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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: 93x64mm]
      #371865 - 29/11/22 07:02 PM

you get it only from my cold hands

excellet size for a woman, she shoot a goose with it

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #371868 - 30/11/22 07:04 AM

I thought as much mate!
Never shot a 16 or 20guage gun, but yes better for the younger kids or ladies.
Certainly a grand way to bring home food for the pot......in style too!


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: 93x64mm]
      #371869 - 30/11/22 07:46 AM

I have the 20 ga 2,5" only in a husqvarna combination gun, think its a real step down from 12 ga when 16 ga is allways near. the new 20 ga magnum is loved by some and have replace the 16 ga in drillings now but you don't see a lot of 20 ga double guns at all.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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luv2safari
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #373668 - 31/01/23 02:07 PM

Quote:

my 1957 made Gebr. Adamy 16 ga is a good example for the east german hunting gun

typical post war suhl made double with a post war zeiss zielsechs on claw mount.this kind of shotgun reach its style before the great war and beside of the many different actions develope by local gunmaker it became more and more a standard. what happen after the war in suhl with this type of shotgun was something, imho , that would have come anyway sooner or later.

the shotgun barrels of this guns crossing at +/- 25 meter so at 50 meter you find the left slug right of the middle and the rigth slug on the left side. the scope was for shooting slugs with only one barrel where it was sighted for, most times the rigth so it was more a "combination gun" than a double barrel slug gun.
its true the suhl made double gun is different from a typical british made gun, maybe like a landrower against a racecar. the suhl double gun had to be usable from partridges up to brown bear, something that was never expectetd from a british shotgun.
it was allways possible to make combination or double rifle barrels for such shotguns so the stock is just from the start a stock for rifles.
























































Fantastic Gun! Rates a TWO COOL.

My grandson takes great pride in a well used and a bit beat up field grade Buhag/Gbr Adamy 16ga SXS that also has claw mount bases. I don't have detailed photos, but here he is with his Adamy.



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Hunt with Class and Classics


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93x64mm
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: luv2safari]
      #373674 - 31/01/23 10:29 PM

Lovely piece of kit there luv2safari!
I can see this one going to your grandson, it will be in good hand when it does!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #373693 - 01/02/23 08:42 AM

Very nice shotgun Lancaster.

Some very good and interesting posts by Kuduae and Lancaster.

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John aka NitroX

...
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #373694 - 01/02/23 08:54 AM

Interesting thread. Ive sometimes wondered about mostly fictional or semi-non-fictional movies and shows displaying Eastern European hunters, Communist Generals or Politicians hunting in drives with side by side shotguns. Shooting boar or deer.

I've wondered whether they used slugs or buckshot or both?

Any of our esteemed German colleagues or others, know if buckshot is commonly used in many Eastern European countries? Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia now Czech and Slovakia, the Yugoslavia modern or old countries etc? The Soviet countries, old and new?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #373695 - 01/02/23 09:14 AM

I'm going to give my Simson Suhl 12-bore side by side, previously mentioned, a go with Brenneckes, slugs and buck shot sizes. Have to see what I can buy. See how it performs at different ranges.

I'll take some photos of it.

It only has a bead for sights.

I'll see how BBs perform in it first. It's fox drive season for the local fox drive group. Instead of my Greener Empire 12b SS, I'll give the Simson a try.

I don't really use it now. It's my first shotgun by one or two weeks! Before the Azhur. So maybe a purpose for it. Add some sling swivels. Easy to carry long distances but only when not driving. Some guys and girls walk in a line in bush and up and down hills. In total maybe 10 to 20 km per day. Three to five days on weekends. Others stand in a blocking line. Several drives in a day. I'll probably block mainly this year. Or some easier drives walking. I've got some injury issues at the moment. The gun is plain so rougher shooting isn't a worry for it.

The tight chokes might work well for longer shots on foxes. Some shots on cardboard will tell. Also see how well I swing it on some clays with small shot. Rabbits are always good practice.

As said later add sling swivels, maybe look at some sort of rifle sights on it. Maybe a flip up rear v sight? Even bases for scope mounts? Depends on its performance.

I'd be interested in comments on how shot shotgunning performs with a blade front side versus a bead. I can probably tell myself! Using my Tikka/Valmet combination barrels which have blade front sights.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
      #373696 - 01/02/23 09:20 AM

Quote:


and often with a lot of drop?
...

As hares rarely fly, shooting at them running is most often downhill. So the guns were stocked accordingly.




Not to mention, a vast majority of German hunting is done from raised high seats/hochsitz.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Conor_90
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #373966 - 08/02/23 12:59 PM

Thanks to Lancaster for sharing.

I may have to get one of these guns while they are still cheap

I have building a poor man’s double or paradox in mind with one of these or a sidelock BRNO. Just not sure we have a smith here willing or capable of regulation for a reasonable rate


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #374010 - 09/02/23 11:45 PM

Quote:

Interesting thread. Ive sometimes wondered about mostly fictional or semi-non-fictional movies and shows displaying Eastern European hunters, Communist Generals or Politicians hunting in drives with side by side shotguns. Shooting boar or deer.

I've wondered whether they used slugs or buckshot or both?

Any of our esteemed German colleagues or others, know if buckshot is commonly used in many Eastern European countries? Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia now Czech and Slovakia, the Yugoslavia modern or old countries etc? The Soviet countries, old and new?




buckshot was not common, in germany practical banned for big game hunting since 1934 together with some kinds of steel traps. the gentleman hunter, a rough translation for Herrenjäger, see this as being unethical.
the big communist bosses had all kind of double rifles they wish to have. there was never a problem if you were siting on the tip of the food chaine.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #380746 - 30/11/23 03:33 AM

I was thinking of this thread during my recent stay in the gulag, ...oops while the forums were down.

I think it was written the East German guns were tightly choked. BUT were used mainly for shooting game on the ground. Even slugs at boar and deer.

How did this work? Tightly choked guns and use of slugs?

While the forums were down, I was being told, not to use slugs in anything but cylinder chokes. Or the most open chokes. ?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #380751 - 30/11/23 04:12 AM

no problem,W.Brennecke design his slug from the start to deal with all kind of chokes.
and this what Brennecke allways told until this day - you can use them in any barrel for the caliber.

https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/en/sh...gun-ammunition/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #380755 - 30/11/23 04:21 AM

The Benneke's had the VERY deep grooves to easily compress in chokes. The American Foster slugs and the shallower "rifling' grooves and hollow base to compress when used in choked guns.
The Fosters were also smaller than the bores of most 12 gauges. The Remingtons were the smallest, at .690", with Federal and Winchester closer to .710" to .724". Now, I haven't measured these myself. I'm just going by memory on the article I read a long time ago.
I would say, if you have a mould casting a solid slug that is bore size to your shotgun, do not use that in a choked gun.
Factory slugs, Brenneke or Fosters should be A-OK.

edited: the forum is working nicely.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by DarylS (30/11/23 04:21 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #380759 - 30/11/23 05:39 AM

Quote:

no problem,W.Brennecke design his slug from the start to deal with all kind of chokes.
and this what Brennecke allways told until this day - you can use them in any barrel for the caliber.

https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/en/sh...gun-ammunition/




Facebook users told me the Brennecke slugs were hard and could damage tight chokes.

I think I'll reply on our NE members and Lars and Axel instead. And Daryl.

Note, the discussion was also about paradox style guns, chokes, slugs as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #380767 - 30/11/23 06:38 AM

thats what brennecke says about it:



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #380771 - 30/11/23 09:22 AM

Good post, lancaster. I am not familiar with those two exceptions, the gold and sabot.
The problem is sometimes someone will question a product, like
"wouldn't hard lead Brenneke slugs be dangerous through tight full chokes"
That question is passed on in another forum, as: "tight full chokes should not be used with those hard Brenneke slugs".

3 or 4 more posts, and "slugs should be shot through any choke but cylinder bore, ie: no choke."

PLEASE don't report this as me saying it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #380790 - 30/11/23 05:15 PM

I believe you!

I remember reading all that, how slugs, brenneckes, etc can only be shot in cylinder bores. Or at "great risk!!!" very open chokes !!! I remember reading, and thinking, how different from our guys here on this NE thread.

I have to play with it still. But my Simson Suhl shotgun, DDR marked, wax a bit of a loose end. Possibly would have sold it. But this thread opened my mind to new ideas. See how it goes with larger shot for hares and foxes. It could be one my specialist fox drive shotgun. BBs to no. 4s. Try it with buck shot, SSGs and SGs. And of course suitable slugs. Probably try somevexpensivevfactory Brenneckes type shells if they are available. But preferably some sort of handloadable suitable slugs. It's only got a shotgun front bead. Perhaps fit other better sights? But probably a red dot of some sort first, preferably detachable. Definitely fit some sling swivels for ease of carrying longer distances. East European shotguns look right on a sling.

A poor man's 12-bore "rifle" idea, paradox etc. A lot depends on how well slugs shoot in it. BBs for foxes, I don't think will be a problem. Unless the chokes are too tight for my average to mediocre shotgunning skills. I don't want to miss foxes, just to have slightly longer ranges. I'll have to practice on Fox paper targets at various ranges. See where it shoots. A running fox target might be cool. But if using shot, how does one repair the target in between shooters?

Roos in thickish scrub and SSGs might be workable. Are shotguns legal? Getting on foot in range of a roo might be a challenge. Roos are very alert. Not hard for a centrefire rifle.but actually very difficult for say a bow.

An "Eastern European" shotgun slug shooting on a running boar target competition might be a cool idea. Competitors shoot at a running boar target with their shotguns and slugs.

I've probably said all this before.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #380791 - 30/11/23 05:34 PM

Daryl, the internet and in particular, social media, is full of people repeating stuff, from people repeating stuff that have read it somewhere but never done it.

We're all probably guilty of it to various degrees. I used to write it as for example "I have been told, or advised that ....". One often forgets to qualify.

I've often said a ".500 NE is a big step up from the .450 / .470 class". I've used a .500, a .577, a .600 on paper. The biggest I've used on game is my .450 NE. On buffalo, banteng, boars, scrub bulls, elephant, warthog, deer etc. But I'm pretty sure it's true and trust those who I've read who said it.

But many comments on the net are mere repetition with zero personal experience.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #380804 - 30/11/23 07:30 PM

problem with this post war suhl made double guns is the barrels are regulated to cross at +/- 25 meter with shot. otherwise they are perfect actions to made double rifle barrels for because there was only one action for double guns, combinations guns and double rifles in production.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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luv2safari
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #380814 - 01/12/23 05:32 AM

As a mostly Greman double SXS shooter this is a great thread and update.

A couple of years ago I got a drilling from Dale Nygaard and he threw in a well used but still tight Bugah/Kessler 16 SXS for my grandson. It's a basic grade gun and wonderful to shoulder and point.

It has claw scope mount bases and was obviously a dual purpose gun. I might have Lee LeBas install open sights. For our customary hunting I can't justify scoping it, however.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: luv2safari]
      #380816 - 01/12/23 05:41 AM

An extra, low rear sight mounted in the central rib might be just great, John. How the gun puts the slugs into a group, is the important thing. Mounting a red dot sight might even be better, but more difficult.
Practicing with a fox target is a great idea. It will tell you at what range you can be lethal on them with buckshot.
Back in Ontario, BB was the preferred shot for fox. I actually preferred the .264" size, from my 6.5 magnum. LOL The .22 Hornet did just fine on them as well as the .22-250. THOSE were the days of fox bounties.
The larger sizes in buckshot, over about #4 buck, might be too large in pattern, with open & loose patterns but testing is the only way to show how your gun handles them.

The typical FOSTER type slugs are still a VERY good projectile.
As far as cast slugs go, the sabot slug from Lyman is supposed to be exceptional. I have the mould, but have tested them only minimally & in a rifle barrel. The slug is about .690", 525gr. in pure lead and fits inside a 12 bore wad, typically the Red WWAA12 "field" wad which is a 1 1/4oz. shot wad in 12 bore.
Now, how that slug would handle in choked guns, I do not know, however due to it's size, hollow base and narrow driving bands, fore and aft, I assume it's safe for any choke. 12 bore typically is .690" in full choke (that's 40 points (thou) of choke). Modified is about .710" to .715".
That's about the only slug mould I am aware of in 12 bore.
There are ALWAYS round ball loads. I cast up and supplied my local friends with .682" pure lead balls (482gr.) that they loaded with 1 1/8oz. shot load data, but with a card wad and fiber on the powder, then a cloth patched round ball, then normal folded crimp. That was for moose, when they were duck hunting, as happened now and then.
There are more powerful loads for round balls (they used 690") in some of the Lyman shotshell loading manuals that I have.
Lee makes a .690" mould and they & Tanner moulds are inexpensive compared to Lyman or other makes..


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #380837 - 01/12/23 11:59 PM

if there are claw mount bases on the double gun a good craftsman can made a a feet for a red dot that fits into the rear base. its not so much work at all and give a very good 21. century shotgun sight.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #382302 - 04/02/24 02:58 AM

I want to add sling swivels to my Simson side by side shotgun.

On a shotgun they're usually permanent. Quick detachable studs might look off? An exception is the large hole old fashioned studs like on my Jeffery dr. Hooks are on the sling.

I want to have a sling. This shotgun is carried for tens of kilometres walking on drives. But a sling is not ideal for wing shooting.

Any suggestions?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #382312 - 04/02/24 09:30 AM

Wide loops and hooks to take off when needed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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