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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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577Tyrannosaur
.224 member


Reged: 22/04/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Saint Louis, MO
The Perfect Bolt Action
      #58275 - 04/06/06 12:49 PM

Hello all,

Many of you have seem my posts dealing with Winchester and the related websites www.SaveWinchester.com and the www.WinchesterForSale.com website.

What I'd like to ask everyone now is what features do they want to see on a new bolt action, a perfected bolt action. Before you start typing away on a response, let me explain to you why I'm asking.

During one of the early conversations with the executives at USRAC and several other industry execs some one of them made the comment. There is no new Winchester that could be made that the market would accept. Needless to say I disagree. I've already designed 3 new models, however, I know its the small items that really make or break a rifle. Where a safety is or isn't, where the mag release is, if it has a box mag or a removeable clip, etc. These are the items I'd like to hear from you on. As soon as the raw actions hit patent pending I'll post them here for all 2 see. I believe you'll be very pleased.

The teaser I'll leave you with is that the 2 executives to see it under a NonDisclosure first accused the one design as having been a remake of an 1800 piece, then saw all the advances and that is was total new and were about speachless. Grant it, I don't think it was that good, but the main point is its got a classic design and some worth while features on it.


Mike

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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58300 - 05/06/06 12:41 AM

I don't want some sort of compromise that's called an "improvement", but in reality is just another cost-cutting effort. Beleive me, everyone who is a true Winchester fan will see through that sort of stunt for exactly what it is...........

I want the same basic controlled-feed action as the original or current 'Classic' pre-64 Model 70, only without the coned breech and without the knurled bolt handle. Just provide a smooth bolt knob, a Mauser 98-type breech and gas escape system, and the original trigger, safety, and receiver. Also, I want the orignal style "Winchester" and "Trademark" logos on the receiver -- forget that cluttered licensing mumbo jumbo. And by all means, call it a Model 70!

I want precise tolerances, and good workmanship. Make this action worthy of the best efforts of the finest custom riflesmith, like a D'Arcy Echols or a David Miller, and you'll have it exactly right.

In fact, get in touch with D'Arcy Echols and hire him as a consultant. He may just know more about what's good and bad about the Model 70 than anyone at USRAC............

AD

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: allenday]
      #58306 - 05/06/06 03:13 AM

Will post more later about my idea of a perfect bolt.... Just wanted to say I think Allen has an excellent idea regarding top custom rifle smiths as consultants. IMO that would be a great way to seriously improve the product as those guys have been to the heart of many different actions and could help you tremendously when designing a new one.

I hope you take that peice of advice.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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577Tyrannosaur
.224 member


Reged: 22/04/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Saint Louis, MO
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: bulldog563]
      #58311 - 05/06/06 08:09 AM


Already on that path, the gentleman handling the prototype is one of the top members of the American Custom Gunsmithing Guild.

Don't worry about me doing anything cheap guys. I've put my house, my shop, my wife, and my career on the line and I've already lost my credit gambling at finding someone to work this out. I wouldn't do all that to make a piece of garbage.

I am confident that you will all be very pleased when you see the prototypes.

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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58321 - 05/06/06 11:17 AM

A big improvement over most any rifle maker out there, would be to chamber LOTS of different cartridges. I always wondered why a big company like Winchester didn't offer anymore calibers than the other makes on the market. Tooling costs aren't that huge for different chamberings. EDM machining could be used to make very nice barrels and receivers. Even fancy full-length ribbed barrels would be no problem.
Aside from that, a nice new single-shot rifle design would be most welcome.

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jimatcat
.224 member


Reged: 04/04/06
Posts: 15
Loc: victoria texas, usa... 125 mil...
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #58322 - 05/06/06 11:48 AM

i have 8 model 70's.... .225, 243, 25-06, 264 win mag, 30-06, 300 win mag, 338 win mag, and 375h&h mag...and i like them all... fav and most shot is the 225....i'd like to see the controlled feed, keep the same safety... do some heavier calibers... like the 416and the 8x57, and not waste time and effort on the "short magnums"....and re-introduce older calibers like the 7x57.... while i'm in the process of shoping double rifles, i'll still shoot my bolt guns...my $0.02 worth....

--------------------
go big or go home

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starman
.275 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 53
Loc: nsw
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #58323 - 05/06/06 12:01 PM

Depends what your definition of perfect is.
the M70 type may be perfect for your business objective,
I But if your talking purely about integrity, intelligence,and proper thoughfulness of design, the M98 hold the aces as far as im concerned.The M70 type. It began as, and ended as, a compromise of an M98.

The Harre49 reciever is an m70 type that is aimed at the highend market. They offered steel,stainless,and Titanium versions, integral scope ring option,needle roller bearing triggers,one piece bottom metal, Mauser C-ring.
Incorporating the latest machining and EDM technology, they work in single figure Microns, not thousanths of an inch.
it would be difficult to surpass the quality of those recievers
They are without doubt the most dimentionally accurate reciever ever made.

You say your version wont be cheap,how much $$ are you talking about??
Will it be a forged, cast or prehardened steel reciever?

WFH start at US$2K, for a Harre49 well in excess of US$3K.

good luck with your project, will be interesting to see what you come up with.

I just so happen to have just spent the last few days at an engineering exhibition.
I enquired about EDM machines. For something to cover jobs up to 400mm price was about US$150k, machine to do 1000mm jobs was about $US800k. price goes up disproportionally. Incredibly accurate, think he said 1 micron or less variation over that distance on final cut.
There was laser probe measuring equipment capable of measuring very minute fractions of a micron.about US$100K complete with indexing probe head.
They had a laser metal building machine that could build just about any shape using a variety of plastic or metal base powder compounds.really interesting and applicable for small and complex parts. strength and integrity seem to be there, cause they use them to build turbine blades for jet engines.
Waterjet was interesting, one company mentioned than they are coming forward with a sytem that is accurate within a few microns and maybe less.




Edited by starman (05/06/06 06:14 PM)

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58327 - 05/06/06 01:07 PM

Dear Mr. Winchester:

My favorite bolt guns can be seen on the website www.rbbigbores.com. Replicate any of these on a mass production basis (but no muzzle brake), and I think you will sell tons of them.

However, here is a brief summary of features that I like:

double square bridge Mauser action, 0.750" bolt body diameter

action length suited to cartridge (i.e., different actions for .308, 30-06, .375 H&H and 416 Rigby length cartridges)

barrel band front sight

barrel band sling stud

quarter rib

straight comb - no tacky monte carlo stuff

pancake cheekpiece

Model 70 style safety may not be my favorite, but most guys like it.

Steel grip cap.

Steel bottom metal with extra deep magazine box (5 + 1 rounds of 375 H&H).

Needless to say, the workmanship must be QUALITY QUALITY QUALITY. I have owned 3 recent production Winchesters, and the quality was CRAP. All 3 needed $500 to $800 in gunsmithing before they were reliable enough for hunting.

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577Tyrannosaur
.224 member


Reged: 22/04/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Saint Louis, MO
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: starman]
      #58331 - 05/06/06 02:04 PM



We've been reviewing new methods like EDM as well as waterjet technology. Right now forging or investment casting are looking most probable. Due to the new action design bar stock isn't possible.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58335 - 05/06/06 02:18 PM

Wasn't the new "pre 64" designed by David Miller?


--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58353 - 05/06/06 11:46 PM

I don't want an investment cast receiver at all. A receiver that's forged, then machined is exactly the way it should be built.

The Model 70 receiver is a big improvement over the Mauser 98 receiver, and I'd hate to see you change the basic design. It's great just the way it is, and it fits countless aftermarket stocks that are already in existence, plus various custom aftermarket parts. This sort of conformity will go a long way toward hastening the acceptance of the new action.

AD

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577Tyrannosaur
.224 member


Reged: 22/04/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Saint Louis, MO
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #58367 - 06/06/06 06:03 AM



I seem to recall that David re-designed the stock.

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SeanZ
.224 member


Reged: 21/11/05
Posts: 8
Loc: Kansas City
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58377 - 06/06/06 12:41 PM

Hello Gentlemen,
I just wanted to chime in with my opinion. I have to agree with 500 grains, he pretty well wrapped everything up into a nice neat little package. ( Great website link, by the way). Although I don't have his experience hunting DG, I have to echo his sentiments about my model 70 . I've spent about $600 tuning my .375 into something I'm comfortable taking on my first safari.
Best Regards... Sean

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: SeanZ]
      #58384 - 06/06/06 05:34 PM

The "Perfect Bolt Action" the Blaser R 93.

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Yochanan
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: NE450No2]
      #58390 - 06/06/06 07:41 PM

Mauser 98, Brno m-21/22 and ZG-47 are the THE perfect bolt actions

Cheers
/JOHAN

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: allenday]
      #58392 - 06/06/06 08:21 PM

In reply to:

Posted by Allen Day:

The Model 70 receiver is a big improvement over the Mauser 98 receiver



Allen,

Would you care to elaborate?

Erik

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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: EricD]
      #58396 - 07/06/06 12:03 AM

Eric, the Model 70 receiver is much stiffer and much more rigid than the Mauser 98 receiver, and it serves as a better accuracy platform. The front action screw being positioned BEHIND the recoil lug, rather than straight up into it, is another real improvement over the '98, plus the recoil lug is much larger as well, and the locktime is much faster. You can look at both actions side-by-side and see many of the differences for yourself.

That was one of Winchester's key objectives when the Model 70 was developed back in the 1930s -- to create a design than provided improvements over the Mauser 98 and Springfield that enhanced accuracy, yet did not compromise feeding or function.

It's championship record in high-power events over the years speaks for itself.............

AD

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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: allenday]
      #58421 - 07/06/06 08:05 AM

I don't want an investment casting, either. Montana Rifle Company makes an M70 action copy using casting, and it costs as much as a nice forged-steel action from CZ. If you want to try a more exotic design, look at Charles Newton's "interupted thread" actions. Very strong, without sacrificing the big claw extractor we all love.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58424 - 07/06/06 09:36 AM


As a person who makes his living building custom rifles I might as well throw in my 2 cents worth! Winchester cut their own throat. The newer mod. 70s were all over the spectrum as far as quality and accuracy. I have seen Super grades in .416 Remington which would not feed and if fired the floor plate would fly open. Why should a person have to either send in their new rifle to Winchester or take it to a smith in order for it to work as it should have when it left the factory? Now do not get me wrong but I have seen some good examples also but in my line of work not too many. If they work right and shoot well people do not bring them in.
As to quality and features look at the CZ 550 Magnum it has many things going for it.
Now to stick up for the mod 70 a bit you must keep in mind several things. First if you want a forged and machined reciever like the 98 Mauser, the price goes up, many of the other features mentioned mean the same thing. The only way to do all these nice things is to either cut profit, (Doubt You will ever see that) or find ways to cut corners.
If you want all these things with the quality you are asking for then you are asking for custom quality from a guy who punches a time card and does piece work., unless you are willing to pay a substancal increase in price. There are people who will pay the price for a "Perfect" rifle they are the ones who keeps me in business.
Now as to improvements the Mod.70 has a lot going for it!
However I would give it a bit more of a recoil lug for starters this really would not increase price. Second look into a tang safety at least on some rifles. Third LOOSE THE COUNTER BORE AND EXTRACTOR CUT!!!! You can have reliable CR feed with out these cuts which would cut cost if eliminatedand also allow Winchester to offer the same chamberings in both right and left hand at no additional price. This is some thing no other company offers! Last, Winchester should go to places like this and find out what their customers want and liston, some thing not done by other companies from what I can see. By the way over a third of my customers are left handed and if that holds true for all the shooters out there it is a substancal market!


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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577Tyrannosaur
.224 member


Reged: 22/04/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Saint Louis, MO
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: Judson]
      #58430 - 07/06/06 10:29 AM



Guys, I really appreciate all the feed back. And you can be confident that this type of dialog will continue if I have anything to say about it.

I think lefties are statistically 20% of the market and don't worry they are included in the mix. I can't wait to get these patent pending so you all can see. They both should be some of the best bolt actions ever made, but the most advance action addresses any concern I think I have ever heard of and should be significantly more stout than any other bolt action ever made. The Safari hunters in here will appreciate many of the aspects of the functionality and especially the extraction.

Well all, wish me luck I'm driving to Denver tomorrow to make a meeting that will hopefully push this all along.

Mike

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AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: 577Tyrannosaur]
      #58431 - 07/06/06 10:36 AM

Best of luck and keep us updated on your progress!

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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starman
.275 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 53
Loc: nsw
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: allenday]
      #58434 - 07/06/06 10:54 AM



(from AllenDay)
" I don't want some sort of compromise that's called an "improvement", but in reality is just another cost-cutting effort. Beleive me, everyone who is a true Winchester fan will see through that sort of stunt for exactly what it is...........



Thats strange you say that Allen, cause Im surprised the M70 fans have not seen that same stunt pulled on them by those calling the M70 an " improvement" over the M98. Or maybe its more acase of self deception.
The M70 is a cost cutting venture,
No C-ring,whimpy poorly designed shroud,clunky oversize tang,cant change ejector blade without pulling rifle apart, 2pc bottom metal, 3pos safety is overrated.
But believe me,true mauser fans dont have a problem seeing through that sort of stunt.
Mr echols builds m70s,yet last I spoke with him, I asked, "cost aside, whats your pick?"...with a sure grin he replied,"HartmannWeissM98." recieved same reply from Gerry Fisher and Ralf Martini.

(as a general rule I dont rely to much on a safeties for safety. If I did need one for some brief moment of convenience, a tang design is far better for ergonomics.



Edited by starman (07/06/06 11:17 AM)

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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: starman]
      #58472 - 08/06/06 12:06 AM

The design features of the Model 70 that I cited above I see as geniune improvments over the Mauser 98, and not as cost-cutting measures.

I've known D'Arcy for a long time, and he's built me a number of rifles that I've hunted with extensively. Most of the rifles be builds (all grades) are based on Model 70s, so he must not think that there's TOO MUCH wrong with that action. If the basic design was anything less excellent, he wouldn't used it, pure and simple.

Neither would David Miller and Curt Crum, who mostly build on Model 70s as well, and like Echols, that won't work with any part or component that it's of the highest quality in terms of design and materials.

All of these guys will build on good Mauser 98-pattern actions if the client desires, but the bulk of their work is on Model 70s.

Walk counts for more than talk............

AD

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starman
.275 member


Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 53
Loc: nsw
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: allenday]
      #58517 - 08/06/06 04:23 PM

Those guys build more m70s cause thats what more Americans in their mind want. That does not automatically conclude that the m70 is superior or improved over an M98.
Those builders may like the design of the M70,but they also like it very much for the business they would otherwise miss out on.

Its a bit like women, the more money thats generally on offer, the more forgiving they are of a mans less than perfect peronality and shape.
.
Further more, when I asked Mr. Echols about the Dakota76, he indicated that he didnt like it.
From my understanding its an improved design M70, but somehow is deemed unacceptable??... what does that say about the Win?
D76 Improvements over the M70;
http://www.huntamerica.com/dakota/

Brian Harre who almost undoubtedly makes the most precise M70 type reciever out there, does not seem to think ones needs more recoil lug. He first made them with the typical cut out behind the recoil lug,now he makes them just plain straight like a mauser, plus C-ring....an M70 looking more like a mauser each day.



Edited by starman (09/06/06 05:03 PM)

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: The Perfect Bolt Action [Re: allenday]
      #58518 - 08/06/06 05:09 PM


Winchester mod. 70s have a following just like the people who favor the mod. 94. However if you look at either rifle from a design perspective there are other rifles which are better. For example if you compare the 94 to the Marlin offering you will see that the Marlin is stronger, fewer parts, you can mount a scope if desired where it should be and is inherently more accurate. The Mod 70 has its flaws too, the three piece firing pin is one and a Mauser style one piece pin would be an improvement. The three piece mag assembly with the chincy pot metal trigger guard is another. I do not know if the designers of the Model 70 were trying to work around the patents held by Mauser or not, but if not they tried to complicate a sound design. However the trigger is sound and simple which is what reliability is all about.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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