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Conor_90
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Reged: 12/01/18
Posts: 45
Loc: Canada

German Side by Sides and Slugs
#371117 - 05/11/22 02:19 PM

Recently watched a video on German side by sides from before the wars. It suggested that the actions were overbuilt (dolls head bites and some other stuff I can’t remember) in order to accommodate slug hunting. The pistol grips, cheek pieces and ribs were apparently also for this “dual purpose” role. I know in this time period and earlier on in Saarland my grandfather hunted all game with a side by side and shot “ mostly rabbits and if he was lucky a deer” according to my grandmother (now in her mid 90’s).

There is a site here in Canada with a lot of (50-60’s ????) manufactured German guns: https://intersurplus.com/collections/side-by-side

Curious if these were intended for the same role? Anyone have experience shooting slugs from them and able to comment on regulation?
Any suggestions from the above?

Considering a “ poor man’s double” or ball and shot gun build on one, no trimming the barrels just adding sights. I recently moved somewhere with a shotgun season and think this would be a classy choice for deer hunting.

Guessing they were loaded with brennekes? Was buckshot used in Germany at the time? We have a couple of brands of very effective attached wad “thug slugs” similar to brennekes produced domestically. Hoping I might get lucky on regulation

Thanks

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
#371174 - 06/11/22 07:48 PM

Can't comment on your link.

Large shot was and still is used a lot in France. Joel Dorleac recently posted an old vintage image elsewhere of a group of French hunters with a bear, boar and either a hind or? All carrying side by side shotguns. He replied to me they used shotguns and large shot.

Someone once commented that a lot of French hunters still used shotguns for drives for boar and deer. Large calibre rifles are rare.

Using your shotgun with ball or brennecke? Try it and see. I've used breneckes in a friend's semi auto shotgun in past days.

One idea regarding regulation. If you can shoot one barrel accurately or reasonably with ball or brennecke, and use SGs or SSGs in the other barrel it will work fine.

. Nice to be able to use ball in both barrels of course.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroX
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#371175 - 06/11/22 07:53 PM

https://intersurplus.com/collections/side-by-side/products/simson-sxs-12ga-55

I've got a Simson Suhl side by side 12-bore like this but no cheek piece. Mine isn't vintage and I don't think this one is.

A shotgun bead suffers from shooting accuracy especially with no rear sight.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Conor_90
.224 member

Reged: 12/01/18
Posts: 45
Loc: Canada

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#371183 - 06/11/22 10:49 PM

I think most of the German guns on there are post WW2. Apparently some of the Swedish ones are from the early 20th century. They have a few nice English guns as well.

I know in Russia hunting with shotguns is very common due to legislation. All of the Turkish boar hunting videos I have seen have hunters using shotguns as well. Not sure what they are loaded with. There is a sight here that sells molds for various attached wad Russian slugs.

A short barrelled pump action loaded with slugs is the “ bear defence” gun of choice here. Very, very rarely are they actually used. A decade of forestry work in Northern BC with many bear encounters (grizzly and black) some very close calls and I rarely carry a gun. Usually just city boys with a cheap Turkish pump full of foster slugs who couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn let alone a charging grizz

Re: sights definitely an impediment. Not sure if it’s actually the case but the video on German guns I saw suggested that they have raised ribs to assist as a sighting plane?

I used to have a huglu over under with 24 inch barrels and battue style sights. Surprisingly accurate with slugs. Easily hit pie plates from field positions with both barrels out to 75 yards. Regret selling that one

Edited by Conor_90 (06/11/22 10:51 PM)

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sharps4590
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Posts: 250
Loc: Missouri Ozarks

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
#371184 - 06/11/22 11:27 PM

Several years ago when Brenneke brought back the 2 1/2 in. slugs I bought several boxes to test in my, at that time, 4 drillings. All were pre-war with the newest being from 1936 and the oldest between 1891-93 and WWI.

The Brenneke's did not regulate in any of them, which should be no surprise as all had open bore right barrels and choked left barrels. I don't remember that any shot remotely to POA at 50 yards. At 25 yds. one or two could have been used, barely, as they shot what could honestly be considered a group but, a good bit away from POA. The others threw the slugs willy-nilly.

I know of a couple gentlemen who have double guns or drillings that shoot them to fairly close POA but I don't know of any that regulate, as I would consider regulation. That certainly doesn't mean there are none out there, just that I'm ignorant of any.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: sharps4590]
#371190 - 07/11/22 04:15 AM

Conor_90, back in the 90's, I think it was I came across a SxS 12 bore with 28" bores, both choked imp modified. The stamping on the rib was "fluid Steel". The gun made in 1902. I don't remember how I got THAT information, but that is what I recall.
I trimmed both barrels at 24", well behind the chokes, which beefed up the barrel wall thickness, then went to work on loads for round balls. I replaced the front sight with a blade and 3/8" dovetailed the rib for a V rear sight from trackofthewolf.com.
I worked up black powder loads in WW AA wads using card and fiber wads, with the cup cut from a WWAA12 trap wad. This base, cup up, held the ball (.682") in the centre of the bore. I used a folded crimp over the top.
I worked with loads to 7 drams, 190gr. & down to 5 drams, 136gr. using GOEX 2F.
I then used SR4756 powder, starting with field load data for shot, and worked up to get the same velocity as the 7 dram load, ie: 1,550fps.
I could hit a 12" wide plate at 100 meters, offhand, with a right, then a left, just about every time.
The smokeless loads produced about 1/2 the recoil of the heavy black powder load.
Lyman shotshell loading manuals have loads with other powders, for a .690" round ball. Both Lee and Lyman makes that mould & it would work just as well as the one I used.
An SR4756 load producing 1,350fps was straight out of the book for a 1 1/4 ounce shot load and one of my work mates got a moose with it, when duck hunting. Couple of the lads used to pocket a couple, just in case a moose came by while they were duck hunting.
Instead of the plastic cup wads, they used a cloth patch that would allow the patched ball to be pushed through the choke (using my .682" ball- so thin patch).
Check out www.tradeexcanada.com (Ontario) for SxS shotguns.
Just tried it and the name has changed to Frontier Outfitters. https://frontierfirearms.ca/ https://frontierfirearms.ca/firearms.html

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Conor_90
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Reged: 12/01/18
Posts: 45
Loc: Canada

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#371191 - 07/11/22 04:58 AM

Anthony has retired, tradex inventory has been sold to intersurplus, the company I linked in the first post. I would suggest checking them out. Guns seem a little less interesting than those back in the ttc glory days, but it is also a matter of the interesting ones getting snapped up quick. It seems truenorth guns in Ottawa is getting the ones in really good shape but their prices are generally out to lunch.

Did trimming change the regulation dramatically?

Most of these guns seem to be choked in true German style: full and fuller

I have taken up duck hunting only recently having moved to SK from up north of you (if I remember right you are in pg? I was by Chetwynd and in FSJ but spent some time in the “big city” as well

.

Apparently there are hogs in the area and I have seen some sign so I always have some slugs on me.

Your posts about that slug gun and in general are an inspiration for sure. I still have a few nice pieces but I’m back in school so it’s champagne tastes on a beer budget for me now…

I made an oath I wouldn’t buy anymore cheap guns a few years back. This ended up with me buying the best single shot on the market (Henry, very nice) instead of a Turk side by side or putting a bunch of cash into making a BRNO or Kraut gun a duck hunting rig. Bit of a regret when a flight of 80 snow geese flies overhead

Curious if you have tried any of the molds from these guys: www.tatvcanada.com

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
#371212 - 08/11/22 07:32 AM

Quote:

It suggested that the actions were overbuilt (dolls head bites and some other stuff I can’t remember) in order to accommodate slug hunting. The pistol grips, cheek pieces and ribs were apparently also for this “dual purpose” role.
Curious if these were intended for the same role? Anyone have experience shooting slugs from them and able to comment on regulation?
Guessing they were loaded with brennekes? Was buckshot used in Germany at the time?

I am quite often asked by Americans: Why are older German shotguns stocked like rifles with pistol grips and cheekpiecces and often with a lot of drop? Why are they overchoked so tight? These questions need a somewhat lengthy explanation.
While the primary use of a British gamegun or waterfowl gun was shooting at “feathers”, flying birds above the gun, the primary German use was for shooting running hares (a relative of the American jackrabbit). As hares rarely fly, shooting at them running is most often downhill. So the guns were stocked accordingly.
Humans usually underestimate horizontal ranges, while we overestimate vertical range. I once measured the distance to a “high flying pheasant” crossing over some trees that I shot overhead to the astonishment of some fellow hunters. The trees were 18 meters high. So that pheasant was not more than 20 m away from the muzzle. On the other hand I often watched hunters opening hostilities on hares 50 m away. My grandfather, like most other hunters of his time, rated a shotgun by the range it would kill a hare. As paper hulls and felt wads were still standard, tight chokes were demanded by German hare hunters. Slugs were for emergency use only. None of these German side by sides was intentionally regulated to shoot Brenneke slugs into an useable group from both barrels.
So in west Germany a 16g side by side, tightly choked and stocked rifle style, was the standard shotgun until the 1960s. Only then, after the decline of hare population due to modern farming, such guns went out of fashion in the west.
In eastern Germany, the GDR it was a different story. As the communists mistrusted all their people, no private ownership of rifled barrels was allowed. So up to 1990 the only guns a highly reliable citizen may have been allowed to buy after years of waiting was a Suhl made double shotgun. As those were used for all hunting, they were often mounted with any available scopes and used with Brenneke type slugs, albeit being not regulated for slug use. Usually only one, the better grouping barrel was sighted in for slug use and used out to 80 m.
The use of buckshot or any other shot load on hoofed game, even the small roe deer, is outlawed in Germany for about hundred years by now, though it took decades until all hunters followed the rule. Brenneke slugs are never used as primary ammo. Just two or three slug loads are carried in a separate pocket on fur and feather hunting, just in case a boar may hide in some bushes. More often slugs are loaded into the left barrel of a drilling to serve at short range, up to 30 m, in case the rifle load fails to stop a boar.

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NitroX
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
#371213 - 08/11/22 04:42 PM

Thanks for a very informative and interesting post, Kuduae. Educating us on some of Germany's past and present.

My Simson Suhl SS 12g is an East German gun, marked GDR or DDR? I think GDR. It has annoying very tight chokes. I like more open chokes so I can hit things!

I hunt hares in vineyards, usually use a .222, with fragile bullets. So they break up and don't ricochet if a miss. Using a bipod good accuracy for head shots a hundred or two metres away. But my Simson SS 12g can be my shotgunning hare gun. I don't shoot hares at 50 metres. But shooting a running hare, running at a right angle is spectacular, the hare tumbling for a couple of rows. Hares will almost always flee in one direction. Then within a few rows, reverse direction to throw off pursuers. So cross in front of one for a quick shot.

I like you mentioned the East German scoped shotguns. And sighted in for one barrel. Something for double barrels I have been saying is a possibility for years. A scoped double barrel shooting one barrel accurately is equivalent to a single shot. The other barrel might be usuable at closer ranges. Or for a shotgun using slugs and buckshot absolutely fine.

Interesting the banning of large shot for game hunting in Germany. When it is commonly used in a lot of neighbouring countries I believe.

Amazing shotguns were more for hares, not birds. I must say I love hunting hares. But my shotguns are used mostly for rabbits. Then ducks, quail, pigeons, other birds.

Edited for Android mis-corrections.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (01/02/23 08:35 AM)

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Conor_90
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Reged: 12/01/18
Posts: 45
Loc: Canada

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#371218 - 09/11/22 12:58 AM

Thanks for the detailed response kuduae

I guess slugs in general were designed as a “best available” option for one gun hunters. It’s my understanding that foster style slugs gained popularity during the depression in NA for meat hunters with one gun.

I take it no guns were specifically designed for use with brennekes?

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
#371223 - 09/11/22 03:04 AM

Quote:

I take it no guns were specifically designed for use with brennekes?

Yes, you are right. BTW, I am writing about German shotguns and their use in general, not about any 1 in 1000 exceptions that may or may not exist. Note, even Wilhelm Brenneke’s bragging groups he used for advertising his slugs in the 1930s were not shot with one of his own make drillings or double shotguns, but with a 12g Browning A5 full choke autoloader, sights unknown.

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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
#371228 - 09/11/22 04:28 AM

Interesting history, kuduae.
Conor, I found with my double 12, that both the 1550fps loads, 7 drams BP and the smokeless load shot the barrels well regulated.
Less loads did not shoot together. I had mounted an old 2.5-8X32 mm scope on the rib for load testing.
Tks for the info on tradeexcanada & Anthony.
I've never purchased moulds from www.tatvcanada.com. Last count, I had a mix of Lyman, Lee, RCBS, Ohaus & a Saeco mould, 82 sets of blocks all together, some given to me, I have never used.
I do have Tanner moulds in .595", .677", .704", .724" and .740". I also have the 16 bore Lyman mould at .662" & the Uberti mould at .682". That one looks every bit a Lyman mould and casts really nice balls for my 14 bore ML rifle.
I made an adjustable slug mould, casting thick skirt HB .690" from 580gr. to 1,200gr. These will fit nicely inside a plastic 12 bore shot wad. Too, I have 12 bore plastic wads that hold .58 calibre slugs. Got those from Ed Huble. Haven't heard or read anything by him in a long time.
SxS are not the best for waterfowling, due to the use of non-toxic shot. Steel or tungsten shot might be good for splitting ribs from the barrels at the chokes.
Buddy of mine had an old Belgium gun he shot steel in, only the right barrel. In 5 shots, it just expanded the muzzle, but the solder held. He said it still shot good for ducks over decoys.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#371229 - 09/11/22 04:40 AM

Just "in passing", I found this one interesting.
George Gibbs .410 Single shot with side lever.
https://intersurplus.com/collections/single-shot/products/george-gibbs-single-shot-410ga

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Conor_90
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Posts: 45
Loc: Canada

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#371230 - 09/11/22 04:54 AM

Quote:

SxS are not the best for waterfowling, due to the use of non-toxic shot. Steel or tungsten shot might be good for splitting ribs from the barrels at the chokes.

Yes, boring out the chokes would certainly be in order to avoid this.

Some very tempting BRNO sidelocks on there. I heard somewhere that a guy in Ontario was building double rifles on them

Looks like they just got in a load of Webley and Scott bolt action single shot 410’s to go with that side lever

Edited by Conor_90 (09/11/22 04:59 AM)

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93x64mm
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Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#371233 - 09/11/22 06:57 AM

Quote:

Just "in passing", I found this one interesting.
George Gibbs .410 Single shot with side lever.
https://intersurplus.com/collections/single-shot/products/george-gibbs-single-shot-410ga

.Lovely little piece their Daryl!
Great little pigeon or rabbit gun!

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: 93x64mm]
#371234 - 09/11/22 06:58 AM

According to the European CIP proof rules “steel” = non lead shot may be used in older shotguns up to 3.25 mm = #4 size only. For use with larger non-toxic shot the gun must be proofed for such use and marked by the proofhouse with a special fleur-de-lis proofmark.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#371236 - 09/11/22 07:09 AM

Quote:

Just "in passing", I found this one interesting.
George Gibbs .410 Single shot with side lever.
https://intersurplus.com/collections/single-shot/products/george-gibbs-single-shot-410ga

As a blank filler in place of a rear sight is visible in one of the photos, it is certainlyy a bored - out rook and rabbit rifle. Unfortunately many of those small rifles were converted to shotguns in the UK for legal, licensing reasons and lack of ammo.

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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
#371237 - 09/11/22 07:11 AM

Connor, the BRNO sidelocks are VERY nice guns indeed.
Interesting note on shot sizes, kuduae. My friend;s gun was one of those old, twist steel barreled SxS's that came over by the barrel full. Loose action and all, but it never "let go".
He does not use it any more. This was back in the 90's, when he used to shoot ducks with it.
I have a couple .410 singles already. What might be interesting, is if it had thick enough barrel to rifle. I'm thinking of lead bullets and black powder.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Conor_90
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Posts: 45
Loc: Canada

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#371247 - 09/11/22 02:04 PM

The rook rifle conversions would explain the bolt action 410s recently added

Fingers crossed this means they are bringing in guns from the UK as well as Sweden now. Wouldn’t mind a crack at some old English rifles

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DarylS
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
#371248 - 09/11/22 02:41 PM

I lucked out when Tony was running things. I got a Field London SxS 12 bore hammer gun. In beautiful shape with bright+ barrels - like new inside and outside.
Broke 20 birds straight with it at our local rendezvous with BP loads, no chokes.
1 1/4oz. 7 1/2's and 75gr. 1F GOEX in 2 1/2" cases.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Conor_90
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Posts: 45
Loc: Canada

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#371249 - 09/11/22 04:59 PM

He was a gem. I don’t know if anyone can take his place in terms of bringing in cool stuff at a good price. The only site where you could expect your used gun to show up in much better condition than described. Frontier and true north don’t have the same policy that’s for sure. Seem a few guns with obvious flaws not mentioned in text when you zoom in on the pictures on both sites. I’ve gotten a few boxes of bullets on intersurplus and I’m glad for their selection but they leave a bit to be desired on the customer service front.

I won’t ever forget the article he posted about taking a polar bear with a m96 9.3x57, very cool stuff

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Longknife
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Conor_90]
#371860 - 29/11/22 01:32 AM

Connor, Here is an Austrian made multi-purpose shot gun,,,,,

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=339285&an=0&page=1#Post339285

--------------------
Longknife

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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: Longknife]
#371861 - 29/11/22 04:53 AM

my 1957 made Gebr. Adamy 16 ga is a good example for the east german hunting gun

typical post war suhl made double with a post war zeiss zielsechs on claw mount.this kind of shotgun reach its style before the great war and beside of the many different actions develope by local gunmaker it became more and more a standard. what happen after the war in suhl with this type of shotgun was something, imho , that would have come anyway sooner or later.

the shotgun barrels of this guns crossing at +/- 25 meter so at 50 meter you find the left slug right of the middle and the rigth slug on the left side. the scope was for shooting slugs with only one barrel where it was sighted for, most times the rigth so it was more a "combination gun" than a double barrel slug gun.
its true the suhl made double gun is different from a typical british made gun, maybe like a landrower against a racecar. the suhl double gun had to be usable from partridges up to brown bear, something that was never expectetd from a british shotgun.
it was allways possible to make combination or double rifle barrels for such shotguns so the stock is just from the start a stock for rifles.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#371862 - 29/11/22 05:23 AM

a german driven hunt in south west germany in 1957, most hunters have such a typical german double gun.

https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/swr-re...ZXgvbzEyMTM5MTE

such driven hunts become very rare today because of the massive decline of the niederwild (small game - everything smaller than roedeer) because of the industrial agriculture.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#371863 - 29/11/22 06:55 AM

Lovely piece you have there Lancaster!
True she may not be a race car, but she'll finish any race you put her in!
That's a keeper that one.

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: 93x64mm]
#371865 - 29/11/22 07:02 PM

you get it only from my cold hands

excellet size for a woman, she shoot a goose with it

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
.416 member

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Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#371868 - 30/11/22 07:04 AM

I thought as much mate!
Never shot a 16 or 20guage gun, but yes better for the younger kids or ladies.
Certainly a grand way to bring home food for the pot......in style too!

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lancaster
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: 93x64mm]
#371869 - 30/11/22 07:46 AM

I have the 20 ga 2,5" only in a husqvarna combination gun, think its a real step down from 12 ga when 16 ga is allways near. the new 20 ga magnum is loved by some and have replace the 16 ga in drillings now but you don't see a lot of 20 ga double guns at all.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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luv2safari
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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#373668 - 31/01/23 02:07 PM

Quote:

my 1957 made Gebr. Adamy 16 ga is a good example for the east german hunting gun

typical post war suhl made double with a post war zeiss zielsechs on claw mount.this kind of shotgun reach its style before the great war and beside of the many different actions develope by local gunmaker it became more and more a standard. what happen after the war in suhl with this type of shotgun was something, imho , that would have come anyway sooner or later.

the shotgun barrels of this guns crossing at +/- 25 meter so at 50 meter you find the left slug right of the middle and the rigth slug on the left side. the scope was for shooting slugs with only one barrel where it was sighted for, most times the rigth so it was more a "combination gun" than a double barrel slug gun.
its true the suhl made double gun is different from a typical british made gun, maybe like a landrower against a racecar. the suhl double gun had to be usable from partridges up to brown bear, something that was never expectetd from a british shotgun.
it was allways possible to make combination or double rifle barrels for such shotguns so the stock is just from the start a stock for rifles.

Fantastic Gun!

Rates a TWO COOL.

My grandson takes great pride in a well used and a bit beat up field grade Buhag/Gbr Adamy 16ga SXS that also has claw mount bases. I don't have detailed photos, but here he is with his Adamy.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: luv2safari]
#373674 - 31/01/23 10:29 PM

Lovely piece of kit there luv2safari!
I can see this one going to your grandson, it will be in good hand when it does!

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#373693 - 01/02/23 08:42 AM

Very nice shotgun Lancaster.

Some very good and interesting posts by Kuduae and Lancaster.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#373694 - 01/02/23 08:54 AM

Interesting thread. Ive sometimes wondered about mostly fictional or semi-non-fictional movies and shows displaying Eastern European hunters, Communist Generals or Politicians hunting in drives with side by side shotguns. Shooting boar or deer.

I've wondered whether they used slugs or buckshot or both?

Any of our esteemed German colleagues or others, know if buckshot is commonly used in many Eastern European countries? Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia now Czech and Slovakia, the Yugoslavia modern or old countries etc? The Soviet countries, old and new?

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#373695 - 01/02/23 09:14 AM

I'm going to give my Simson Suhl 12-bore side by side, previously mentioned, a go with Brenneckes, slugs and buck shot sizes. Have to see what I can buy. See how it performs at different ranges.

I'll take some photos of it.

It only has a bead for sights.

I'll see how BBs perform in it first. It's fox drive season for the local fox drive group. Instead of my Greener Empire 12b SS, I'll give the Simson a try.

I don't really use it now. It's my first shotgun by one or two weeks! Before the Azhur. So maybe a purpose for it. Add some sling swivels. Easy to carry long distances but only when not driving. Some guys and girls walk in a line in bush and up and down hills. In total maybe 10 to 20 km per day. Three to five days on weekends. Others stand in a blocking line. Several drives in a day. I'll probably block mainly this year. Or some easier drives walking. I've got some injury issues at the moment. The gun is plain so rougher shooting isn't a worry for it.

The tight chokes might work well for longer shots on foxes. Some shots on cardboard will tell. Also see how well I swing it on some clays with small shot. Rabbits are always good practice.

As said later add sling swivels, maybe look at some sort of rifle sights on it. Maybe a flip up rear v sight? Even bases for scope mounts? Depends on its performance.

I'd be interested in comments on how shot shotgunning performs with a blade front side versus a bead. I can probably tell myself! Using my Tikka/Valmet combination barrels which have blade front sights.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: kuduae]
#373696 - 01/02/23 09:20 AM

Quote:

and often with a lot of drop?
...

As hares rarely fly, shooting at them running is most often downhill. So the guns were stocked accordingly.

Not to mention, a vast majority of German hunting is done from raised high seats/hochsitz.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#373966 - 08/02/23 12:59 PM

Thanks to Lancaster for sharing.

I may have to get one of these guns while they are still cheap

I have building a poor man’s double or paradox in mind with one of these or a sidelock BRNO. Just not sure we have a smith here willing or capable of regulation for a reasonable rate

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#374010 - 09/02/23 11:45 PM

Quote:

Interesting thread. Ive sometimes wondered about mostly fictional or semi-non-fictional movies and shows displaying Eastern European hunters, Communist Generals or Politicians hunting in drives with side by side shotguns. Shooting boar or deer.

I've wondered whether they used slugs or buckshot or both?

Any of our esteemed German colleagues or others, know if buckshot is commonly used in many Eastern European countries? Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia now Czech and Slovakia, the Yugoslavia modern or old countries etc? The Soviet countries, old and new?

buckshot was not common, in germany practical banned for big game hunting since 1934 together with some kinds of steel traps. the gentleman hunter, a rough translation for Herrenjäger, see this as being unethical.
the big communist bosses had all kind of double rifles they wish to have. there was never a problem if you were siting on the tip of the food chaine.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#380746 - 30/11/23 03:33 AM

I was thinking of this thread during my recent stay in the gulag, ...oops while the forums were down.

I think it was written the East German guns were tightly choked. BUT were used mainly for shooting game on the ground. Even slugs at boar and deer.

How did this work? Tightly choked guns and use of slugs?

While the forums were down, I was being told, not to use slugs in anything but cylinder chokes. Or the most open chokes. ?

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#380751 - 30/11/23 04:12 AM

no problem,W.Brennecke design his slug from the start to deal with all kind of chokes.
and this what Brennecke allways told until this day - you can use them in any barrel for the caliber.

https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/en/sh...gun-ammunition/

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#380755 - 30/11/23 04:21 AM

The Benneke's had the VERY deep grooves to easily compress in chokes. The American Foster slugs and the shallower "rifling' grooves and hollow base to compress when used in choked guns.
The Fosters were also smaller than the bores of most 12 gauges. The Remingtons were the smallest, at .690", with Federal and Winchester closer to .710" to .724". Now, I haven't measured these myself. I'm just going by memory on the article I read a long time ago.
I would say, if you have a mould casting a solid slug that is bore size to your shotgun, do not use that in a choked gun.
Factory slugs, Brenneke or Fosters should be A-OK.

edited: the forum is working nicely.

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Edited by DarylS (30/11/23 04:21 AM)

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#380759 - 30/11/23 05:39 AM

Quote:

no problem,W.Brennecke design his slug from the start to deal with all kind of chokes.
and this what Brennecke allways told until this day - you can use them in any barrel for the caliber.

https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/en/sh...gun-ammunition/

Facebook users told me the Brennecke slugs were hard and could damage tight chokes.

I think I'll reply on our NE members and Lars and Axel instead. And Daryl.

Note, the discussion was also about paradox style guns, chokes, slugs as well.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#380767 - 30/11/23 06:38 AM

thats what brennecke says about it:

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#380771 - 30/11/23 09:22 AM

Good post, lancaster. I am not familiar with those two exceptions, the gold and sabot.
The problem is sometimes someone will question a product, like
"wouldn't hard lead Brenneke slugs be dangerous through tight full chokes"
That question is passed on in another forum, as: "tight full chokes should not be used with those hard Brenneke slugs".

3 or 4 more posts, and "slugs should be shot through any choke but cylinder bore, ie: no choke."

PLEASE don't report this as me saying it.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#380790 - 30/11/23 05:15 PM

I believe you!

I remember reading all that, how slugs, brenneckes, etc can only be shot in cylinder bores. Or at "great risk!!!" very open chokes !!! I remember reading, and thinking, how different from our guys here on this NE thread.

I have to play with it still. But my Simson Suhl shotgun, DDR marked, wax a bit of a loose end. Possibly would have sold it. But this thread opened my mind to new ideas. See how it goes with larger shot for hares and foxes. It could be one my specialist fox drive shotgun. BBs to no. 4s. Try it with buck shot, SSGs and SGs. And of course suitable slugs. Probably try somevexpensivevfactory Brenneckes type shells if they are available. But preferably some sort of handloadable suitable slugs. It's only got a shotgun front bead. Perhaps fit other better sights? But probably a red dot of some sort first, preferably detachable. Definitely fit some sling swivels for ease of carrying longer distances. East European shotguns look right on a sling.

A poor man's 12-bore "rifle" idea, paradox etc. A lot depends on how well slugs shoot in it. BBs for foxes, I don't think will be a problem. Unless the chokes are too tight for my average to mediocre shotgunning skills. I don't want to miss foxes, just to have slightly longer ranges. I'll have to practice on Fox paper targets at various ranges. See where it shoots. A running fox target might be cool. But if using shot, how does one repair the target in between shooters?

Roos in thickish scrub and SSGs might be workable. Are shotguns legal? Getting on foot in range of a roo might be a challenge. Roos are very alert. Not hard for a centrefire rifle.but actually very difficult for say a bow.

An "Eastern European" shotgun slug shooting on a running boar target competition might be a cool idea. Competitors shoot at a running boar target with their shotguns and slugs.

I've probably said all this before.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#380791 - 30/11/23 05:34 PM

Daryl, the internet and in particular, social media, is full of people repeating stuff, from people repeating stuff that have read it somewhere but never done it.

We're all probably guilty of it to various degrees. I used to write it as for example "I have been told, or advised that ....". One often forgets to qualify.

I've often said a ".500 NE is a big step up from the .450 / .470 class". I've used a .500, a .577, a .600 on paper. The biggest I've used on game is my .450 NE. On buffalo, banteng, boars, scrub bulls, elephant, warthog, deer etc. But I'm pretty sure it's true and trust those who I've read who said it.

But many comments on the net are mere repetition with zero personal experience.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#380804 - 30/11/23 07:30 PM

problem with this post war suhl made double guns is the barrels are regulated to cross at +/- 25 meter with shot. otherwise they are perfect actions to made double rifle barrels for because there was only one action for double guns, combinations guns and double rifles in production.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#380814 - 01/12/23 05:32 AM

As a mostly Greman double SXS shooter this is a great thread and update.

A couple of years ago I got a drilling from Dale Nygaard and he threw in a well used but still tight Bugah/Kessler 16 SXS for my grandson. It's a basic grade gun and wonderful to shoulder and point.

It has claw scope mount bases and was obviously a dual purpose gun. I might have Lee LeBas install open sights. For our customary hunting I can't justify scoping it, however.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: luv2safari]
#380816 - 01/12/23 05:41 AM

An extra, low rear sight mounted in the central rib might be just great, John. How the gun puts the slugs into a group, is the important thing. Mounting a red dot sight might even be better, but more difficult.
Practicing with a fox target is a great idea. It will tell you at what range you can be lethal on them with buckshot.
Back in Ontario, BB was the preferred shot for fox. I actually preferred the .264" size, from my 6.5 magnum. LOL The .22 Hornet did just fine on them as well as the .22-250. THOSE were the days of fox bounties.
The larger sizes in buckshot, over about #4 buck, might be too large in pattern, with open & loose patterns but testing is the only way to show how your gun handles them.

The typical FOSTER type slugs are still a VERY good projectile.
As far as cast slugs go, the sabot slug from Lyman is supposed to be exceptional. I have the mould, but have tested them only minimally & in a rifle barrel. The slug is about .690", 525gr. in pure lead and fits inside a 12 bore wad, typically the Red WWAA12 "field" wad which is a 1 1/4oz. shot wad in 12 bore.
Now, how that slug would handle in choked guns, I do not know, however due to it's size, hollow base and narrow driving bands, fore and aft, I assume it's safe for any choke. 12 bore typically is .690" in full choke (that's 40 points (thou) of choke). Modified is about .710" to .715".
That's about the only slug mould I am aware of in 12 bore.
There are ALWAYS round ball loads. I cast up and supplied my local friends with .682" pure lead balls (482gr.) that they loaded with 1 1/8oz. shot load data, but with a card wad and fiber on the powder, then a cloth patched round ball, then normal folded crimp. That was for moose, when they were duck hunting, as happened now and then.
There are more powerful loads for round balls (they used 690") in some of the Lyman shotshell loading manuals that I have.
Lee makes a .690" mould and they & Tanner moulds are inexpensive compared to Lyman or other makes..

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#380837 - 01/12/23 11:59 PM

if there are claw mount bases on the double gun a good craftsman can made a a feet for a red dot that fits into the rear base. its not so much work at all and give a very good 21. century shotgun sight.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: lancaster]
#382302 - 04/02/24 02:58 AM

I want to add sling swivels to my Simson side by side shotgun.

On a shotgun they're usually permanent. Quick detachable studs might look off? An exception is the large hole old fashioned studs like on my Jeffery dr. Hooks are on the sling.

I want to have a sling. This shotgun is carried for tens of kilometres walking on drives. But a sling is not ideal for wing shooting.

Any suggestions?

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#382312 - 04/02/24 09:30 AM

Wide loops and hooks to take off when needed.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#382318 - 04/02/24 05:33 PM

Quote:

Wide loops and hooks to take off when needed.

Is there a website where they can be purchased? Links, images?

I bought sling hooks from Jeff's Outfitters, but I think they are no longer in business?

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#382327 - 05/02/24 12:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Wide loops and hooks to take off when needed.

Is there a website where they can be purchased? Links, images?

I bought sling hooks from Jeff's Outfitters, but I think they are no longer in business?

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#382329 - 05/02/24 03:56 AM

I do not know where they might be available, John. Someone here found and bought some, a few(maybe 5 or 6?) years back. I think it was in a thread specifically about those loops.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#382336 - 05/02/24 09:18 AM

Slings for sxs or o/u shotguns are often of the style with a noose that fits over the barrels, or in the case of many shotguns or rifle/shotgun combination guns, an attachment for a swivel is brazed to the sxs centre rib or o/u bottom barrel.

I don't know that I would trust a sling attached to a stud on the forend. A good jolt could overcome the forend latch allowing the sling to pull the forend free and the gun hitting the deck. Some shotguns just have the forend clipped on which required a pull on the nose of the forend to free it when dismantling the gun.

Problem with the noose type sling is that the bluing will be worn off over time where the sling wraps around the barrel.

I've often thought of putting a sling on my Miroku O/U gun but resisted the urge due to reason given above. I have a sling on my semi but is a plain light 1" sling with a sliding buckle. Slide to fully tighten the sling when shooting with the semi then loosen off for carrying. Hate slings flip flopping under the gun when shooting. Use the same sling on my rifles too for the same reason.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: eagle27]
#382340 - 05/02/24 02:33 PM

Quote:

Slings for sxs or o/u shotguns are often of the style with a noose that fits over the barrels, ...

I don't like these "noose" slings. A sling over the barrels is also in the way.

Would work if carrying the gun a long way. Then completely removing the sling for shooting. But not for carrying slung then unshouldering for a shot

Quote:

or in the case of many shotguns or rifle/shotgun combination guns, an attachment for a swivel is brazed to the sxs centre rib or o/u bottom barrel.

Yes. It's normally a fixed swivel. The reason I am asking about "studs" which look right.

Quote:

I don't know that I would trust a sling attached to a stud on the forend.

A stud on the forend is obviously stupid as it will be under the hand. And as you say, pull the forend off.

Quote:

I've often thought of putting a sling on my Miroku O/U gun

Easy. Barrel band with stud on the bottom barrel.

I'll probably get my Tikka/Valmet so modified one day.it has a stud in the butt stock I think. Have to look.

On a side by side, one of those vintage style large hole ball studs would look fine on a SS. Got to find who sells them.

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Edited by NitroX (05/02/24 05:07 PM)

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#382349 - 05/02/24 06:35 PM

This was a one off sale of Henry or Winchester rifle hook and large hole studs. Both for wooden stocks (?). One could be modified for the bottom of a SS rib.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#384143 - 14/04/24 01:37 AM

Quote:

I'm going to give my Simson Suhl 12-bore side by side, previously mentioned, a go with Brenneckes, slugs and buck shot sizes. Have to see what I can buy. See how it performs at different ranges.

I'll take some photos of it.

It only has a bead for sights.

I'll see how BBs perform in it first. It's fox drive season for the local fox drive group. Instead of my Greener Empire 12b SS, I'll give the Simson a try.

I don't really use it now. It's my first shotgun by one or two weeks! Before the Azhur. So maybe a purpose for it. Add some sling swivels. Easy to carry long distances but only when not driving. Some guys and girls walk in a line in bush and up and down hills. In total maybe 10 to 20 km per day. Three to five days on weekends. Others stand in a blocking line. Several drives in a day. I'll probably block mainly this year. Or some easier drives walking. I've got some injury issues at the moment. The gun is plain so rougher shooting isn't a worry for it.

The tight chokes might work well for longer shots on foxes. Some shots on cardboard will tell. Also see how well I swing it on some clays with small shot. Rabbits are always good practice.

As said later add sling swivels, maybe look at some sort of rifle sights on it. Maybe a flip up rear v sight? Even bases for scope mounts? Depends on its performance.

I'd be interested in comments on how shot shotgunning performs with a blade front side versus a bead. I can probably tell myself! Using my Tikka/Valmet combination barrels which have blade front sights.

Copied to here:

My fox cull shooting apparatus. A Simson Suhl side by side 12-bore, with tight chokes. A plain working gun. Using 36 GM loads of BBs.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: NitroX]
#384149 - 14/04/24 03:19 AM

That should work.

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: DarylS]
#384157 - 14/04/24 07:16 AM

Not wrong there Daryl!!

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Re: German Side by Sides and Slugs [Re: 93x64mm]
#384161 - 14/04/24 08:22 AM

Just over 1.25 ounces of BB's. Seems to me, iirc, there are 50 BB's in an ounce, so 63 BB's in your load or thereabouts.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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