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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Bowhunting + Bows, Spears & Knives

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Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153823 - 15/02/10 10:10 PM

Quote:

A 10mm AUTO ! best handgun caliber ever ...

A Glock is not the only option for 10mm, by the way. Mine is an SVI Infinity. If you are not familiar with these guns, check out this website and browse a bit, those guns are very, very cool

http://www.gunsamerica.com/919203371/Gun...lite_SS_NIB.htm

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Grenadier
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
#153845 - 16/02/10 03:18 AM

Quote:

"No Ma'am, if I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought a rifle"!

Sound advice but having a pistol as backup is just as sound. There have been many bear attacks where the victim had a rifle but the bear was too fast and/or too close to use it. A pistol on the hip gives you another chance. Best answer, carry both.

Bear breaks rifle

He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger.

saw the grizzly for just a fraction of a second before it was on him - revolver saves him

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Grenadier]
#153855 - 16/02/10 05:42 AM

I have shot a fairly decent brown bear last year (8.5 feet), and can tell you that you should never rely on body shots to stop a bear, forget the 'light rifle', shoot at the head with a semi-auto in 10mm AUTO, you simply have more ammo and speed to make up for misses. I my case, I pumped 4 shots from my .404 Jeffrey into the bear's chest cavity at distances from 10 to 60 yards. Those were very stiff handloads, by the way, similar to full-house .416 Rigby loads. Less effective then I had expected ... :

First hit made him rise to his full 8.5 ft, with a big roar ... then he came at me. Only the second shot at 10 yards distance made him run away, as he clearly did not like what he was being served. I hit him a third and forth time at about 60 yards when he tried to pass my position sideways. At the position of the forth shot, I later found his lungs all over the place - still didn't impress him, he kept running for another 70 yards until he dropped (and was still not dead!!). The bear had softball size exit holes from my African caliber, and all 4 shots hit the chest cavity, yet it was a close call. There are bears that will fall fast, but on occasion, they can prove very tough. I own a .470 NE now, and spend most practice time with off-hand head-shots at 50 yards

.

Hence, as a backup, the handgun for the headshot is the only option, whereby I would actually prefer pepper spray: Some game department has done stats on the effectiveness of guns versus pepper spray in stopping charges: The pepper spray won by 75 % versus 30 % for the guns (in turning a charge).

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153861 - 16/02/10 06:16 AM

Quote:

Hence, as a backup, the handgun for the headshot is the only option, whereby I would actually prefer pepper spray: Some game department has done stats on the effectiveness of guns versus pepper spray in stopping charges: The pepper spray won by 75 % versus 30 % for the guns (in turning a charge).

______
.

I don't agree with the above.

Living in Griz country for the past 20 plus year and having had numerous encounters with either species (griz or black) when either with friends or myself, I will take my chances with my .44 mag and 300 gr Cast bullets over pepper spray.

Where I live, it is more often than not there is a pretty good breeze blowing. What happens when you are being charged on the downwind side of the charge? Have a really good client that had that happen to him about 3 years ago while walking his dogs..black bear come at him, he hit the spray which he himself took in the face..he dropped to the ground unable to see or breath..said the bear blew right by him and kept going...

I also don't buy the study put forth as legit..have seen that study as well. One concern I have with the game departments suggesting pepper spray is that their views are often tainted heavily by their political views versus actual performance in the field. Have been to numerous meetings by the local Fish and Game dept where they propose the same thing---overwhelmingly, at the meetings I have gone too, the vast majority of locals stick with a gun.

Bears are an animal that die just like any other living organism. You hit them correctly on the onset and they typically die quickly, period. I have two friends that have shot, between the two of them, 5 brown bears and or grizzlies..all shot with a 7 MM Rem. Mag..most with one shot..

I shot one several years ago, fairly large as well, squared slightly over 9ft..one shot dropped him with the .375 second shot as he got back up heading to cover--we went in the next morning and found him dead..

Not stating any of this to start an argument or whatever...but....

There used to be an old joke around here..about tourists who hiked using pepper spray and bear bells...all the bear spray did was season the human to make him more palatable to the bear..and the bells made it easier to identify it was a human in the bear scat..

Ripp

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404bearslayer
.300 member

Reged: 28/04/09
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
#153863 - 16/02/10 06:54 AM

Ripp:

Liked the joke about the tourists:). That the study might have been 'worked' a bit towards 'political correctness' (... use spray, not guns) occurred to me as well, as the percentage difference in favor of spray appears a bit high for me. I also know about the breeze issue. However, a lot of people out there are not exactly good shots, even less so with a handgun. Those, I believe, would be better off with the spray, even if theyhit themselves with it

.

As to bears going down quickly, some do, some don't. There are reports of bears taking 13 shots from .375 and then disappearing in the woods, to ones that go down with one shot from a .308. Seems to depend on the bear. As for the effectivness of the 7 MM REM: My guide (who used this, and also told me beforehand that this would be plenty) took a shot at my downed bear (as I was out of ammo) with his 7mm Rem at the bear's shoulder from about 15 feet with a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Well, perfect mushroom, 100 % weight retention, just didn't penetrate the shoulder, broke no bone, simply got stuck in the shoulder. His face showed quite a bit of disbelief - I was next to him when the bullet was cut out of the shoulder during the caping of the bear ... . They are not all alike. I should add that this was the biggest bear that was shot in the northern Carpatian mountains in the last 28 years, - the 8.5 ft length does not tell the whole story, as he was built extremely stout: He was just shy of 1000 pounds, very strong, with very little fat, all muscle - after caping you could see that - legs like tree trunks.

Edited by 404bearslayer (16/02/10 07:11 AM)

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Loc: GB

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153871 - 16/02/10 08:49 AM

Pepper spray for a big bear ???? I thought you were kidding but apparently not !! Jesus, I'd feel a whole lot safer with a .44 mag in whatever model. If I can spray his face I can stick the barrel in his face. Pepper spray !! that really is a close encounter of the worst kind, best, Mike

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#153883 - 16/02/10 01:37 PM

Bear are really amazingly stout, even the small ridge runners like I've shot. I've killed 9 and maybe they all piled up on the scale would balance one big whopper from Alaska. Maybe my side would slant down a bit more.

Seriously, the pepper spray thing as RIPP says is PC Bravo Sierra all the way, and I am not tossing rocks at pepper spray. It is nasty stuff.

But there is no way I'd trust my condition to spray. Both? Sure!

Truth is, a .44 Mag failed me, and still I'd rather it over the spray, tho both wouldn't be overkill IMO.

The 10mm is fine, but the .44 is a much better caliber.

As for hitting a bear in the head with a handgun during a fight, good luck.

The violence and speed of a bear attack is not going to provide the ideal scenario to stick one in the mellon. Having been there in that regard, I know it. But a good Keith-type bullet driven hard should disrupt tissue and drive deep enough to hit CNS if it is in the way.

Which it might not be, in which case you are a statistical curiousity.

I had the hounds and my 14 year old son to back me up on a fast, furious fight with a small bear.

Pistols suck.

Rifles rule for bear, and good shooting isn't icing, it's what kills and keeps rounds expended to a minimum.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
#153897 - 16/02/10 10:03 PM

No Hommer, we're definitely out of our depths here, but I reckon the 92 is a great little rifle. Where would Hollywood be without it giving the cowboys a sexy substitute for the big ol' Henry, 66 and 73 that really covered the wild west? This reminds me: it tickled me, when reading 'Lonesome Dove', that McMurtry thought the Henry was a powerful rifle.

Getting back to the subject, have I mentioned on this thread the Ruger .41 mag revolver I borrowed as back-up in Wyoming in 1986? It was good and heavy with a 7.5-inch barrel and tended to drag my trousers down a bit. A single action, of course, so I could have been in extra trouble had a bear bitten off my thumb.

- Paul

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404bearslayer
.300 member

Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Paul]
#153906 - 17/02/10 01:10 AM

Mike,

yes - I was serious about the pepper spray

. Of course it would be optimal to have a big-caliber rifle at hand, with a man behind it like you, experienced in shooting moving game. However, this is a bowhunter's thread, with a question from an American.

First of all, bowhunters already carry a lot of equipment, maybe even a folded tree-stand. If they settle on a rifle or big revolver, there will come the day where they will leave it at home because it bothers them and, mostly, they will not have had a bear encounter anyhow. So it has to be something light, like a pistol or a spray, that is ALWYAS on them. No use having a rifle or a .500 S&W if its in the backpack while cleaning moose, or back at home. It is a question of practicability. I usually leave my .454 Casull at home and take the 10mm, simply because the Casull is so big and heavy.

And for Americans - driven shoots are not done there, certainly have never heard of them and never seen one during the 20 years I have been hunting in Texas. That means most people there won't have the skills to shoot properly at an animal that's coming at them, which is quite likely to give them the shakes anyhow. Those might in deed be better off with a spray. No gun is of any use if you cannot hit running game. Just seeing what results some people here in Germany produce when they have to shoot at running game makes me very careful to recommend using a gun on a charging bear for everyone. If you consider that, practice it beforehand. Here in Europe, we have 'shooting cinemas' for that purpose, I know of none in the US. That would be one: http://www.schiesskino.de/ (You shoot with real ammo at moving game on a movie screen and your hits or misses are then shown on the screen by red dots, computer programs calculate proper lead for close or far away animals. VERY good training)

Edited by 404bearslayer (17/02/10 01:17 AM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153908 - 17/02/10 01:47 AM

I like the S&W Titanium frame 44 magnum revolver. VERY light for carrying, and since you probably will not have to shoot it, recoil is a non-issue.

Or you could get one of those 8 pound S&W X-frame guns in .500 S&W which are a real pain in the butt to carry.

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404bearslayer
.300 member

Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 500grains]
#153913 - 17/02/10 02:14 AM

I've had one of those titanium revolvers in my hands once, had totally forgotten about them. These are in deed incredibly light - very cool also

. That in .44 mag would really be a very good choice as back-up!

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 500grains]
#153914 - 17/02/10 02:15 AM

"with a man behind it like you" !!!.........you are far too kind .404, I wish, I do know though that if I did have a bear looking at me in a nasty way if all I had was pepper spray I'd be climbing a tree and throwing my soiled undies at said bear

best, Mike (sorry forgot it was a bowhunt thread, what do those titanium .44's cost ?

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#153915 - 17/02/10 02:25 AM

Throwing soiled undies could possibly compete with pepper spray in turning a charge

.

I found a .44 Titanium model in the following website. Base models seem to run around $ 1000.-

http://www.impactguns.com/store/022188634143.html

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153916 - 17/02/10 02:40 AM

RIPP is to modest. I will bet bucks he can hit with that thing, but be caure those who haven't tried one with heavy loads.

There is nothing wrong with those Titanium guns but I'd recommend you shoot one before buying. Nobody wants lighter gear than me, but I have chosen the steel framed gun because I like to shoot it, get confident in it and be able to hit well it it.

I have witnessed a fellow missing a trapped coyote at 4 feet with a .44 he was a bit hesitant to use, and I do not believe the bit about recoil not being felt under stress, especially if a fine shot must be taken at a moving or stationary animal. Sure, if the gun is pressed into the chest of an animal the kick isn't a bit deal unless the grip shifts significantly in the hand due to wet, sweat, etc.

A 4 inch Smith is not so heavy to be left home tho I don't carry a handgun much when carrying a rifle. By itself it is a burden of bulk, not just weight.

My own .44 is a Smith Heritage M29-9 with 6 1/2 inch barrel, a near duplicate of the 1926 Hand Ejector except in .44 Magnum. It is a fine sixgun, no heavier than a standard barrel 4" gun. I shoot ground squirrels with it in the summer, and can hit with it and have full confidence in that. Some fellows have reported hand damage/injury shooting the Titanium guns, just a point to consider. I myself developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hand from lots of .44 shooting.

Anyway, try the guns first. Strong handed, weak handed, too, not just two-handed.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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404bearslayer
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Loc: Germany

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
#153917 - 17/02/10 02:47 AM

9.3x57,

recoil from a .44 is rather mild, observe what a custom handgun in .600 Nitro Express will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsEojBGojI

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153918 - 17/02/10 03:22 AM

And then there is just pure silliness.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
#153926 - 17/02/10 03:48 AM

Pepper.
Good God, no way.
I wouldn't use pepper on a feral dumbass human.

On handguns and 'the burden of carry', I've noted this before and I'll say it here again - I've carried (on a belt rig) my large X-Frame Smith and Wesson .50 through hundreds of miles of hound-chasing through this...

...Siskiyou County timber.

With the more slim/trim models like this one...

...carry would be even easier.

There's a lot of talk about just how unmanageable the .500 is or how heavy and impossible to carry they are -- and I stand here to say it's total bullshit.
If you can shoot, you can shoot a S&W500
If you're talking bear/nasty game, there's no good reason not to include the 500 in the conversation.
There are so many 'pussycat' loads for the 500 that are miles past the .44mag which are sweet to shoot, I strongly recommend giving the 500 a whirl.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153928 - 17/02/10 03:53 AM

Quote:

9.3x57,

recoil from a .44 is rather mild, observe what a custom handgun in .600 Nitro Express will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsEojBGojI

I like the way he holds it, he should have at least been able to predict some recoil when loading.

Heres how to handle a bear. web page

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by 450_366 (17/02/10 07:18 AM)

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404bearslayer
.300 member

Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 450_366]
#153945 - 17/02/10 07:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

9.3x57,

recoil from a .44 is rather mild, observe what a custom handgun in .600 Nitro Express will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsEojBGojI

I like the way he holds it, he should have at least been able to predict some recoil when loading.

Heres how to handle a bear. web page

LOL, that clearly shows how to best stop a bear attack! Leave all guns and sprays at home... .

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26498
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#153975 - 17/02/10 11:44 AM

Quote:

Heres how to handle a bear. web page

You just HAD to go and show that Canadian Salmon S
fishing video, didn't you. Now everyone knows how to do it.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#154008 - 17/02/10 02:12 PM

Quote:

Mike,

And for Americans - driven shoots are not done there, certainly have never heard of them and never seen one during the 20 years I have been hunting in Texas. That means most people there won't have the skills to shoot properly at an animal that's coming at them, which is quite likely to give them the shakes anyhow. Those might in deed be better off with a spray.

You are going to think I am picking on you and I am NOT..

But I moved to Montana from N Dakota 20 plus years ago--prior to moving to Montana, in the first 30 years of my life on this planet, I had never shot a deer standing still..ever...in the midwest, a very common hunting practice, in fact it is probably used 90% of the time, is having part of the group walk a big tree area, or high grass field with posters startigically placed around the area..when the whitetail get up and start running out..typically the guys walking will hammer them or if they are missed, the posters get a whack at them on the way by...so that misconception by Europeans is considerably off target..pun intended..

As to practice--agree it is needed and should be done..that is where we would walk fields and shoot running rabbits with out .22 rimfires as kids...then as we got older and I got my first highpower..(.303 British)...we would put cardboard inside the tire and take turns rolling them off the hills with the shooter a 100 yards or more away and would shoot are the moving tire..this really seemed to work for us..IMHO..

I realize individuals in Texas typically don't do this..but that is/can be a product of the terrain..in the areas I have been, setting up posters would not have worked nearly as well as where I can from..plus Texans are typically lazy and just don't want to walk..KIDDING..its a joke..but couldn't resist..

To sum it up, no one will convince me that spray is the way too go..unless that person doesn't own a gun, I am not buying the spray idea..but, each to their own..if someone wants to use it my hat is off to them..plus, the way I see it, it will eventually lead to less competition in the field..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#154010 - 17/02/10 02:18 PM

Quote:

Throwing soiled undies could possibly compete with pepper spray in turning a charge .

I found a .44 Titanium model in the following website. Base models seem to run around $ 1000.-

http://www.impactguns.com/store/022188634143.html

That is the exact one I have --along with several other models--as for weight issues, really like it..

As too soiled undies, I trust there have been more than a few pair of them around after a near attack with a bear or any other similar threat...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany

Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
#154013 - 17/02/10 02:39 PM

Ripp:

Leave my good old Texans alone!

You are however right in that they like it convenient. Deer hunting in Texas means generally shooting them at an automatic feeder. It's timed, so that you go there just before it throws, then the deer come within 5 minutes and get shot. On top of it, the feeders are usually placed only 60 yards away from the stand, which does not make for very difficult shooting. Texas has its share of crack shots, of course, but many, especially older guys, have never done a different kind of hunting. Partly its also because of terrain: The Hill Country, as well as Southern Texas is very thick brushland, often you do not even have a clearing that's wider then 60 yards (apart from open pastures). It's of course different in beanfield country or out in the Rockies. I know Montana, by the way, almost ended up buying a ranch in the Bitterroot Valley.

Well, I bought one in Texas instead, about 15 years ago. First thing I did there was to move the feeders away from the blinds and to replace most of them with free-choice feeders where I did not allow anyone to hunt. Some of my friends, and especially my ranchhand (whom I allow hunting and fishing there) were not so pleased. They simply felt not comfortable shooting beyond 60 yards. Once my friends got into Pronghorn shooting, however, the game changed for them and they became long-range shooters (me, too - took some nice ones in the Texas Panhandle area).

Edited by 404bearslayer (17/02/10 02:49 PM)

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 404bearslayer]
#154016 - 17/02/10 02:55 PM

Don't sell Pepper Spray short.

It is highly effective.

If confronted by a mean grizz, spray yourself in the face.

Bear have sensitive hearing and cannot stand the bloodcurdling screams you will emanate and will flee the scene posthaste, leaving you to recover in due time.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
#154036 - 17/02/10 06:46 PM

Quote:

Don't sell Pepper Spray short.

It is highly effective.

If confronted by a mean grizz, spray yourself in the face.

Bear have sensitive hearing and cannot stand the bloodcurdling screams you will emanate and will flee the scene posthaste, leaving you to recover in due time.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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