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Conor_90
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Loc: Canada
German Side by Sides and Slugs
      #371117 - 05/11/22 02:19 PM

Recently watched a video on German side by sides from before the wars. It suggested that the actions were overbuilt (dolls head bites and some other stuff I can’t remember) in order to accommodate slug hunting. The pistol grips, cheek pieces and ribs were apparently also for this “dual purpose” role. I know in this time period and earlier on in Saarland my grandfather hunted all game with a side by side and shot “ mostly rabbits and if he was lucky a deer” according to my grandmother (now in her mid 90’s).

There is a site here in Canada with a lot of (50-60’s ????) manufactured German guns: https://intersurplus.com/collections/side-by-side

Curious if these were intended for the same role? Anyone have experience shooting slugs from them and able to comment on regulation?
Any suggestions from the above?

Considering a “ poor man’s double” or ball and shot gun build on one, no trimming the barrels just adding sights. I recently moved somewhere with a shotgun season and think this would be a classy choice for deer hunting.

Guessing they were loaded with brennekes? Was buckshot used in Germany at the time? We have a couple of brands of very effective attached wad “thug slugs” similar to brennekes produced domestically. Hoping I might get lucky on regulation

Thanks


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
      #371174 - 06/11/22 07:48 PM

Can't comment on your link.

Large shot was and still is used a lot in France. Joel Dorleac recently posted an old vintage image elsewhere of a group of French hunters with a bear, boar and either a hind or? All carrying side by side shotguns. He replied to me they used shotguns and large shot.

Someone once commented that a lot of French hunters still used shotguns for drives for boar and deer. Large calibre rifles are rare.

Using your shotgun with ball or brennecke? Try it and see. I've used breneckes in a friend's semi auto shotgun in past days.

One idea regarding regulation. If you can shoot one barrel accurately or reasonably with ball or brennecke, and use SGs or SSGs in the other barrel it will work fine. . Nice to be able to use ball in both barrels of course.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #371175 - 06/11/22 07:53 PM

https://intersurplus.com/collections/side-by-side/products/simson-sxs-12ga-55

I've got a Simson Suhl side by side 12-bore like this but no cheek piece. Mine isn't vintage and I don't think this one is.

A shotgun bead suffers from shooting accuracy especially with no rear sight.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Conor_90
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #371183 - 06/11/22 10:49 PM

I think most of the German guns on there are post WW2. Apparently some of the Swedish ones are from the early 20th century. They have a few nice English guns as well.

I know in Russia hunting with shotguns is very common due to legislation. All of the Turkish boar hunting videos I have seen have hunters using shotguns as well. Not sure what they are loaded with. There is a sight here that sells molds for various attached wad Russian slugs.

A short barrelled pump action loaded with slugs is the “ bear defence” gun of choice here. Very, very rarely are they actually used. A decade of forestry work in Northern BC with many bear encounters (grizzly and black) some very close calls and I rarely carry a gun. Usually just city boys with a cheap Turkish pump full of foster slugs who couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn let alone a charging grizz

Re: sights definitely an impediment. Not sure if it’s actually the case but the video on German guns I saw suggested that they have raised ribs to assist as a sighting plane?

I used to have a huglu over under with 24 inch barrels and battue style sights. Surprisingly accurate with slugs. Easily hit pie plates from field positions with both barrels out to 75 yards. Regret selling that one

Edited by Conor_90 (06/11/22 10:51 PM)


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sharps4590
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
      #371184 - 06/11/22 11:27 PM

Several years ago when Brenneke brought back the 2 1/2 in. slugs I bought several boxes to test in my, at that time, 4 drillings. All were pre-war with the newest being from 1936 and the oldest between 1891-93 and WWI.

The Brenneke's did not regulate in any of them, which should be no surprise as all had open bore right barrels and choked left barrels. I don't remember that any shot remotely to POA at 50 yards. At 25 yds. one or two could have been used, barely, as they shot what could honestly be considered a group but, a good bit away from POA. The others threw the slugs willy-nilly.

I know of a couple gentlemen who have double guns or drillings that shoot them to fairly close POA but I don't know of any that regulate, as I would consider regulation. That certainly doesn't mean there are none out there, just that I'm ignorant of any.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: sharps4590]
      #371190 - 07/11/22 04:15 AM

Conor_90, back in the 90's, I think it was I came across a SxS 12 bore with 28" bores, both choked imp modified. The stamping on the rib was "fluid Steel". The gun made in 1902. I don't remember how I got THAT information, but that is what I recall.
I trimmed both barrels at 24", well behind the chokes, which beefed up the barrel wall thickness, then went to work on loads for round balls. I replaced the front sight with a blade and 3/8" dovetailed the rib for a V rear sight from trackofthewolf.com.
I worked up black powder loads in WW AA wads using card and fiber wads, with the cup cut from a WWAA12 trap wad. This base, cup up, held the ball (.682") in the centre of the bore. I used a folded crimp over the top.
I worked with loads to 7 drams, 190gr. & down to 5 drams, 136gr. using GOEX 2F.
I then used SR4756 powder, starting with field load data for shot, and worked up to get the same velocity as the 7 dram load, ie: 1,550fps.
I could hit a 12" wide plate at 100 meters, offhand, with a right, then a left, just about every time.
The smokeless loads produced about 1/2 the recoil of the heavy black powder load.
Lyman shotshell loading manuals have loads with other powders, for a .690" round ball. Both Lee and Lyman makes that mould & it would work just as well as the one I used.
An SR4756 load producing 1,350fps was straight out of the book for a 1 1/4 ounce shot load and one of my work mates got a moose with it, when duck hunting. Couple of the lads used to pocket a couple, just in case a moose came by while they were duck hunting.
Instead of the plastic cup wads, they used a cloth patch that would allow the patched ball to be pushed through the choke (using my .682" ball- so thin patch).
Check out www.tradeexcanada.com (Ontario) for SxS shotguns.
Just tried it and the name has changed to Frontier Outfitters. https://frontierfirearms.ca/ https://frontierfirearms.ca/firearms.html

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Conor_90
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #371191 - 07/11/22 04:58 AM

Anthony has retired, tradex inventory has been sold to intersurplus, the company I linked in the first post. I would suggest checking them out. Guns seem a little less interesting than those back in the ttc glory days, but it is also a matter of the interesting ones getting snapped up quick. It seems truenorth guns in Ottawa is getting the ones in really good shape but their prices are generally out to lunch.

Did trimming change the regulation dramatically?

Most of these guns seem to be choked in true German style: full and fuller

I have taken up duck hunting only recently having moved to SK from up north of you (if I remember right you are in pg? I was by Chetwynd and in FSJ but spent some time in the “big city” as well .

Apparently there are hogs in the area and I have seen some sign so I always have some slugs on me.

Your posts about that slug gun and in general are an inspiration for sure. I still have a few nice pieces but I’m back in school so it’s champagne tastes on a beer budget for me now…

I made an oath I wouldn’t buy anymore cheap guns a few years back. This ended up with me buying the best single shot on the market (Henry, very nice) instead of a Turk side by side or putting a bunch of cash into making a BRNO or Kraut gun a duck hunting rig. Bit of a regret when a flight of 80 snow geese flies overhead

Curious if you have tried any of the molds from these guys: www.tatvcanada.com


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kuduae
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
      #371212 - 08/11/22 07:32 AM

Quote:

It suggested that the actions were overbuilt (dolls head bites and some other stuff I can’t remember) in order to accommodate slug hunting. The pistol grips, cheek pieces and ribs were apparently also for this “dual purpose” role.
Curious if these were intended for the same role? Anyone have experience shooting slugs from them and able to comment on regulation?
Guessing they were loaded with brennekes? Was buckshot used in Germany at the time?



I am quite often asked by Americans: Why are older German shotguns stocked like rifles with pistol grips and cheekpiecces and often with a lot of drop? Why are they overchoked so tight? These questions need a somewhat lengthy explanation.
While the primary use of a British gamegun or waterfowl gun was shooting at “feathers”, flying birds above the gun, the primary German use was for shooting running hares (a relative of the American jackrabbit). As hares rarely fly, shooting at them running is most often downhill. So the guns were stocked accordingly.
Humans usually underestimate horizontal ranges, while we overestimate vertical range. I once measured the distance to a “high flying pheasant” crossing over some trees that I shot overhead to the astonishment of some fellow hunters. The trees were 18 meters high. So that pheasant was not more than 20 m away from the muzzle. On the other hand I often watched hunters opening hostilities on hares 50 m away. My grandfather, like most other hunters of his time, rated a shotgun by the range it would kill a hare. As paper hulls and felt wads were still standard, tight chokes were demanded by German hare hunters. Slugs were for emergency use only. None of these German side by sides was intentionally regulated to shoot Brenneke slugs into an useable group from both barrels.
So in west Germany a 16g side by side, tightly choked and stocked rifle style, was the standard shotgun until the 1960s. Only then, after the decline of hare population due to modern farming, such guns went out of fashion in the west.
In eastern Germany, the GDR it was a different story. As the communists mistrusted all their people, no private ownership of rifled barrels was allowed. So up to 1990 the only guns a highly reliable citizen may have been allowed to buy after years of waiting was a Suhl made double shotgun. As those were used for all hunting, they were often mounted with any available scopes and used with Brenneke type slugs, albeit being not regulated for slug use. Usually only one, the better grouping barrel was sighted in for slug use and used out to 80 m.
The use of buckshot or any other shot load on hoofed game, even the small roe deer, is outlawed in Germany for about hundred years by now, though it took decades until all hunters followed the rule. Brenneke slugs are never used as primary ammo. Just two or three slug loads are carried in a separate pocket on fur and feather hunting, just in case a boar may hide in some bushes. More often slugs are loaded into the left barrel of a drilling to serve at short range, up to 30 m, in case the rifle load fails to stop a boar.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
      #371213 - 08/11/22 04:42 PM

Thanks for a very informative and interesting post, Kuduae. Educating us on some of Germany's past and present.

My Simson Suhl SS 12g is an East German gun, marked GDR or DDR? I think GDR. It has annoying very tight chokes. I like more open chokes so I can hit things!

I hunt hares in vineyards, usually use a .222, with fragile bullets. So they break up and don't ricochet if a miss. Using a bipod good accuracy for head shots a hundred or two metres away. But my Simson SS 12g can be my shotgunning hare gun. I don't shoot hares at 50 metres. But shooting a running hare, running at a right angle is spectacular, the hare tumbling for a couple of rows. Hares will almost always flee in one direction. Then within a few rows, reverse direction to throw off pursuers. So cross in front of one for a quick shot.

I like you mentioned the East German scoped shotguns. And sighted in for one barrel. Something for double barrels I have been saying is a possibility for years. A scoped double barrel shooting one barrel accurately is equivalent to a single shot. The other barrel might be usuable at closer ranges. Or for a shotgun using slugs and buckshot absolutely fine.

Interesting the banning of large shot for game hunting in Germany. When it is commonly used in a lot of neighbouring countries I believe.

Amazing shotguns were more for hares, not birds. I must say I love hunting hares. But my shotguns are used mostly for rabbits. Then ducks, quail, pigeons, other birds.

Edited for Android mis-corrections.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (01/02/23 08:35 AM)


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Conor_90
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
      #371218 - 09/11/22 12:58 AM

Thanks for the detailed response kuduae

I guess slugs in general were designed as a “best available” option for one gun hunters. It’s my understanding that foster style slugs gained popularity during the depression in NA for meat hunters with one gun.

I take it no guns were specifically designed for use with brennekes?


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kuduae
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
      #371223 - 09/11/22 03:04 AM

Quote:

I take it no guns were specifically designed for use with brennekes?



Yes, you are right. BTW, I am writing about German shotguns and their use in general, not about any 1 in 1000 exceptions that may or may not exist. Note, even Wilhelm Brenneke’s bragging groups he used for advertising his slugs in the 1930s were not shot with one of his own make drillings or double shotguns, but with a 12g Browning A5 full choke autoloader, sights unknown.


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
      #371228 - 09/11/22 04:28 AM

Interesting history, kuduae.
Conor, I found with my double 12, that both the 1550fps loads, 7 drams BP and the smokeless load shot the barrels well regulated.
Less loads did not shoot together. I had mounted an old 2.5-8X32 mm scope on the rib for load testing.
Tks for the info on tradeexcanada & Anthony.
I've never purchased moulds from www.tatvcanada.com. Last count, I had a mix of Lyman, Lee, RCBS, Ohaus & a Saeco mould, 82 sets of blocks all together, some given to me, I have never used.
I do have Tanner moulds in .595", .677", .704", .724" and .740". I also have the 16 bore Lyman mould at .662" & the Uberti mould at .682". That one looks every bit a Lyman mould and casts really nice balls for my 14 bore ML rifle.
I made an adjustable slug mould, casting thick skirt HB .690" from 580gr. to 1,200gr. These will fit nicely inside a plastic 12 bore shot wad. Too, I have 12 bore plastic wads that hold .58 calibre slugs. Got those from Ed Huble. Haven't heard or read anything by him in a long time.
SxS are not the best for waterfowling, due to the use of non-toxic shot. Steel or tungsten shot might be good for splitting ribs from the barrels at the chokes.
Buddy of mine had an old Belgium gun he shot steel in, only the right barrel. In 5 shots, it just expanded the muzzle, but the solder held. He said it still shot good for ducks over decoys.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #371229 - 09/11/22 04:40 AM

Just "in passing", I found this one interesting.
George Gibbs .410 Single shot with side lever.
https://intersurplus.com/collections/single-shot/products/george-gibbs-single-shot-410ga

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Conor_90
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #371230 - 09/11/22 04:54 AM

Quote:

SxS are not the best for waterfowling, due to the use of non-toxic shot. Steel or tungsten shot might be good for splitting ribs from the barrels at the chokes.




Yes, boring out the chokes would certainly be in order to avoid this.

Some very tempting BRNO sidelocks on there. I heard somewhere that a guy in Ontario was building double rifles on them

Looks like they just got in a load of Webley and Scott bolt action single shot 410’s to go with that side lever

Edited by Conor_90 (09/11/22 04:59 AM)


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93x64mm
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #371233 - 09/11/22 06:57 AM

Quote:

Just "in passing", I found this one interesting.
George Gibbs .410 Single shot with side lever.
https://intersurplus.com/collections/single-shot/products/george-gibbs-single-shot-410ga




.Lovely little piece their Daryl!
Great little pigeon or rabbit gun!


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kuduae
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: 93x64mm]
      #371234 - 09/11/22 06:58 AM

According to the European CIP proof rules “steel” = non lead shot may be used in older shotguns up to 3.25 mm = #4 size only. For use with larger non-toxic shot the gun must be proofed for such use and marked by the proofhouse with a special fleur-de-lis proofmark.

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kuduae
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #371236 - 09/11/22 07:09 AM

Quote:

Just "in passing", I found this one interesting.
George Gibbs .410 Single shot with side lever.
https://intersurplus.com/collections/single-shot/products/george-gibbs-single-shot-410ga



As a blank filler in place of a rear sight is visible in one of the photos, it is certainlyy a bored - out rook and rabbit rifle. Unfortunately many of those small rifles were converted to shotguns in the UK for legal, licensing reasons and lack of ammo.


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
      #371237 - 09/11/22 07:11 AM

Connor, the BRNO sidelocks are VERY nice guns indeed.
Interesting note on shot sizes, kuduae. My friend;s gun was one of those old, twist steel barreled SxS's that came over by the barrel full. Loose action and all, but it never "let go".
He does not use it any more. This was back in the 90's, when he used to shoot ducks with it.
I have a couple .410 singles already. What might be interesting, is if it had thick enough barrel to rifle. I'm thinking of lead bullets and black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Conor_90
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #371247 - 09/11/22 02:04 PM

The rook rifle conversions would explain the bolt action 410s recently added

Fingers crossed this means they are bringing in guns from the UK as well as Sweden now. Wouldn’t mind a crack at some old English rifles


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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
      #371248 - 09/11/22 02:41 PM

I lucked out when Tony was running things. I got a Field London SxS 12 bore hammer gun. In beautiful shape with bright+ barrels - like new inside and outside.
Broke 20 birds straight with it at our local rendezvous with BP loads, no chokes.
1 1/4oz. 7 1/2's and 75gr. 1F GOEX in 2 1/2" cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Conor_90
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
      #371249 - 09/11/22 04:59 PM

He was a gem. I don’t know if anyone can take his place in terms of bringing in cool stuff at a good price. The only site where you could expect your used gun to show up in much better condition than described. Frontier and true north don’t have the same policy that’s for sure. Seem a few guns with obvious flaws not mentioned in text when you zoom in on the pictures on both sites. I’ve gotten a few boxes of bullets on intersurplus and I’m glad for their selection but they leave a bit to be desired on the customer service front.

I won’t ever forget the article he posted about taking a polar bear with a m96 9.3x57, very cool stuff


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Longknife
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
      #371860 - 29/11/22 01:32 AM

Connor, Here is an Austrian made multi-purpose shot gun,,,,,

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=339285&an=0&page=1#Post339285

--------------------
Longknife


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Longknife]
      #371861 - 29/11/22 04:53 AM

my 1957 made Gebr. Adamy 16 ga is a good example for the east german hunting gun

typical post war suhl made double with a post war zeiss zielsechs on claw mount.this kind of shotgun reach its style before the great war and beside of the many different actions develope by local gunmaker it became more and more a standard. what happen after the war in suhl with this type of shotgun was something, imho , that would have come anyway sooner or later.

the shotgun barrels of this guns crossing at +/- 25 meter so at 50 meter you find the left slug right of the middle and the rigth slug on the left side. the scope was for shooting slugs with only one barrel where it was sighted for, most times the rigth so it was more a "combination gun" than a double barrel slug gun.
its true the suhl made double gun is different from a typical british made gun, maybe like a landrower against a racecar. the suhl double gun had to be usable from partridges up to brown bear, something that was never expectetd from a british shotgun.
it was allways possible to make combination or double rifle barrels for such shotguns so the stock is just from the start a stock for rifles.





















































--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #371862 - 29/11/22 05:23 AM

a german driven hunt in south west germany in 1957, most hunters have such a typical german double gun.

https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/swr-re...ZXgvbzEyMTM5MTE

such driven hunts become very rare today because of the massive decline of the niederwild (small game - everything smaller than roedeer) because of the industrial agriculture.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
      #371863 - 29/11/22 06:55 AM

Lovely piece you have there Lancaster!
True she may not be a race car, but she'll finish any race you put her in!
That's a keeper that one.


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