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Yogi000
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DM]
      #91363 - 13/12/07 02:06 AM

QUOTE From DM ----"Is someone here going to try to tell me that "if" I had been using #4 buckshot, those buckshot would have bounced off that moose???"

If you re-read the post, I was JOKING when I said that about shot "bouncing off" an animal. I was being facetious.

I am a fan of buckshot for close range and defense against animals that might bite especially when walking in the dark in the woods. For my sister and her mountian lion problem I bought her a 410 double barrel and have laoded it with 000 in part because I believe in the 000 buckshot.

I am also am a bigger fan of slugs. Personally when I hunt I like knowing that where I aim is where the slug/bullet goes. That is just my own preference. I have shot at the bullseye of too many targets with shot and then found where I aimed is not where any pellets hit. That to me is not a "satisfactory hunting" for MOST big game scenarios... for MOST of my hunting preferences. Yet for an animal like a coyote or hog or even a big cat, the concept of point and shoot because the animal is charging perhaps toward me then the fact that it shoots a pattern, one that might not include any pellets at precisely where the sites line up, is satisfactory and even beneficial.

Edited by Yogi000 (13/12/07 02:15 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DM]
      #91364 - 13/12/07 02:08 AM

I find people who know nothing about ballistics say things like this.

"Let me ask you this.... 00 buck measures .330"... How many of you would let a guy armed with .338 mag rifle, loaded with a lead round ball at 1,250 fps take a shot at you at 50 yards??? How about 5 guys all shooting at you at the same time at that range???"

; Anyone who shoots at a moose with a load of bird shot, or buck shot for that matter needs to have their hunting priveledges removed & firearms confisacted. Have some repect for that animal. I do not believe your moose story.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (13/12/07 02:10 AM)


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Tatume
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DarylS]
      #91366 - 13/12/07 02:34 AM

Daryl, Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think. :-) Take care, Tom

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Dave_Hall
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: Tatume]
      #91385 - 13/12/07 07:33 AM

It's called Mooseshot I think Federal makes it.From Buckshot to fairytails we got it all.

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9.3x57
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: Dave_Hall]
      #91386 - 13/12/07 08:05 AM

Back in May of 1958, a few years before I was born, I and my brother were handloading for the upcoming whitetail deer and Cape Buffalo season which opens in New Jersey in June, during the dead of winter. My brother was a heavy bullet man, and he favored Number 8 birdshot for deer and #9's for buffalo.

I was stuck between a rock and a hard place, as he used up all the heavy shot so I went with about a half a bag of Number 4's. I wanted to make sure I didn't overkill the deer and buff, so I seated a primer, chambered the otherwise empty case in my H&R topper, and then poured Bullseye in thru the muzzle till I could reach it with the point of a British No.4 Enfield spike bayonet. Then I filled the barrel the rest of the way with the #4's, except for a little space at the muzzle. I filled that in with JB Weld so the shot wouldn't run out.

I took twelve deer and 5 Cape buff that year, getting most of the buff in a friend's garden on a control hunt in Cherry Hill though two I got down in the Pine Barrens just west of Atlantic City. The deer I got in East Orange, Salem, Moorestown, Cape May and one I took there in the Pine Barrens while gutting one of my Cape Buff.

My brother got skunked that year because just before season he took up with a girlfriend and spent all his time chasing her and all his money on cheap perfume and gas for his moped.

Next time I am not going to use the same load. It was loud and I had to buy a new H&R topper every time I shot a buff or a deer, and the JB Weld took way too long to set up so followup shots were out of the question. Towards the end of the season I got fed up with the reloading monkeyshines so I just bought 4 of them and tied them to the pack frame I used to carry the buff out. This gave me 7 fast shots.

This is the last time I am going to mention birdshot in this thread, and if anybody else does I'm gonna tell Nitro!!

PS: For those that might be confused, this post of mine is complete BS. What is not BS is that the thread is about buckshot. It is not about birdshot.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (13/12/07 11:24 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91388 - 13/12/07 09:03 AM

I am now wondering why anyone would consider using buck shot for hunting, when slugs, round balls or rifle's do a better job.
: I've heard of guys, on forums saying they need a wider pattern for shooting running deer so that some of the pellets might hit it. This goes against my grain, considerably, as you've probably noticed. So, the immediate question that comes to mind is, what good are 2 shot in the joels, on the shoulder or in the guts, or hind end of that running deer, or the two taht actually hit the lung area but stop on ribs? Why not put a rifle bullet, slug or round ball through it's lungs and be done with it- ?
; If one needs a big pattern to hit with a couple or few pellets, that person should learn to shoot before going hunting. I don't know of any deer seasons that call for shot only, but usually allow buck shot or slugs. Put a slug through a deer's lungs and it will die, whereas the 4 pellets that hit the lung area, stopped on the ribs or on the leg that angled back over the lungs while walking.
; As to the moose, I've cut and wrapped too any of them to believe a #6 shot, or buck shot for that matter will penetrate a moose rib - most of which are over 1-1/8" wide, and 3/8" thick and act like springs when hit or the 1/2" in between each rib comprised of 3/4" of fibrous muscle, just to get to the first lung. To get to there, they have to penetrate 2" of hair, 1/4" of hide, 1" or more of fat, connective tissue and 1" of muscle - before hitting the rib or muscle between the ribs. sorry, something just doesn't add up.
; Friend of mine shot a black bear while at work on perimeter security shift, 5 times with 00 buck, the first shot at 20 yards, then closer each successive shot. The bear kept walking towards him after each shot. The 5th, knocked it down and he frantically radioed 'inside' for someone to bring him more ammo. He'd only taken 5 rounds from the locker when he signed out the pelter. At that time, the bear which had been rolling around and growling had almost gained it's feet again and was maddern, well, you get the picture. By the time we got out, my friend had gone up a ladder to the roof and the bear had expired at it's base. Total time alive after the first shot - 'bout 5 min. It was a descent sized bear, but far from huge, maybe 275 to 325 pounds. It's head had been riddled with pellets, one eye gone along with an ear shredded but no pellets had found the brain. The chest shots, the first three fired, did make it to the lungs for some of the pellets, which finally did him in. We had a grand old time disecting that bear.
; The very next night, the shift change gaurd, shot another bear as it stood up in a dumpster as he walked by. That load of buck shot at about 6 feet to the side of it's head worked well.
; After that, I always carried my own rifle or handguns on night gaurd duty, shooting 7 problem bears that fall.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DM
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DarylS]
      #91400 - 13/12/07 11:07 AM

Quote:

; Anyone who shoots at a moose with a load of bird shot, or buck shot for that matter needs to have their hunting priveledges removed & firearms confisacted. Have some repect for that animal. I do not believe your moose story.




First off, who said i was hunting?

I lived in Alaska for many years, (25 to be exact) and one year in the early 70's i burned out... All my meat burned up in that fire along with my house in the middle of the winter... When it comes to going without or using what you have, you use what you have... And one thing i "didn't" have, is money!

I never said any of the shot penetrated a rib, but it did happen as i said in my last post... I still have friends in Alaska who will tell you if i'm a lier or a story teller. (read bull shi**er) PM me and i'll give you a phone number, so you can call and ask anything you want about me... Any takers???

I didn't see anyone volunteer to be shot with that .338 as i described in the other post... You just know that buckshot is harmless at that range, so what's the problem???

BTW, i shot that moose with the shotgun i posted picts of below in this forum... Of course that was long before it looked like it does in the picts...

Lastly, as i already said in the other post, i do not like buckshot, but it does work if used properly...

DM

Edited by DM (13/12/07 11:11 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DM]
      #91412 - 13/12/07 11:41 AM

DM:

Thanks for the clarification. I do know of a small whitetail that was killed with a load of #8's once, and I once killed a bobcat in an incredible display of driving skill on my part in my Subaru Forester.

However, the post is about buckshot, so I think that is what got some eyebrows raised.

Feel free to post about buckshot. I don't and won't use the stuff on game animals because I see no reason to do so, but some folks world-wide are contrained by law, budget or available gun or ammo, and it is their input I am curious to see in print.

Thanks to all!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91442 - 13/12/07 03:52 PM

DM - not once did I say buckshot was harmless at 25 yards.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mehulkamdar
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: iqbal]
      #91447 - 13/12/07 05:24 PM

Quote:

I use buckshot(Remington)on wild boar in dense areas at night hunting.Distance is about 10/15 yards from an open jeep.Really drops the boar in its tracks.




Iqbal,

I have shot boar with ball - not buckshot - and recently India banned buckshot altogether because of wounding problems on pigs. My hunting was much like yours, close but with a maximum 30 yds range, though hunting from jeeps is impossible in the Shola in South India. Those who taught me to hunt use ball, too, so this is very interesting. The buckshot manufactured in India gets used only for crowd dispersal by police and by shotgun carrying bank security guards these days.

I will be hunting feral pigs after deer season ends in early 2008 though this would be with my muzzleloader.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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DM
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DarylS]
      #91482 - 14/12/07 03:44 AM

Quote:

DM - not once did I say buckshot was harmless at 25 yards.




How about at 50 yards? At what range in "your" opinion does buckshot become harmless?

DM


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9.3x57
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #91484 - 14/12/07 03:53 AM

[quoteI have shot boar with ball - not buckshot - and recently India banned buckshot altogether because of wounding problems on pigs. My hunting was much like yours, close but with a maximum 30 yds range, though hunting from jeeps is impossible in the Shola in South India. Those who taught me to hunt use ball, too, so this is very interesting. The buckshot manufactured in India gets used only for crowd dispersal by police and by shotgun carrying bank security guards these days.

I will be hunting feral pigs after deer season ends in early 2008 though this would be with my muzzleloader.

Good hunting!




Mehul, fascinating stuff!!

What guns are you shooting?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JabaliHunter
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DM]
      #91486 - 14/12/07 04:52 AM

It can still blind or maim at quite some distance, so I don't think it can ever be "harmless". The risk of wounding increases rapidly with distance, so I doubt whether you could consistently and cleanly kill a boar with it beyond 25 yards, but deer might be another matter. In any case, IMHO, I can't really see the point and would rather shoot slugs.

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smicha6551
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #91494 - 14/12/07 06:48 AM

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-140288022.html
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15132928_ITM

Even an air rifle can be fatal...but the idea that buck is a good hunting load strikes me as wrong. Even police (in the US) are moving away from shotguns to 5.56mm rifles (AR's mostly) and most people here wouldn't use 5.56 for hunting anything bigger than bobcats. Slugs don't cost much more than buck, and I've never heard of anywhere in the US where slugs are banned but buck is OK. Comparing a 00 buck pellet to a .338 WM is just silly, and the fact that I'd rather not get hit by one isn't testimony to it's effectiveness - I'd rather not get shot with a air rifle either. 00 buck is more like .32 NAA or .30 Luger - not exactly big game loads.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91501 - 14/12/07 07:38 AM

9ThreeXFifty7,

For many years I used a Savage-Stevens side by side 12 bore in India and the gun is srtill in very good shape. Not quite a fine gun, but to my very biased eye, she remains the most beautiful shotgun ever made. As Nakihunter rightly points out most Indians shoot pests on crop protection permits with shotguns because the powers that be grant shotgun licenses in the country much more easily than they do licenses for any other kind of gun. For a while the government tried to use explosive traps which blew a boar's jaw off when it bit into them but they have since been banned because a lof of people had their legs blown off by stepping on them and the Naxalite communists also figured out to use these in booby traps to kill rural policemen.

It is funny how the Paradox type rifling in cheap H&R shotguns made for the Indian market often turns up over there but I have yet to see an old gun of the type at gun shows over here. Perhaps, this great rifleman's country did not see any point to this kind of gun in the pre WW-2 years as Americans are riflemen first and foremost from what I can see.

I now have a 1956 Browning A-5 shotgun with two barrels in a case which I bought from the owner, a fellow old timer in Wisconsin and which I simply love.

For the pigs I shall be using another bread and butter gun, a Knight 50 cal inline muzzleloader which I was able to get brand new at Mike Schrank's Smoke N Gun in Waukegan (a shop that is a must visit for anyone who wants to buy nice old guns in the Chicagoland area) for just $ 100 with all accessories. I just love the way it shoots with 320 grain flat nosed bullets cast by my friend and business partner and a 90 Gr 2F BP load.

Wish me luck!

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Tatume
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: smicha6551]
      #91513 - 14/12/07 09:54 AM

Quote:

I've never heard of anywhere in the US where slugs are banned but buck is OK.




Slugs and centerfire rifles are banned in mnay counties in Eastern Virginia and other states in the American Southeast. Fortunately, all Virginia counties allow muzzleloading rifles. http://www.dgif.state.va.us/

Take care, Tom


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DM
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: smicha6551]
      #91522 - 14/12/07 11:32 AM

Quote:

Comparing a 00 buck pellet to a .338 WM is just silly, and the fact that I'd rather not get hit by one isn't testimony to it's effectiveness




I did "not" compare a 00 buck to a .338, did you even read what i wrote?

DM


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9.3x57
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #91528 - 14/12/07 12:45 PM

Quote:

9ThreeXFifty7,

For many years I used a Savage-Stevens side by side 12 bore in India and the gun is srtill in very good shape.

Wish me luck!

Good hunting!




Mehul, one of my first guns was a Stevens 311 with 30 inch M/F barrels. Never shot a deer with it but I did shoot a bunch of squirrels and rabbits!

Great post on your part. I am really fascinated by the accounts of hunting in India you and Naki present. Fascinating!

Please post pix of your hunts!

As for wishing you all the best...

Sukhad mouka! {I hope that's right... }

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DM]
      #91583 - 15/12/07 01:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

DM - not once did I say buckshot was harmless at 25 yards.




How about at 50 yards? At what range in "your" opinion does buckshot become harmless?

DM



; To humans, as long as it is airborn, it is harmful. We aren't talkiing about it being harmfull, but lethal to big game. Into that argument also comes 'ethical'. The problem with buckshot is there are few pellets in a load and they are all of light weight, starting initially at a low speed. Most states will not allow use of round balls of less size than .45 for hunting of deer or other 'big' game during the muzzleloading season. Some States allow as small as .40's, which is a 90 to 94 gr. ball, 50% greater weight than a single 000 buck. The reason for not allowing the .40's is lack of penetration, yet on smaller deer, they seem to do OK as long as no bones are hit. Now, those little .40 cal. balls are normally starting out at 2,000fps to 2,300fps and yet they are legislated against in most States. I shoot a .40 myself for target competition, have a .45 barrel for the deer around here, I wouldn't consider shooting one with the .40 round ball. Will it kill a deer - yes, given the best conditions, shooting angles, etc - maybe every time. Would it penetrate to the off lung of a moose on a broadside shot - I don't know, doubt it and will never find out - it isn't an ethical moose calibre in my books & neither is a .45. Is there a big possibility of somthing going wrong and merely wounding the deer - yes, and that's why I won't use it. Moose hunters seem to agree that .50 is the minimum and only a 50 yard moose rifle at best. That's a 180gr. ball, 1/2" in diameter, starting at 1,8000 to 2,000fps. I will probably make up a new barrel in .50 cal. for my rifle, just to have a more effective ball for deer shooting - or buy the English Flinter .58 I've got my eye on and have a descent moose rifle as well. I have a lot more faith in a 285gr. ball. A smaller ball may result in a dead animal, but I'd rather do my hunting before the shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: Tatume]
      #91585 - 15/12/07 01:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've never heard of anywhere in the US where slugs are banned but buck is OK.




Slugs and centerfire rifles are banned in mnay counties in Eastern Virginia and other states in the American Southeast. Fortunately, all Virginia counties allow muzzleloading rifles. http://www.dgif.state.va.us/

Take care, Tom



; I find that interesting, Tom. Was that a legislation change due to the rifled shotguns of today?
; I recall reading that the rifled shotguns would result in shotgun-slugs being banned - this had to be back in the early 80's, maybe late 70's when Shooting Times or G&A, Handloader or Rifle had editorials to that effect. I believe it was the saboted .50 cal BRI's that were becoming popular with Hastings barrels an claims they were as effective as a .50/90 Sharps. Normal Fosters of the day have an absolute max. range of something like 600 to 700 yards, same with round balls up to about 60 calibre. It was thought that the ballistics and claims of the saboted slug mfgr's. that they had a max range the same as the old buffalo ctgs. would scare the various game branchs. The old BP ctgs. had max ranges of over 3,000 yards, way too much for populated areas.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Tatume
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DarylS]
      #91590 - 15/12/07 03:28 AM

Daryl,

No, it was not a legislative response to technology advances. The rules on slugs, buckshot, and rifles have been the same since at least the 1960's, when I first starting paying attention to them. The regulations are set by the counties in Virginia, and are a patchwork of illogic. One of the most rural counties I know (they don't even have a grocery store!) is entirely farmland and forest, and King and Queen County disallows all centerfire rifles except 22 caliber for groundhogs (and then only for a few months). Yet Gloucester County, where I live, is much more densely populated, and allows centerfire rifles.

Allowing muzzleloading rifles was a relatively recent change, and was done at the state level. There is no dissent that has come to my attention, and I've heard no complaints at the county level about modern ML rifles and their capacity to accurately reach out to 200+ yards. I hope it stays that way.

Take care, Tom


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xausa
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91606 - 15/12/07 05:41 AM

In June, 1965, I was sitting at my desk in the Legal Office of Headquarters Battalion, Third Marine Division, at Camp Courtney, Okinawa, when Captain Bill Lederboer, CO of MP company came in and announced that he had a problem.

What kind of a problem, I asked.

He had been inventorying the riot locker (whatever that was) and had found that he had some material that was not supposed to be there.

I asked him what kind of material.

He told me they were brass, 12 gauge shotshells, loaded with 00 buckshot. He had a full case and a partial case.

I told him his problems were over and he happily turned them over to me.

A few weeks later, I was given orders to report to Headquarters IIIMEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) in DaNang, Republic of Vietnam. I started thinking about personal protection.

I took some of the shells from the open case and my 12 gauge Winchester Model 12 Skeet gun ($135.00, new, at the PX) and went over to the pistol range at Camp Smedley Butler, home of the 3rd Marine Division's infamous brig.

I obtained a torso shaped target from the NCOIC of the range and fastened it to the target frame and walked back to the 25 yard line. I loaded my Model 12 with seven of the brass shells and faced the target, shotgun at my waist.

There is a little known fact about Model 12's: they have no disconncetor. If you hold the trigger back and pump, every round which is chambered will immediately fire. I held the trigger back and pumped. When the smoke had cleared, I had sawed the target in two. Satisfied, I went back to my packing.

When I got to Vietnam, however, I became the proud owner of an M1A1 Thompson, which proved to be much handier, and accompanied me for the rest of my tour. The buckshot shells are still in my possession.

Last fall, having become the proud owned of a Greifelt drilling in caliber 12/12/8X60R, I cobbled up some loads for the rifle barrel with the obligatory .318" diameter bullets and sighted the rifle in. On the first day of the season, I was up before dawn and wending my way down a logging trail to my selected hunting spot, when motion in front of me alerted me to the fact that I was not alone.

Putting the drilling to my shoulder and peering through the scope, I caught the silhouette of a large doe about 80 yards away. I clicked off the safety, squeezed the trigger and was startled by much heavier recoil than I had expected. Opening the gun to reload, I found out why.

I had loaded the gun with a rifled slug in the left shot barrel, a 00 buck in the right barrel, and the 8X60R load in the rifle barrel. Somehow, the selector had wandered over to "shot" before I pulled the trigger. A thorough search of the area revealed no sign of blood, and I continued, chastened, on my way, feeling like the proverbial pilot who had landed with his landing gear up.

This year, both shot barrels will be loaded with Brennekes.


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Yogi000
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: xausa]
      #91616 - 15/12/07 07:39 AM

so you shot the shot barrel which was loaded with a rifled slug? Is that right? Hence is this a slugs don't penetrate doe skin post? There was no blood because the rifled slug did not work? Or was it because at 80 yards there would be so much drop?

Just trying to understand what didn't work here and why.


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DarylS
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Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: Yogi000]
      #91621 - 15/12/07 09:42 AM

I think it was a typo - 00 in the right barrel which firs first when shot barrels are selected?
: Brenneke's usually make excellent deer rounds and are quite accurate in some guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: WHO uses BUCKSHOT?? [Re: DarylS]
      #91623 - 15/12/07 10:06 AM

Sorry, brain fart. The buck shot was in the right barrel, which fired because the selector was on the shot barrel when I used the front trigger and evidently none of the 00 buck shot scored at 80 yards.

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