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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Bowhunting + Bows, Spears & Knives
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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154063 - 18/02/10 01:05 AM

Quote:

Don't sell Pepper Spray short.

It is highly effective.

If confronted by a mean grizz, spray yourself in the face.

Bear have sensitive hearing and cannot stand the bloodcurdling screams you will emanate and will flee the scene posthaste, leaving you to recover in due time.



Hey, I tried a blast in my basement once with a can I bought for my wife who was about to leave for a trip with some of her friends..walked into it about a half hour later--nasty stuff..closed throat, watery eyes, coughing...again, only reinforcing the idea of how, all things has better be perfect for this stuff to work in the wild, IMHO...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #154064 - 18/02/10 01:09 AM

Quote:

Ripp:

Leave my good old Texans alone!

You are however right in that they like it convenient. Deer hunting in Texas means generally shooting them at an automatic feeder. It's timed, so that you go there just before it throws, then the deer come within 5 minutes and get shot. On top of it, the feeders are usually placed only 60 yards away from the stand, which does not make for very difficult shooting. Texas has its share of crack shots, of course, but many, especially older guys, have never done a different kind of hunting. Partly its also because of terrain: The Hill Country, as well as Southern Texas is very thick brushland, often you do not even have a clearing that's wider then 60 yards (apart from open pastures). It's of course different in beanfield country or out in the Rockies. I know Montana, by the way, almost ended up buying a ranch in the Bitterroot Valley.




I was in Texas over the holidays this past year..went out with my brother-in-law..helped him set up his feeders, hides, clear shooting lanes, etc...and yes, that is the impression I got..thought to myself after seeing how things are done there, no wonder people on web sites think someone is full of BS if this is all they have ever known..I am sure those that have only hunted that way, when hearing someone shooting a antelope at 250, 300 or more yards think the guy is nuts...each to their own, but I'll take Montana and the way most of the hunting is done up here over that style any day of the week..but again, whatever makes you happy...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #154155 - 18/02/10 11:16 PM

Quote:

Hey, I tried a blast in my basement once ...



As part of recurrent training of Coast Guard boarding personnel, each person must hold his eyelids open and receive a substantial blast of mil spec pepper spray. The person must then successfully defend his holstered handgun against attempts to forcefully take it away.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Paul]
      #154161 - 19/02/10 12:35 AM

As an aside, I think it bears {no pun intended} on the subject to mention that a handgun is one of the most useful tools a fellow can own for use in the woods and wilds.

I rarely carry one when I have a rifle, and I disagree with Tinker about the ease of use carrying the really big ones. I've never seen him but he sounds like a big sturdy fellow who doesn't mind them. I do. I'm in the woods every day and still I have never accustomed myself to really bulky equipment. Oftimes I have a belt with pliers or clippers for the plantation, etc, and a big gun is a loser for me. I don't like the extra bulk and a Smith N-Frame is about the largest I want to carry and to be truthful, the commonest pistol I carry is a Polish Tokarev, a very flat and light pistol that shoots a very useful field cartridge. Bear-equal? No, but big bear aren't a big problem here.

My son carries a Ruger Redhawk, a really super revolver, and about the absolute largest gun I want to ever have on my hip and then, frankly, not for long tho he goes everywhere with it. I think Tinker's point is well-taken tho, which is that some fellows DO like the really big ones and don't mind carrying them.

My suggestion is twofold for those without handgun experience; 1} if you are not a calloused handgun shooter {...even if you are...} the .500, etc recoil severely and it may be just plain "too much of a good thing". It is for many shooters. 2} framesize and weight matter on all-day hikes, and the Smith .500 is a bulky gun. Again, try one out before you dive in. We use our handguns for "targets of opportunity" all the time, and frankly, a .22 suffices for most of those targets so the big ones are not that desireable in a general sense, tho admittedly, facing a big mean bear, nothing that can be held with one hand is "big enough"!

I can basically say I never go anywhere without a gun, rifle or handgun mostly. The gun is a tool that except for actually hunting is rarely needed, but when it is, nothing else will suffice. It has to rank with the electric light bulb for Top Spot human inventions.

Those who are barred by law from carrying handguns have an excellent option, and Paul nailed it IMO. The Winchester 92's and short cartridge 94's are REALLY handy guns. For putdowns in a trap they can easily be used one-handed and are easy to carry. With a double sling you hardly know they are on your back. We have had a couple, the .30-30 in a 16.25 inch bbl and the .44 which we still own. What a great "handgun". And as for hitting, they are very easy to hit with, and offer a good number of rounds plus the ease of accurate shooting that most find elusive with a handgun. During lane-clearing years ago by one of the blinds, we had to remove some fir branches we could reach. The Win 94 in .44 did the trick nicely!

There are reasons the 92's and Marlin short action levers were so popular back in the day. Anybody who has carried a rifle on a horse knows it is a pain if it is a big heavy scoped thing or otherwise. The little guns ride so nice and smooth. And really, one of these days I'll pay Uncle the Tax Stamp and get what I've always wanted, a 10 or 12 inch Win 92 or 94 in .44 Magnum, common guns back in the day, and would-be so useful here on the ranch for a million chores.

If I do, there will be no good reason to own a "handgun"!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Paul
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154236 - 20/02/10 12:39 AM

For all that 9.3, I would have loved to carry a pistol around the farm as a kid, just to have a go at foxes and rabbits that sometimes popped up near the tractor. For years we could own cap-and-ball revolvers without a licence (before the pollies realised the pistols were mainly new ones, not just rusted antiques) but I had a young family and couldn't justify the marginal utility of one. My father would have taken a dim view, too. The only pistol remembered in our family was one my grandfather had in WWI. He lent it to someone going out on night patrol who didn't make it back in the morning. Dad said it had been a .32, so had evidently been Pappy's private possession.

You weren't supposed to fire those cap-and-ball pistols but people did, of course. Others got Colt AR7 survival rifles and 'lost' the barrel over the side of their boat, causing them to need a new one ...

- Paul

Edited by Paul (20/02/10 01:02 AM)

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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Paul]
      #154240 - 20/02/10 01:31 AM

Quote:

For all that 9.3, I would have loved to carry a pistol around the farm as a kid, just to have a go at foxes and rabbits that sometimes popped up near the tractor.
- Paul



You reminded me very well of my years as a kid on the farm, was actually lucky enough once I was earning money to get a little .22 rimfire..carried it with me wherever I went--was a ton of fun and great to learn with..shot many many many cans, gophers, rabbits, etc...man, to live those days again..

On another note, had a visit with my good friend Mark this week who is not a retired game warden. He had spent the last 28 years riding in the back country all over the mountains in Montana...we discussed this topic..he stated in all his years, his weapon of choice was a 12 gauge..loaded with slugs..he stated was very very effective..and never had a need for anything else..so I guess as stated, long guns rule but if not available I would still be happy with a proper handgun..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Dphariss
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Scott]
      #154345 - 21/02/10 04:45 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the help. I was considering either the 44mag or 45 colt, any preferences? Also 2 inch or 4 inch barrel? I would think that 4 barrel would be a little better to shoot accurately.



5" 629 Classic.Short enough to carry but long enough to make decent velocity. A 2" 44 mag is a waste of time in my opinion.
The bigger calibers are more powerful but harder to shoot well and if you can't hit with it its no better than a hammer.
Use hard cast or one of the factory "cast core" type non-expending loads etc. Practice some DA shooting as well.

Dan

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Dphariss
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #154347 - 21/02/10 05:03 PM

Quote:


<snip>
There used to be an old joke around here..about tourists who hiked using pepper spray and bear bells...all the bear spray did was season the human to make him more palatable to the bear..and the bells made it easier to identify it was a human in the bear scat..

Ripp



Midway Store Slana, AK



Dan

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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Dphariss]
      #154365 - 22/02/10 01:30 AM

Quote:

Practice some DA shooting as well.

Dan



+1

Weak hand, too.

That's my reasoning for avoiding the really big ones {.500, etc}.

I agree about the 2" bbl. I like the light tapered bbl on my 29-9. As light as a standard-weight 4", plus 2 1/2 inches of barrel.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154381 - 22/02/10 02:57 AM

I may be in the minority here, but my favorite carrying gun in the woods is a S&W 657 with a 6 1/2" barrel. It's chambered in the .41 Remington Mag; my favorite bigger bore caliber.

I've been firing factory Buffalo Bore ammo (230 grain keith style bullets at 1430 fps) and factory Cor-Bon ammo (250 grain Keith style bullets at 1325 fps). For fun shooting, I use the standard fare of 175 grain or 210 grain factory loads.

This handgun with open sights is very accurate and carry's well for me as it is well-balanced.

This is the same as the 629, but the 657 has thicker cyclinder walls which greatly contributes to its strength and tightness over the years with heavier loads.

For a general, all-around, utility carry gun, I still like my S&W model 15 Combat Masterpiece in .38 Special and 4" barrel.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (22/02/10 03:15 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #154391 - 22/02/10 03:26 AM

Dan's suggestion to practise DA shooting is not only a good one, but vital. Too many guys don't shoot DA, only SA with thier big guns.

It takes a lot of good practise and training to be an acurate double action revolver shot.

Of those who do shoot DA, many are prone to backing off the main spring for a lighter pull - DON'T do it - A failure to fire will result at the worse time possible.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #154407 - 22/02/10 06:47 AM

Quote:

I may be in the minority here, but my favorite carrying gun in the woods is a S&W 657 with a 6 1/2" barrel. It's chambered in the .41 Remington Mag; my favorite bigger bore caliber.



++++


Experience may suggest just because you are in the minority doesn't mean you are wrong or any less correct...

One of my very good friends has the same gun--and as you suggested, also very accurate and IMHO, a very under rated caliber---

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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WesF
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #160250 - 11/05/10 03:21 AM



I live in northwest Montana, so even if i'm just out hiking I take one of the two top guns. In the northern part of the valley I live in there are more grizzly bears, so I take the .44 mag. But when I go hunting in the southern part of the valley, there aren't many brown bears around but plenty of black bears. I carry the .357 mag in the south end because I have to hike further in to my hunting grounds. The little less weight is appreaciated if i'm dragging a muley or elk quarter out.

Some people say you need a .500 or a .460 I suppose in the situation of a charging bear, more gun is never a bad thing, but I've felt safe enough with the guns I carry. I've had two instances where I've walked up on bears at close range. Turn a corner in a trail and bam there the bear stands. So far I've never had to shoot. I've just backed off and gone back to the truck to find different hiking / hunting grounds.


A black bear I found waiting for me as I rounded a bend on an old logging trail. This was taken 2 years ago in early summer. The bear knew I was comming and was waiting to see what I was. Ears perked up and waiting to see if i was something tasty. I was scouting a new area for bow season. I happened to already have my camera on with the flash off. I managed to snap this picture from my waist as I backed up and drew my .357 Once out of sight, I walked back down to the truck, and said enough scouting for today.


Edited by WesF (11/05/10 03:25 AM)

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: WesF]
      #184467 - 24/06/11 04:40 AM

[image]http://www.ruger.thegunsource.com/DisplayPic.aspx?PIC=66664[/image]

The Ruger Alaskan 454 Casul/45 long Colt is the best for this purpose because it was designed strictly for that purpose!

This pistol being short and double action along with full house 454 ammo it can be used even when under a big brown bear without haveing to cock it between shots or having a long barrel get in the way. A big grizz or brownie at charging range simply doesn't need more barrel than is absolutely necessary, but power it does need!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (24/06/11 04:53 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #184482 - 24/06/11 07:39 AM

Illegal to pack handguns here. If I'm in the bush other than during hunting season, I'm packing a 12 bore with 500gr. round balls loaded to 1,600fps - or a 9.3 + rifle. If I'm in the bush during hunting season, it's a 9.3 or .375.

With these, I've never felt undergunned, but overweighted at times.

I have a 4" M29 - always have, since 1973 - on my 3rd one - running 20gr. 296 and 300gr. Truncated cone commercial hard cast. Used sparingly, they cut each other at 25 yards. I might be out a gr. or 2 on the load - memory and all.

I just can't pack it legally except at the range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #184521 - 25/06/11 12:09 AM

Quote:

Illegal to pack handguns here. If I'm in the bush other than during hunting season, I'm packing a 12 bore with 500gr. round balls loaded to 1,600fps - or a 9.3 + rifle. If I'm in the bush during hunting season, it's a 9.3 or .375.

With these, I've never felt undergunned, but overweighted at times.

I have a 4" M29 - always have, since 1973 - on my 3rd one - running 20gr. 296 and 300gr. Truncated cone commercial hard cast. Used sparingly, they cut each other at 25 yards. I might be out a gr. or 2 on the load - memory and all.

I just can't pack it legally except at the range.




Reading this rather pisses me off...here you are, in the bush hunting and minding your own business and some liberal morons in a city somewhere have decided you cant carry a handgun..WOW...

sorry, but just have a hard time dealing with the idiots running goverments whether in Canada, the USA or pretty much anywhere else..they do a hell of a job, which is why the US is 14 TRILLION in debt....

guess I got off topic a bit..

anyway..as to the model 29--pretty much use a similar load--like the 300 gr hard cast for hiking in Griz country...

thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #184532 - 25/06/11 02:00 AM

Good note about black bears, WesF - as they are actually more dangerous than grizzlies - attack to attack.

Most times, a grizzly is only going to teach you a lesson, it seems - he knows he's superior and is going to give you a beating and perhaps 400 stiches is your reward for pissing him off. Rarely does a grizzly attack turn into a predetory attack, although it does happen.

A black bear, if attacking for the same reason - ie: encroaching on his or her territory, in protection of young, in defense of food, whatever, a Black Bear attack will virtually 98% of the time, tun into a predetory attack and you become a food item.

That is why WesF found that black bear waiting for him, just to check him out. If you don't scare him away, he might think he can handle you and if he makes that decision, he might slowly walk into concealment to one side or the other then move to intercept you. A lightening fast side attack is imminent in this case - it's the manner of the beast - come in from close concealment, low to the ground at 25mph and pull the prey down to the ground to his level - it's about over.

Ever walk along a trail and get the feeling you're being watched? Turn around and there's a black bear behind you on the trail. Keep watching and he might walk into the bush.
Start walking again and in a few minutes, there's another down in front of you on the trail - guess what, it's same bear. Scare him off, or pehaps he'll make a decision that might not be in your best interest. Always be prepared to scare a black bear away- make yourself as large as possible and noise helps. A rifle or handgun shot also works.

Grizzlies are just not that curious abotu people and if they hear or smell you, will usually clear off - they don't like people. Black bears at times, are not that wary of humans - see the second and third paragraphs.

This, in my opinon plus what I learned in a Government Employee Bear Awarness lesson. It is worth knowing by everyone.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #184538 - 25/06/11 02:43 AM

Darryl

GOOD info..and everything I have been told through the years as well ..and also in talking to biologists, outfitters, etc...

Personally, at least to this point, have had more questionable actions by black bears, but as you state, the griz usually take off..problem down here around Yellowstone park is that they(GRIZ) have not been hunted in a very long time and as such have lost much of their fear of humans..so dont clear off like they once did..we actually had a couple deaths in the park last year..first time in quite a while..and griz are everywhere...have a friend who actually had a sow with 3 cubs in his yard last week..said he hasnt seen one with 3 ever..and he's lived there 46 years...

anyway,,,he photographs them through the spring as a hobby..has seen 16 different ones just around his place..he knows this by markings, ear tag numbers, etc...granted it was their breeding season..but man that is a lot of bears...

thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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PHMadness
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #184551 - 25/06/11 06:43 AM

Not that I neeeeed one here in Utah, bears are the excuse I am giving wifey for buying the .460 S&W, it works so much better than "I want because".
Truth be told, having lived in so many places where I've been warned about the bears and I've never even seen one outside of Yellowstone NP and I don't figure those even count as a wild bear sighting. I just want a new hand cannon to play with.

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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: PHMadness]
      #184554 - 25/06/11 07:32 AM

Quote:

Not that I neeeeed one here in Utah, bears are the excuse I am giving wifey for buying the .460 S&W, it works so much better than "I want because".
Truth be told, having lived in so many places where I've been warned about the bears and I've never even seen one outside of Yellowstone NP and I don't figure those even count as a wild bear sighting. I just want a new hand cannon to play with.



**

OH, I think THEY count..ask the relatives of those that were mauled and killed last spring...

I consider myself lucky any time I get to see one however, whether in YNP or anywhere else--pretty amazing animals...as will all wild animals, their strength is incredible..never forget watching a documentary once of a griz in the wild picking up an entire caribou with one arm and lifting it up over about a 3ft embankment..amazing..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #196196 - 09/12/11 11:16 AM

I realize this is an old post, but thought I'd respond anyway. I carry a 4" 1911 45, only its converted to a 45 super. Loaded with Buffalo Bore 230 gr trunjcated cone that have a huge meplat which chrony's right at 1030fps, not only do I carry a 1911 daily but shoot one very regularly. And I feel very confident in my ability to hit what I shoot at, which I feel is a key factor. Most guy's that carry one of the huge handguns don't shoot them enough to be proficient with them. We don't have a lot of big bears where I live but do have some.
Bob

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: aromakr]
      #196198 - 09/12/11 12:24 PM

I shot a black bear one evening with the .45 ACP handgun I was packing on the job, at the jail where I worked - that evening, doing the prowl job. The black bear, a big male, maybe 300 to 350 pounds or so died insantly, a 260gr. Speer HP in the side of his head. I didn't want to lung shoot him and have him moan/howl - the inmates were sleeping (inside the building) within 40yards of my shot.

The handgun was my IPSC gun at the time, a 1911, 5" Wilson barrel, side-ported slide. The load worked wonderfully, but did not exit. 260gr. Speer driven by 11.2gr. WWpowder (Speer #9, I think) - velocity 960fps. I'd call it good for close in work.

I used the same bullet in my .45 Colt Trapper driven at 1,940fps - shot him in the face - frontal at about 5feet. The bullet turned his entire skull & contents into mush. He didn't know I was standing in front of him on the trail - going to walk right into me. Small bear about 175 pounds - good 3 year old.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #196206 - 09/12/11 04:28 PM

Umm Daryl , don't you think the shot would have woken them (the inmates) unless you had one of those nifty Tv silencers screwed on ? LoL

Thank you for the post & story , I was going to get a AMT long slide Hard Baller in 45 Super to use as back up , but it only would have been useful (?) on pigs & I wanted it for Bovines & Crocs (Hanging off my or custmers leg) so carryed a 44Mag S&W for a while , it had a crap holster , which made carrying it a pain !

Holsters are a big thing , often over looked .

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controlled_feed
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Sarg]
      #196227 - 09/12/11 10:12 PM

When I hunted in Alaska a few years ago, they told me the most important thing with a hand gun carried for bear protection was to file the front sight off.....................so it didn't hurt when the bear shoved the hand gun up your ar#e!

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Sarg]
      #196241 - 10/12/11 05:30 AM

Quote:

Umm Daryl , don't you think the shot would have woken them (the inmates) unless you had one of those nifty Tv silencers screwed on ? LoL

Thank you for the post & story , I was going to get a AMT long slide Hard Baller in 45 Super to use as back up , but it only would have been useful (?) on pigs & I wanted it for Bovines & Crocs (Hanging off my or custmers leg) so carryed a 44Mag S&W for a while , it had a crap holster , which made carrying it a pain !

Holsters are a big thing , often over looked .



I never fired more than one or two shots in an evening, whether on the bears or at the danged house cats that lived around there and scratched up the tanks and bags on our MC's.

A single shot would wake them up for sure, but they never complained that I heard of - with 2 shots or more shots & I'm sure they'd have raised a stink. Provincial jail - short timers, not Federal.

I packed my M29 but only ever shot the odd feline with it. Ended up shooting 8 bears there one fall - all with rifles except for the one with the .45 ACP.

The holster would be vitally important for a long time carry and whether walking or riding would also come into the equation.

My issue "bomber jacket" had inside pockets that held the short barreled revolver comfortably. Access wasn't too bad, nothing fast, but fast wasn't needed.

Big fat bullets do amazing things.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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