quick and incounters usually happen in close quarters. I too think a large metplate has better stopping power than pointed bullets and carry a 230 gr flat point bullets loaded by "Buffalo Bore" that are fantastic, but sure hope I never have to use them on a big bear at any time.
Bob




+1
Agree 100% with the above..have numerous friends who have had close encounters with griz..said at 50 yards..they didn't even have time to clear leather by the time he was on them...but still can be drawn in the scuffle and fired..or you can play dead..your choice..

I have been bluffed charged several times by blacks..the move really really fast..had a wounded black come at me once..shot by my step-son..he was NOT a happy camper..same thing..amazed how fast he covered ground..luckily I had a 280AI rifle in my hands to stop him..

Ripp

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254385 - 01/10/14 07:48 AM

12 bore loaded to about 1,600fps with 500gr. round balls cast of WW metal is my choice for bear protection. Each to his own as I cannot legally pack my M29 or 4 5/8's BlackHawk. If I could legally pack a handgun, either of those or would be on my hip whenever I was in the bush.

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254386 - 01/10/14 07:54 AM

I was involved in a fight with a small bear a few years ago as mentioned earlier. The bear ended up at my ankles. My .44 loads acted like FMJ's and went quite unnoticed by the bear other than the bear swatting at one that ranged its entire length, that is, until it died, living as it did plenty long enough it could have done real damage had the dogs not confused the issue for it. All shots lethal, none hitting CNS. It was a mess. As said earlier and as others have mentioned, a handgun is better than nothing but it is no guarantor of safety. With truly big bear, any common service caliber up to the .44 Mag is not going to instill much confidence for me, the service caliber none at all and .44 not much at all.

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #254408 - 01/10/14 05:13 PM

I've taken a total of one bear with a handgun, and that wasn't a hunting-type situation so I'm not sure if it counts. Mr. Bear caught 8 rounds of a cast-bullet .45acp handload equivalent to hardball. First bullet entered just below the sternum, the rest walked up the front. Several shots were through-and-through the sternum, one broke a shoulder, one went through the neck and ended up in the back of the skull. I considered it adequate as it took care of the bear, but after that trip I went to a 230 TC at about 1,000 fps (and never saw another bear while carrying the pistol).

That said, if I was going to carry a handgun while bowhunting, in case of bears, I'd probably choose a 4" Model 29.


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254424 - 01/10/14 10:36 PM

Quote:

FRJ- the 260gr. Speer HP FN, with Speer's load of 11.2gr. W630 powder delivered 960fps from my 1911 and shot into 2 1/2" at 50 yards. It is a capable bear round, both 2 and 4 legged, I'd expect.




Thx for that load Daryl..have to give it a try this winter after hunting season and have a bit more time for reloading.

Agree with your earlier comments as well regarding the shotgun and handgun bear protection..when I was going after Big Horn sheep along the border of YNP several years back, I was warned of a boar raising havoc in the area..chasing ranch hands on 4 wheelers, etc..SO, I packed my mossberg model 500 shorten barrel with buckshot and slugs..

Also agree with the comment of feeling a need for a handgun much more for the 2 legged vermin that the bears, especially in NP in other states..hiked for a week in Yosemite couple years ago..LOTS of strange folks hanging around that area..

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Jim_C]
      #254439 - 02/10/14 02:10 AM

Quote:

I've taken a total of one bear with a handgun, and that wasn't a hunting-type situation so I'm not sure if it counts. Mr. Bear caught 8 rounds of a cast-bullet .45acp handload equivalent to hardball. First bullet entered just below the sternum, the rest walked up the front. Several shots were through-and-through the sternum, one broke a shoulder, one went through the neck and ended up in the back of the skull. I considered it adequate as it took care of the bear, but after that trip I went to a 230 TC at about 1,000 fps (and never saw another bear while carrying the pistol).

That said, if I was going to carry a handgun while bowhunting, in case of bears, I'd probably choose a 4" Model 29.




This is very much like my experience.

After 2 hours of hard running thru the mountains, took my first shot at 40 yards was broadside thru the lungs. Critter dropped like Clinton's pants at a Mary Kay Convention. We were all relieved. Then a dog jumped on the bear and the bear blew up, grabbing the dog and rolled off the bank. I ran after it and shot it again as it ran from me about 15 yards. Shot hit its hip and we found that bullet under the hide on the off shoulder. Bear stopped, swatted the hip and spun around and came back at me. I fired again, hitting it a little too far back and a dog lunged into the bear's chest and tackled the bear. Down on the ground I ran up, shove the revolver into its chest and fired I thought twice. My son later told me he heard what sounded like a burst from our Stemple submachine gun. I stepped back then the bear came on to at my feet and I stooped down to put the last round into its head and ClickClickClick!!!.

Darn...

Reached fr some rounds from my belt when my then 14-year-old son dove over my shoulder and more or less "bayonetted" the thing with one round of 7x57R from his Baikal combo gun.

Later I tested the bullets and whatcha know they performed in my jugs exactly as the recovered bullet looked. No expansion. Inside the bear were holes but no significant indication of severe trauma as you would get with opening bullets. And this was a small bear.

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254440 - 02/10/14 02:13 AM

Buckshot is effective against black bears - small black bear at close range. Solid projectiles ONLY for grizzly and most larger black bears. One of my staff shot a black bear 4 times with buckshot at quite close range and that bear was REALLY ticked off. It took another member walking up alongside the bear and planing a load of 00 in the side of it's head to kill it. The body shots sort of stopped the bear, but he was far from dead. I do not trust buckshot - slugs or round balls.

Ed Huble here has some 12 bore wads that nicely hold 2, 58 cal. round balls. I am in the experimentation mode on those, but that "buck" shot will work - guaranteed. Should be able to get them moving 1,500fps with Longshot, Blue Dot or Steel powders.

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254451 - 02/10/14 05:09 AM

Quote:

Buckshot is effective against black bears - small black bear at close range. Solid projectiles ONLY for grizzly and most larger black bears. One of my staff shot a black bear 4 times with buckshot at quite close range and that bear was REALLY ticked off. It took another member walking up alongside the bear and planing a load of 00 in the side of it's head to kill it. The body shots sort of stopped the bear, but he was far from dead. I do not trust buckshot - slugs or round balls.

Ed Huble here has some 12 bore wads that nicely hold 2, 58 cal. round balls. I am in the experimentation mode on those, but that "buck" shot will work - guaranteed. Should be able to get them moving 1,500fps with Longshot, Blue Dot or Steel powders.




I wouldn't personally use buckshot for anything I wanted to stop unless it was going to be shot at such close range that a slug would be no disadvantage. As soon as the shot starts to spread so much it improves hitting, it loses alot of penetration. I've had a number of failures of buck on dogs and have no interest in the stuff overall.

12 bore roundball?

Different story.

Daryl, your double 58 reminds me of the African I hunted with in Katanga Shaba province who had a homemade front loader...bolt action, too, long before the Knight Modern Muzzle loaders!!! and he used 2 .44 cal pistol bullets borroed from my friend who owned a Ruger Old Army. They were not accurate in that contraption but I suppose he worried the local impala and monkey population some.

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #254457 - 02/10/14 06:17 AM

Have to say a lot of this surprises me a bit in that I read an article a couple years back about Alaska and at that time the most common weapon and caliber used on a unexpected bear attack was a .357 Magnum handgun..which also really surprised me. If I was lucky enough to be trouncing around the woods in AK, the 357 mag would not be my weapon of choice..

Ripp

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254474 - 02/10/14 12:47 PM

My statement might read: I do not trust buckshot, slugs or round balls. What I meant was I do not trust buckshot on bears, only use slugs or round balls.

Please note as well the solid round ball, especially if hardened or cast from hard lead, is much more effective on any game with tremendously improved penetration over any of the Foster (hollow based) Slugs.

My long time friend and hunting buddy here, could not keep .735" round balls (about 580gr.) inside a moose. He used them for many years in his 11 bore rifle, loading between 175gr. and 200gr. of powder. The balls were not hardened, but were cast from the old crimp-on wheel weights, which run about 12-13 brinel here.

I'd not feel especially well armed with only a .357 mag. as backup when in the bush. Even if one went WAY overboard from today's squib loads, to the original-style stuff with 158gr. running 1,500fps, I'd still prefer my .44 mag with 275gr. SWC (Ohaus mould) at 1,250fps or 300gr. TC's at 1,150fps. Even then, a 12 bore appropriately loaded, would be better - maybe not as conveniently carried, but a much better show stopper.

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254476 - 02/10/14 02:28 PM

You were clear Daryl. I might not have been. I agree with you about the buck and slug/round ball thing, especially the round balls. I'd think twice about smaller ga than 12 and wouldn't trust Foster style slugs as I have seen some really poor penetration with them in some media but I would think a 12 bore RB at max velocity from a light semiauto would make for an excellent bear protection gun. That it would work well for grouse and other birds and snowshoes and everything else a smoothbore is good for is a real plus, too.

What velocities have you obtained with RB's in 12 bore guns?

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #254506 - 03/10/14 02:01 AM

Still playing - have access to a roll crimping die (really need to buy my own) so I can put up some decent loads that will give some consistency.

Using AA Steel (and/or Longshot), I am quite sure of getting upwards of 1,800fps to 1,900fps with a .720" ball of around 550gr. weight in my Mossberg model 835 24" bl'd rifle. Blue dot should get upwards of 1,600fps.

Note that the round ball factory 7 dram (191gr.BP)12 bore load mentioned in WW Greener's book ran 1,584fps, ball weight given as 599gr.-perhaps a Very shot conical.- pg.689.

I have .662" (16 bore), .675"(<15 bore), 684"(<14 bore), .705" (<13 bore), .715"(>13 bore), .724"(<12 bore), .735"(>12 bore) and .740"(<11 bore) moulds.

My Mossy's groove depth is .724", so I'll use the .724" mold at around 550gr. in WW metal.

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Daryl


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dracb
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254536 - 03/10/14 09:06 PM

Ripp

Over a 45 year career much of which was spent in remote campsites located from Alaska to Mexico (and way beyond) I have seen a number of bears killed with a variety of handgun and rifle calibers.Back in the 1960's I was instructing at geology field courses based out of tent camps in Montana and camping solo in the Crazy mountains and the Beartooths doing research.I thought I needed a sidearm to defend from bears and other predators so I bought one of the then new Ruger 41 magnums which started my quest for the perfect bear gun.

When my children were young they were often in camp and I have encouraged my young geologists to bring their families to camp also. As a partial consequence of children and wives in camp we had little patience for a bear in or around the camp. Even though every effort was made to keep a clean camp and to burn garbage every day it was unfortunately not that unusual for a bear to start raiding the cook shack or storage tent. Back in the 60's there was one site near a park that was particularly bad for bears. The park rangers would trap problem bears and transport them out to the bush road that led to our camp for release. Even though their release site was 10 miles or so from the camp their problems commonly became ours. A bear in camp was typically chased out a couple of times and if it persisted in returning or refused to be chased out they were shot by who ever was in camp at the time with whatever they were carrying at the time. A 357 will indeed kill a big black bear as will a 41 magnum or 44 magnum or the 45 super I carried in latter years. As long as the bear is not agitated and adrenalized, pistol calibers seem to work moderately well given good shot placement. Experience suggests that if the bear does not go down with the first shot it will probably take several shots and the shooter will probably wind up hunting for it wishing he had something much larger and more effective in his hands. I can only remember two bears that offered to attack people in camp. One was a grizzly on a dead run that was dropped as if struck by lightening by a 44 magnum fired from a model 94. I was amazed while the shooter apparently thought it was no big deal. The other was a black that had just ripped the plywood side off of the food storage shed and objected to being chased out of camp. It was shot twice through the front of the chest with a 450/400 3 inch using vintage 400 grain Kynock soft points. No substantial bones were broken and it did not initially drop as if hit by lightening or anything else, teaching me that one can feel very small and foolish for tempting fate as one stands there with an empty rifle in one's hands.
More ammunition capacity is muuuuuuch better.

Before I started spending much time in bear country I had an opportunity to interview two people that had been mauled. Both told me that they would not have had time to defend themselves if they had a gun in their hands. In one case I was told the first time he knew a bear was there was when it bit him. The other related that he was walking up a creek in the early morning,stepped around a bend in the trail and was swatted by the bear. As I recall the bear after biting and cuffing him about buried him. It kept returning to check on him during the day. He was finally rescued by the helicopter pilot that was to pick him up at the end of the work day. It was partly on the basis of their comments that I started carrying the 45 super. I figured if I really had to use a pistol in extremis I would need that magic golden BB of legend to stop a mad bear. I was more likely to find that golden BB with a series of double taps from a pistol that I shot in IPSC competitions and that I could also shot well with my weak arm. It seems the hands and arms get a bit gnawed on while the bear is having his way with you.

The short summary is that a pistol is a distant and unreliable second choice to a powerful, rapid firing, multi-shot shoulder weapon for up close bear work. I kept a 450 31/4 inch or 450/400 3 DR for a camp gun for a while until finding two shots might not always be enough. Now I use a pump 12 bore with hardened round balls as bear medicine when given the choice. The trouble is it is hard to work carrying the damned thing and if it is on a sling over the shoulder it is slow to get into action. I few years back I bought some 870's from a mining company that was shutting down. They had issued them to their field personnel along with a scabbard that attached to their packs so they could draw it over their shoulder. The problem with the bigger and more powerful pistols than the 44 magnum is that they are heavy and after a short time one tends to find excuses to not carry it. The mountain pistol in 44mag or similar in 41mag is in my opinion a reasonable compromise. Unfortunately as a consequence or where I now live I no longer enjoy the privilege of carrying a sidearm in the jurisdictions where I work most of the time.


According to a Bear Smart course instructor I hired a couple of years ago the new bear sprays are reportedly more effective than handguns at stopping bear attacks.

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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: dracb]
      #254548 - 04/10/14 12:09 AM

Dracb

Thank you so much for the info..really enjoyed reading about your experiences...

All of what you have said is pretty much what I have read, heard or experienced..I have only shot about 6 or 7 bears. Out of those only one was a griz.. most have died really easy, BUT as you say, get them stirred up a bit and its a different story...

Fortunately I can still carry here and as such normally carry my titanium S&W in .44 Mag loaded with 300gr hard cast when in Griz country--in Black Bear carry one of my lighter 357 Mags loaded with 180gr Hard Cast Cores..they seem to be effective..

The Crazy's huh??
They are an awesome mountain area..have spent some time over there, not as much as others, but a really neat area...


Take care

Ripp

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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254561 - 04/10/14 01:53 AM

Thanks Dracb well written.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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