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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action
      #36855 - 04/09/05 04:47 PM

From Pls check Vol 1 no. 5

The matter of the idealized bolt-action keeps coming up. None such is available today, probably because very few people understand the bolt-action rifle, and the manufacturers are unwilling to take a chance on the production of anything unusual.

Not that there is anything mysterious here. It would indeed be odd if we were unable to improve upon a concept which was basically a creation of the 19th century. It is certainly true that a dozen or more "modernized" bolt-action rifles have appeared in the last couple of decades, but oddly enough they do not seem to have been designed by people who shoot much.

Let us consider a few of the desiderata which should be available in a bolt-action designed for the 21st century.

A bolt-action should be glassy smooth and instantly operable. The bolt should have a 90 degrees throw, but it should start at 45 degrees below horizontal, as in the Krag, thus obviating the need for a bent bolt handle to stay out of the line of sight. Reduced rotary movement offers illusory advantages in that it increases camming pressure and sacrifices ease of operation.

A modern bolt-action should be instantly convertible from right to left-hand operation. About one customer in six is left-handed, and should not need to put in for special consideration.

The bolt-action should use two, horizontally-opposed locking lugs. Its extractor should not interrupt the circle of the bolt-face, nor should its ejector. (Again, note the Krag bolt-face.)

The modern bolt-action should include a magazine cut-off, a device which I have found eminently useful all my shooting life (which goes back a long way).

The modern bolt-action should feature a rotary box magazine with a shoulder detent to avoid masking soft-point spitzers flat while waiting their turn. (Personally, I would prefer something on the order of Savage 99, but the Mannlicher-type - if made of steel - would do as well.)

The modern bolt-action should permit direct feeding into the chamber without use of the magazine.

The modern bolt-action should feature a strong, simple, single-stage trigger, releasing without apparent motion at 50 oz or a bit less.

While I have certain reservations (along with my good friend and mentor Ian McFarlane of Okavango) about mechanical safety latches, it would be impossible to sell a rifle that did not include one. It should be operable with either hand. It should not extrude from the rifle to catch on things (as is the case with the Winchester three-position safety.) And it should disconnect the trigger and sear from the striker, while at the same time positively locking the striker. (People who count upon a safety latch to render a firearm inoperable are living in a dream world.)

The modern bolt-action should be available in three lengths - short (308), standard (30-06), and long (505 Gibbs).

And last but not least, the modern bolt-action should be factory-fitted with an integral ghost ring aperture sight mounted in the receiver bridge, as was the case with the old ZKK. Telescope sights are here to stay, but they do not invalidate the need for reserve iron sights, and those iron sights should be efficient, as opposed to the V-shaped arrangements now considered factory standard.

There are a couple of extra considerations involving the fitting, bedding and trigger adjustment of the modern bolt-action, but they go into the shop manual.

I don't suppose anyone is going to pay any attention to this sort of thing. Marketing will always be a more important factor to the manufacturers than excellence of design. Besides, the weapons we have been using since the turn of the century have given us excellent service. Still, it is nice to speculate upon the search for excellence, Even if nothing comes of it, it makes good campfire conversation.

Good hunting!


--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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500grains
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #36929 - 06/09/05 12:48 AM

Mr. Cooper does not even know where to mount a scope on a rifle! (see the Scout guns)

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DoubleD
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: 500grains]
      #36942 - 06/09/05 02:49 AM

Sacrilege, some one who doesn’t accept the good Colonel’s word as gospel! That’s two of us.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Oldsarge
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: DoubleD]
      #36944 - 06/09/05 03:45 AM

Make it three!

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!


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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Oldsarge]
      #36949 - 06/09/05 07:07 AM

And four.

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Tightloop
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #63712 - 08/10/06 02:30 AM

Any of you guys ever even met Jeff Cooper when he was still alive? I have taken 5 classes at Gunsite and spent many many hours with Jeff discussing shooting, guns and hunting, totally enthralled...Not only was he a knowledgable hunter, writer and teacher, he was the father of modern pistol craft...and was way ahead of his time on many issues like the Scout Rifle concept, the CW sling and was correct about the ghost apperature rear sight being better and faster than any other type..

Just my opinion, but unless you have had as much interaction with the man as I have, or more...your comments are totally out of line, as well as incorrect...


thank you

David Winker


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DoubleD
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Tightloop]
      #63715 - 08/10/06 04:32 AM

I first visited Copper at his home in Big Bear back in the early 70's.. We sat in his living room and talked for several hours about guns and Gunners while he bounced my kids on his knee.

A few months later my shooting coach and I showed up with our revolvers for one of his Combat Pistol matches he use to hold at Big Bear . He told us we would be disadvantaged but most welcome to shoot. It was a moving vehicle match shot from a moving vehicle. After the match when my coach took second and I third, Cooper told everyone gathered to never under estimate a man who knows how to use his tools. It was a humble and eloquent thing for the man to say.

Later after his move to Paulden I visited him again several times as he was building Gunsite. He as usual was a gracious host. He was interesting to visit with and was as good a listener and as speaker. He seemed to respect a different point of view that was supported by good reason and logic.

Jeff Copper was intelligent, eloquent and always a gentlemen. That he has almost a cult following is understandable as he was also very charismatic.

Unfortunately that cult seems quick to cry sacrilege when some does not agree with Copper's philosophy, something the man himself at least back in the 70's when I knew him, would not have done.

That he contributed to the art of shooting there can be no doubt and his philosophy will go on for ever. But his way was not the only answer.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Tightloop]
      #63717 - 08/10/06 05:19 AM

In reply to:

Any of you guys ever even met Jeff Cooper when he was still alive? I have taken 5 classes at Gunsite and spent many many hours with Jeff discussing shooting, guns and hunting, totally enthralled...Not only was he a knowledgable hunter, writer and teacher, he was the father of modern pistol craft...and was way ahead of his time on many issues like the Scout Rifle concept, the CW sling and was correct about the ghost apperature rear sight being better and faster than any other type..

Just my opinion, but unless you have had as much interaction with the man as I have, or more...your comments are totally out of line, as well as incorrect...


thank you

David Winker




Mr. Winker, simply because you knew Mr Cooper, and agreed with his opinions, doesn't make him right in his opinion! So with that thought in mind it is a toss up who is out of line, and incorrect as well!

Mr Cooper was a nice man, who had a large opinion of the worth, of his ideas, that were mostly with weapons designed to kill people! After all, his back ground was in Military combat training, and self defense from armed opponants, not sport hunting.

I'm sorry to see him pass, because he had a place in the self defense magazines, but he was a soldier to the end, and that doesn't necessarily translate into proper design of hunting rifles.

He was good at his chosen field, but his field is not where most hunters interests lie! His creations were not popular in the hunting fields, and I suspect neither are your's, since you agreed with him so much.

I agreed with him on his political views, but certainly not on his choice of hunting rifles. Still, may he rest in peace, though I doubt he would be satisfied with anything as mundane, as "PEACE"!

.............................RIP, COL. SUH!.............................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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André
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Tightloop]
      #63739 - 08/10/06 07:24 PM

I had the privilege of getting acquainted withe this old gentleman when he stayed in Brussels in the 70ties. After I graduated as expert from his API, we kept in touch and wrote each other a few times. I found back one of his letters (can't remember where the others may be...) :


--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.


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NE450No2
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: André]
      #63831 - 10/10/06 04:37 PM

I too, am a Jeff Cooper fan.
I enjoyed his books and his magazine articals.
I met him once, he was very friendly.

I am a fan of several other writers as well.

I do not totally agree with every thing they say, but then I don't agree with everything I have said either.

Cooper was an ICON, a serious student, and pioneer in the use of small arms.

PS. El Jeffe was a big fan of the Blaser R 93.


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Boomer
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: NE450No2]
      #64332 - 20/10/06 11:53 AM

I think we can agree that Jeff Cooper's knowledge of small arms and small arms tactics in sport, defence, or war far exceeds that of the casual enthusiast. Only God knows how many good men are alive today due to this man's teachings. Agree with him or not, anything he said or wrote was worthy of attention. In a previous post it was said that to not agree with Jeff Cooper is sacralidge. Perhaps not, but consider this, if you do not agree with him - you are probably wrong, and it It might be worth while to try to understand why you are wrong.

--------------------



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allenday
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #64513 - 23/10/06 11:52 PM

I'm a big Jeff Cooper fan, and I have been for many years. When it comes to pistolcraft, self-defense concepts, etc., I'm with the the late Colonel all the way.

I don't disagree with all of his rifle concepts, either, but there are many of them that I simply DON'T agree with as well, at least in terms of hunting rifles.

I'm much more in accord with Jack O'Connor when it comes to hunting rifles that I am Colonel Cooper.........

AD


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Tightloop
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: allenday]
      #64843 - 29/10/06 03:54 AM

Agreed that most of the Colonel's work with long guns was biased toward any military usage...as could be expected.

I liked both O'Connor and Keith...both could be opinionated, just like Cooper, but that did not keep them from becoming recognized as authorities in the shooting field...You just have to take each man on the basis of what he did with the span of his life...both Keith and O'Connor devoted much of their influence to long guns while Cooper yielded most of his influence in the combat/defensive handgun arena...

I hate to read comments made about any of the three that are in poor taste and that is what prompted my comments...IMHO the comments concerning Jeff Cooper were in poor taste...no one has to agree, just my .02 worth...

The Scout rifle concept may not be everyone's cup of tea, just like shooting dangerous game in India with a 275 Rigby might not be acceptable to all, but Cooper felt about the Scout rifle just like Corbett did about the 275 Rigby, perfectly adequate. Again, not for everyone, but for them, just right.


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475Guy
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Tightloop]
      #64855 - 29/10/06 09:16 AM

Hear, Hear!!

In this day and age, it seems common to denigrate any writer of old because one doesn't agree with the writer's views. Just remember one thing, Col. Jeff has done a lot of game shooting all over and that includes quite a few trips to Africa.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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Grizzly
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: 475Guy]
      #64985 - 31/10/06 07:06 PM

I didn't always agree with what Cooper had to say. I had and have a lot of respect for the man, however.

He had the backbone to actually express an opinion, which he supported by his experiences. How many "gun" writers today has anyone seen expressing an opinion? Or better yet, calling a piece of crap a piece of crap. None that I have seen.

Almost no writer today is going to piss off a potential source of revenue, and few publications out there will allow their writers to trash an inferior product based on the fear of losing ad dollars.

So, we get magazines that make one believe that a Remington 700 is just as reliable as a Mauser 98. That both push and controlled round feed "have their merits", and that sure fire flashlights are like damn Star Wars light sabres and can kill with light energy.

One of the greatest value of this site and those like it is that people do express honest views without having their credibility compromised by monetary gain. Cooper was a rarity among writers today - he called them as he saw them. I am sure the folks at G&A cringed a time or two, but they were better off with him than without him.

We disagree with each other every day here. And we almost always (at least on this site) do so with respect.

So we can agree or disagree with Cooper's views, but you have to admit he was pretty clear on where he stood and what he stood for. I not only respect that, I admire the hell out if it. Even though I did not agree with him on many topics.







--------------------
SCI Life Member
DSC Life Member
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DoubleD
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Grizzly]
      #64997 - 01/11/06 04:33 AM

In reply to:

So we can agree or disagree with Cooper's views, but you have to admit he was pretty clear on where he stood and what he stood for. I not only respect that, I admire the hell out if it. Even though I did not agree with him on many topics.



Amen!

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: DoubleD]
      #328687 - 22/05/19 08:34 PM

BTTT, What do you think?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Postman
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: NitroX]
      #328695 - 22/05/19 11:35 PM

I spent a great deal of my early teen years reading G&A, and Jeff Cooper’s articles were one of my most favourite reads! I also became captivated by Capstick through his occasional short articles printed in the pages of G&A. I admired Mr Cooper’s bent toward the pragmatic, although I don’t know that I am entirely smitten with his view of the perfect rifle. I am of the opinion that the new Heym Express rifles got it right in almost every way when designing the ideal or “perfect” DG safari bolt action, although if they “borrowed” an opinion from Mr. Cooper, they could have added the integral ghost ring as a backup to the EAW QD swing mounts to get from almost perfect all the way to perfect.

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DarylS
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Postman]
      #328701 - 23/05/19 01:03 AM

If not for Jeff Cooper, I'd likely never have delved into IPSC.
He was a good man.
On his instructions, many years ago, I built "Peter the Power Meter" in the basement shop at the jail where I worked. Cool machine.
Fun testing different ammo on it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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xausa
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Postman]
      #328704 - 23/05/19 01:12 AM

Although I agree with a good deal of what Col. Cooper has to say, there are several points of disagreement:

"A modern bolt-action should be instantly convertible from right to left-hand operation."

I can't imagine what this requirement means. All I can think of is the awkward methods Sedgley and others used to convert right handed rifles to left handed operation, with all the other features of the rifle remaining the same.

"Its extractor should not interrupt the circle of the bolt-face, nor should its ejector."

This sounds as though it's describing the Remington post-War Model 700 design with the extractor and ejector embedded in the bolt face circle and in the bolt face itself. No thanks!

"The modern bolt-action should include a magazine cut-off."

I have tried my best to imagine a situation where this device would be advantageous to use and utterly failed. It wasn't even a particularly good idea for a military weapon.

"The modern bolt-action should feature a rotary box magazine."

I would agree with an optional rotary box magazine, but the Mauser type magazine is far more flexible, should a change in caliber come into question.

"It (a mechanical safety latch) should be operable with either hand. It should not extrude from the rifle to catch on things (as is the case with the Winchester three-position safety.)"

I have been carrying Model 70 Winchesters for around fifty years now and have never experienced having the safety catch on anything. Even if this were not the case, there are several alternative safeties, like the Recknagel, which have a latch which has to be depressed to release the safety.

The only explanation I can come up with for this remark, is that Col. Cooper might have been thinking of the pre-War Model 70's, which had their safeties on the left side of the bolt sleeve and the safety lever protruded out at 90 degrees from the long axis of the rifle when the safety was engaged. Later Model 70's all have a safety lever which lies almost flat against the right side of the bolt sleeve when engaged and is very unlikely to "catch" on anything.


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Ripp
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Postman]
      #328707 - 23/05/19 01:33 AM

Quote:

I spent a great deal of my early teen years reading G&A, and Jeff Cooper’s articles were one of my most favourite reads! I also became captivated by Capstick through his occasional short articles printed in the pages of G&A. I admired Mr Cooper’s bent toward the pragmatic, although I don’t know that I am entirely smitten with his view of the perfect rifle. I am of the opinion that the new Heym Express rifles got it right in almost every way when designing the ideal or “perfect” DG safari bolt action, although if they “borrowed” an opinion from Mr. Cooper, they could have added the integral ghost ring as a backup to the EAW QD swing mounts to get from almost perfect all the way to perfect.




ME too with all of the above..you and I must be similar in age..??

I am set to attend his indoor training range later this year.. cant wait to go there.. hear lots of good things.. GUNSITE.. https://www.gunsite.com/

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Postman
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Ripp]
      #328708 - 23/05/19 03:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I spent a great deal of my early teen years reading G&A, and Jeff Cooper’s articles were one of my most favourite reads! I also became captivated by Capstick through his occasional short articles printed in the pages of G&A. I admired Mr Cooper’s bent toward the pragmatic, although I don’t know that I am entirely smitten with his view of the perfect rifle. I am of the opinion that the new Heym Express rifles got it right in almost every way when designing the ideal or “perfect” DG safari bolt action, although if they “borrowed” an opinion from Mr. Cooper, they could have added the integral ghost ring as a backup to the EAW QD swing mounts to get from almost perfect all the way to perfect.




ME too with all of the above..you and I must be similar in age..??

I am set to attend his indoor training range later this year.. cant wait to go there.. hear lots of good things.. GUNSITE.. https://www.gunsite.com/




I’m 57, at least until the fall of this year . It was Jeff Cooper that made me eventually gravitate toward IPSC. As mentioned though, it was Capstick that really put the hook in me!


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Ripp
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Postman]
      #328709 - 23/05/19 03:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I spent a great deal of my early teen years reading G&A, and Jeff Cooper’s articles were one of my most favourite reads! I also became captivated by Capstick through his occasional short articles printed in the pages of G&A. I admired Mr Cooper’s bent toward the pragmatic, although I don’t know that I am entirely smitten with his view of the perfect rifle. I am of the opinion that the new Heym Express rifles got it right in almost every way when designing the ideal or “perfect” DG safari bolt action, although if they “borrowed” an opinion from Mr. Cooper, they could have added the integral ghost ring as a backup to the EAW QD swing mounts to get from almost perfect all the way to perfect.




ME too with all of the above..you and I must be similar in age..??

I am set to attend his indoor training range later this year.. cant wait to go there.. hear lots of good things.. GUNSITE.. https://www.gunsite.com/




I’m 57, at least until the fall of this year . It was Jeff Cooper that made me eventually gravitate toward IPSC. As mentioned though, it was Capstick that really put the hook in me!




Damn it.. your younger, wealthier and better looking..

Story or my life, mostly when I am introduced to my wife's former boyfriends..

I am 3 years your senior..

And YES, DEATH IN THE LONG GRASS was the one that got me..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: Ripp]
      #328720 - 23/05/19 09:40 AM

You guys make me feel 'older'.
Just turned 69 today. Now, who'd have thought I'd ever each THAT age.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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xausa
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: DarylS]
      #328723 - 23/05/19 10:53 AM

I'm 80, all you young guys.

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SharpsNitro
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: xausa]
      #328724 - 23/05/19 11:29 AM

Wow! Some of those requirements are the equivalent of fairy dust. Instantly convertible from right to left hand and a two lug, 90deg bolt throw? I’ve had a couple of Steyr Scout rifles (still have the 376 big bore) and love the idea but this doesn’t seem practical/achievable.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #328726 - 23/05/19 01:23 PM

What a bunch of old farts ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #328727 - 23/05/19 01:32 PM

Quote:

A modern bolt-action should be instantly convertible from right to left-hand operation. About one customer in six is left-handed, and should not need to put in for special consideration.




What an ugly rifle that would be. Also known as a semi auto rifle.

And I don't need no sinister rifles!

Quote:

The modern bolt-action should feature a rotary box magazine with a shoulder detent to avoid masking soft-point spitzers flat while waiting their turn. (Personally, I would prefer something on the order of Savage 99, but the Mannlicher-type - if made of steel - would do as well.)




As ugly as they are, a removable box magazine is very handy. For those of us who shoot herds of beasties.

Also permits carrying extras.

Quote:

The modern bolt-action should permit direct feeding into the chamber without use of the magazine.




Absolutely.


Quote:

The modern bolt-action should feature a strong, simple, single-stage trigger, releasing without apparent motion at 50 oz or a bit less.




No,it should have a modern mauser type set trigger. Push it forward and it becomes very light.


Quote:

While I have certain reservations (along with my good friend and mentor Ian McFarlane of Okavango) about mechanical safety latches, it would be impossible to sell a rifle that did not include one. It should be operable with either hand. It should not extrude from the rifle to catch on things (as is the case with the Winchester three-position safety.) And it should disconnect the trigger and sear from the striker, while at the same time positively locking the striker. (People who count upon a safety latch to render a firearm inoperable are living in a dream world.)




The shotgun style safety is the best.


Quote:

And last but not least, the modern bolt-action should be factory-fitted with an integral ghost ring aperture sight mounted in the receiver bridge, as was the case with the old ZKK. Telescope sights are here to stay, but they do not invalidate the need for reserve iron sights, and those iron sights should be efficient, as opposed to the V-shaped arrangements now considered factory standard.




Yes.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Jeff Cooper on the ideal bolt action [Re: NitroX]
      #328781 - 24/05/19 05:56 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks for sharing Mehul Kamdar.

I to, was an avid follower of Jeff Cooper.
But the older and more experienced I became, the more I realised that like so many things, money was behind particular attitudes and idea's.
Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't mean one item will fit everybody, and all situations.

Please don't think I believe I could ever fill Jeff Coopers boots but over the years, I came to a few conclusion myself.
One being, when it comes to firearms, it's the rifle or handgun that you are used to using, that so many people get proficient with. This has come from watching other people shooting any and every type of rifle/handgun, and also from my own personal experience shooting all sorts of firearms.
One of the most important things to have or be aware of, is a firearm that fits you and or your body shape and size. I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture of what I'm trying to say.

If I was asked for an ideal working/battle rifle (for close to medium range use), I would have to suggest you go with a rifle developed in the early 1940's ......... the SMLE No4, Jungle Carbine, in the mighty .303 British.
There is nothing new in this world ............

Avagreatweekendeh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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