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NorfolkShooter01
.224 member


Reged: 02/08/21
Posts: 30
Loc: United Kingdom
Moving up in size
      #355853 - 09/08/21 02:38 AM

Hi fella's

I'm new to the forum and this will be my first post. I have a 375 h&h and a 416 Rigby double made by Sabatti. The 375 will stay with me as it's one that has saved my skin. I'm considering moving my 416 on and stepping up to a 500 Jeffrey.

My question is how much more recoil might I be looking at? I know it can be mitigated a touch by stock design etc. So lets say the stock and rifle is a custom made rifle to my small 5'3 frame.

Look forward to hearing from you all

Many thanks in advance

PS I live in England and we all know the gun laws there are bonkers but finding a 500 Jeff to have a go on first is going to be impossible


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NorfolkShooter01]
      #355865 - 09/08/21 09:19 AM

I think rifle weight is as big a factor as stock design when you head north of the 450s.

We have a Sako BrownBear .500 Jeffery as our Big Game Rifle club-gun for Group 3 Nitro, and it is fine to shoot. Two other members have them also, and one very nice custom job on a CZ550.

Loads that make Group 3 are easy to shoot with these rifles, but add the extra 15 grains of powder to get them up to book velocity and you notice it.
Mind you, the .416 Rigby can sting a bit too with full loads, on account of the extra recoil velocity over a properly weighted .500.

Hope this helps: hard to put a subjective assessment like this into words.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Moving up in size [Re: Marrakai]
      #355869 - 09/08/21 01:00 PM

NorfolkShooter, welcome to the NE Forums.

(Just an aside: I was based at RAF Bentwaters as an A-10 Warthog pilot 40 years ago, now THAT is a big rifle!))

I have a .500AHR which is a "modernized" version of the .500 Jefferey. My suggestion is to try before you buy, the .500 Jeffery full power loads even in a well shaped rifle of sufficient weight are quite another step up from even the .450's or .470

Not a bad thing……just have to be attuned to the performance level. .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, .500 NE all will be about equal for your test firing decision making.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NorfolkShooter01]
      #355874 - 09/08/21 04:10 PM

Quote:

Hi fella's

I'm new to the forum and this will be my first post. I have a 375 h&h and a 416 Rigby double made by Sabatti. The 375 will stay with me as it's one that has saved my skin. I'm considering moving my 416 on and stepping up to a 500 Jeffrey.

My question is how much more recoil might I be looking at? I know it can be mitigated a touch by stock design etc. So lets say the stock and rifle is a custom made rifle to my small 5'3 frame.




Welcome.

I note your 416 is a Sabatti double. Not sure what your 375 is.

A 500 Jeffery would be a bolt action of course.

Good luck on your project. I won't comment much on stock design and weight, except I would go for a classic design and a weight in excess of 10 lbs.

My .450 No. 2 NE double rifle is in excess of 13 lbs, and weighty to carry but not too bad to shoot. It still kicks however.

I would NEVER go for a muzzle break. Hate the things and they should be kept to the range and not the field.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NorfolkShooter01
.224 member


Reged: 02/08/21
Posts: 30
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Moving up in size [Re: NitroX]
      #355881 - 09/08/21 05:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi fella's

I'm new to the forum and this will be my first post. I have a 375 h&h and a 416 Rigby double made by Sabatti. The 375 will stay with me as it's one that has saved my skin. I'm considering moving my 416 on and stepping up to a 500 Jeffrey.

My question is how much more recoil might I be looking at? I know it can be mitigated a touch by stock design etc. So lets say the stock and rifle is a custom made rifle to my small 5'3 frame.




Welcome.

I note your 416 is a Sabatti double. Not sure what your 375 is.

A 500 Jeffery would be a bolt action of course.

Good luck on your project. I won't comment much on stock design and weight, except I would go for a classic design and a weight in excess of 10 lbs.

My .450 No. 2 NE double rifle is in excess of 13 lbs, and weighty to carry but not too bad to shoot. It still kicks however.

I would NEVER go for a muzzle break. Hate the things and they should be kept to the range and not the field.




The 375 is an old August Francotte bolt action love the thing. I totally agree when it comes to muzzle breaks.
The proson im potentially using to build the rifle served his apprenticeship at Purdeys and Westley Richards so Im sure he knows what he is doing. I have seen some of his work and I must say it has impressed me. Im gonna pop over to see him at his workshop in the next few weeks


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JTOMLINSON
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Reged: 16/02/05
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NorfolkShooter01]
      #355929 - 11/08/21 05:30 AM

Hi

I am in Yorkshire and have a 500 Jeffery, and a .600 if you wish to do a comparison to your .416. Stock fit and weight will mitigate felt recoil but lb for lb the 500 is a whole different ball game to .416 but still not a man killer and manageable.

Jonathan


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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #355933 - 11/08/21 08:04 AM

The most important features of any heavy recoiling cartridge choice is stock fit and weight, but not just length of pull and comb height but also grip diameter and sweep, as well as forend size and shape. If these are wrong then the gun becomes unmanageable, however if you get them correct than the 500's are not difficult to shoot. I have shot many 500 Jeffery's and 500 NE and neither are difficult or unpleasant to shoot if the stock is the right fit in all areas, and the correct weight.

I recently purchased a CZ550 in 505 Gibbs, a cartridge which I have wanted to own for a long time. Now the recoil with the 505 is a noticeable step up from the other two 500's but the real problem is with the stock which has a grip that is way to thick and prevents you from holding on to the rifle properly during recoil. As well as this it has a cheek piece which IMO is totally unnecessary on a stopping rifle. Very few if any British guns in these large calibers ever had a cheek piece, and for good reason as it has a tendency to bash you in the face. As a consequence of that poor stock design I am taking the stock to Ross Waghorn who is magnificent stock maker and having the grip re-shaped and re-checkered and the cheek piece removed. He has done that for almost every CZ 550 regardless of chambering that is in use at the BGRC, and here in Victoria there are a lot as we have a lot of members.

After that has been done the rifle will be pleasant to shoot, well as pleasant as big 500 can be and will be used a lot.
One thing I have noticed is that CZ550's in 505 Gibbs come up for sale quite regularly with Dies and heaps of brass and projectiles which is exactly how I bought mine. It had only fired six rounds by the first owner who sold it on to the next guy who never fired it with the story that he had a 500 Jeffery and didn't need two 500's. However I believe the real reason is that he couldn't handle the rifle during recoil and subsequently sold it, which is what I also believe is the reason for many very complete rifles being sold with almost no shots fired. So don't be afraid to buy a 500, just make sure the gun is fitted correctly at every point.

Hope this helps.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

Edited by Waidmannsheil (11/08/21 08:55 AM)


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NorfolkShooter01
.224 member


Reged: 02/08/21
Posts: 30
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Moving up in size [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #356197 - 20/08/21 07:19 AM

I might PM you and pick your brains and if poss squeeze a shot off

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NorfolkShooter01
.224 member


Reged: 02/08/21
Posts: 30
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #356198 - 20/08/21 07:21 AM

Quote:

The most important features of any heavy recoiling cartridge choice is stock fit and weight, but not just length of pull and comb height but also grip diameter and sweep, as well as forend size and shape. If these are wrong then the gun becomes unmanageable, however if you get them correct than the 500's are not difficult to shoot. I have shot many 500 Jeffery's and 500 NE and neither are difficult or unpleasant to shoot if the stock is the right fit in all areas, and the correct weight.

I recently purchased a CZ550 in 505 Gibbs, a cartridge which I have wanted to own for a long time. Now the recoil with the 505 is a noticeable step up from the other two 500's but the real problem is with the stock which has a grip that is way to thick and prevents you from holding on to the rifle properly during recoil. As well as this it has a cheek piece which IMO is totally unnecessary on a stopping rifle. Very few if any British guns in these large calibers ever had a cheek piece, and for good reason as it has a tendency to bash you in the face. As a consequence of that poor stock design I am taking the stock to Ross Waghorn who is magnificent stock maker and having the grip re-shaped and re-checkered and the cheek piece removed. He has done that for almost every CZ 550 regardless of chambering that is in use at the BGRC, and here in Victoria there are a lot as we have a lot of members.

After that has been done the rifle will be pleasant to shoot, well as pleasant as big 500 can be and will be used a lot.
One thing I have noticed is that CZ550's in 505 Gibbs come up for sale quite regularly with Dies and heaps of brass and projectiles which is exactly how I bought mine. It had only fired six rounds by the first owner who sold it on to the next guy who never fired it with the story that he had a 500 Jeffery and didn't need two 500's. However I believe the real reason is that he couldn't handle the rifle during recoil and subsequently sold it, which is what I also believe is the reason for many very complete rifles being sold with almost no shots fired. So don't be afraid to buy a 500, just make sure the gun is fitted correctly at every point.

Hope this helps.

Matt.




Fully agree Matt. My 375 feels like a 308 due to the stock. Guys what the general feeling on set triggers for a 500??


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Moving up in size [Re: NorfolkShooter01]
      #356207 - 20/08/21 09:59 AM

Quote:

what the general feeling on set triggers for a 500?



Entirely my opinion FWIW, but unnecessary on a .500 for 2 reasons:

- such rifles are not used for long-range precision shooting, so fine trigger control is redundant;

- the weight (hence inertia) of the rifle pretty-much negates any tendency for the sights to mis-align due to trigger-pull weight.

One might even regard any tendency towards a "hair trigger" on a powerful rifle to be potentially dangerous.

Having said that, there is no reason to tolerate an unnecessarily heavy trigger on any hunting rifle, regardless of calibre.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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NorfolkShooter01
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Reged: 02/08/21
Posts: 30
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Moving up in size [Re: Marrakai]
      #356223 - 20/08/21 09:59 PM

Quote:



-

Having said that, there is no reason to tolerate an unnecessarily heavy trigger on any hunting rifle, regardless of calibre.





Thats my thinking. My 375 has double set triggers and I do like them. my 7x64 has a nice lightish trigger but then again it is a small cal


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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Moving up in size [Re: NorfolkShooter01]
      #356253 - 21/08/21 12:05 PM

Or tolerate an unnecessarily heavy rifle!

May I ask what will you hunt with the 50 caliber rifle that a .416 will not kill?

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Moving up in size [Re: crshelton]
      #356254 - 21/08/21 01:16 PM

Quote:

Or tolerate an unnecessarily heavy rifle!
May I ask what will you hunt with the 50 caliber rifle that a .416 will not kill?




Maybe just comes down to "wanting" a classic .50 for the sheer enjoyment of mastering the horsepower & having something few other shooters have? Not for everybody, but so what…..lots of good fun in a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs

After all, by your logic why not just a .375 H&H…..it will kill everything a .416 (or ridiculously juiced up .405 Winchester) would be used on.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Moving up in size [Re: 3DogMike]
      #356283 - 22/08/21 05:38 AM

3DM,
Maybe it just boils down to personal taste.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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NorfolkShooter01
.224 member


Reged: 02/08/21
Posts: 30
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Moving up in size [Re: 3DogMike]
      #356365 - 26/08/21 05:31 PM






Maybe just comes down to "wanting" a classic .50 for the sheer enjoyment of mastering the horsepower & having something few other shooters have? Not for everybody, but so what…..lots of good fun in a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs

After all, by your logic why not just a .375 H&H…..it will kill everything a .416 (or ridiculously juiced up .405 Winchester) would be used on.
- Mike




Mike you have hit the nail right on the head there mate. I have hit a problem though. The maker cant get a 500 j barrel in time for my hunt in April but has been offered a 505 gibbs actioned barrel. Just waiting for pics and details. I sure hope its a double square bridge. Failing everything I might just go with a 450 Rigby.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NorfolkShooter01]
      #356383 - 27/08/21 01:56 PM

Going back to the comment "what would 500 kill that a 416 couldn't?"

It's simple, any experienced DG hunter can tell you, that a 500 is far more a killer and effective than a 450 and a 416 and a 375 etc.

And if hunting in thick cover or a wounded DG beast, a 500 is an obvious better choice.

And if hunting elephant an obvious better choice.

A 416 is a compromise rifle. A good clients rifle. Better for plains game by far than a 500. But a 500 is far better for DG.

On the good old days one would have both. And call for the 500 from the gun carrier when needed.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NitroX]
      #356384 - 27/08/21 01:58 PM

Set triggers on DG rifles? Maybe a topic for a new thread?

BTW one of my rifles dies have a set trigger and I have used it on a larger bore calibre.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NorfolkShooter01]
      #356577 - 05/09/21 10:52 AM

NS, my 505 Gibbs had a set trigger which I removed and replaced with a Timney version which is very nice and no set trigger. I personally wouldn't have a set trigger on a DG rifle as there is a risk of accidentally setting it and you are not taking long sniping shots with that sort of rifle anyway. The one that came with the rifle certainly worked well when used as a normal trigger but under inspection with an Optivisor during pulling would rotate internally so that you were getting only a fraction of the sear contacting rather than the whole blade, which is a recipe for accelerated wear. So I replaced it and am happy with the Timney unit.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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crshelton
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #356578 - 05/09/21 12:19 PM

"It's simple, any experienced DG hunter can tell you, that a 500 is far more a killer and effective than a 450 and a 416 and a 375 etc." True of a 50 cal BMG also!

No argument there and I agree that for the professional hunter the bigger boomers may be best.

But what about all their clients that shoot lesser rifles and actually kill a lot of game?

Or some odd ball caliber from another country like the USA?

Here are two of mine that have taken DG --- they are old and mostly forgotten, but their bullets still kill large and dangerous game and the game neither know nor care where the bullets came from.

Winchester 1895 .405 WCF with same performance as 450/400.


Winchester 1886 .45-90 (.458 2.4) with 96% capacity of .458 Win Mag.
Shooting 450 grain bullets at 2150 fps and used by an experienced hunter took multiple buff, an ele, leopard and plains game in Africa. Plus Bison, Nilgai and many more in the USA.

Even though it is not an English DR, in the hands of a rifleman, no game is safe!

PS The rifleman that took the ele mentioned above just took two Alaskan Grizzlies with a muzzle loader and is on his way back to Texas. We will be chasing warthogs together this winter in the Rio Grande Valley.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: crshelton]
      #356593 - 05/09/21 09:53 PM

Quote:

"It's simple, any experienced DG hunter can tell you, that a 500 is far more a killer and effective than a 450 and a 416 and a 375 etc." True of a 50 cal BMG also!

No argument there and I agree that for the professional hunter the bigger boomers may be best.

But what about all their clients that shoot lesser rifles and actually kill a lot of game?

Or some odd ball caliber from another country like the USA?

Here are two of mine that have taken DG --- they are old and mostly forgotten, but their bullets still kill large and dangerous game and the game neither know nor care where the bullets came from.

Winchester 1895 .405 WCF with same performance as 450/400.





Does it?

405 Winchester Center Fire
Maximum CUP 36000 CUP
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy 300 gr (19 g) 2,204 ft/s (672 m/s) 3,236 ft⋅lbf (4,387 J) 400 gr (26 g) 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) 3,207 ft⋅lbf (4,348 J)
Source(s): The American Rifle Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual

On this basis, approx 300 fps slower than a .450/400?


Quote:



Winchester 1886 .45-90 (.458 2.4) with 96% capacity of .458 Win Mag.
Shooting 450 grain bullets at 2150 fps and used by an experienced hunter took multiple buff, an ele, leopard and plains game in Africa. Plus Bison, Nilgai and many more in the USA.




Seems equivalent to a .458 Win Mag, maybe even a little more.?

Quote:

Even though it is not an English DR, in the hands of a rifleman, no game is safe!

PS The rifleman that took the ele mentioned above just took two Alaskan Grizzlies with a muzzle loader and is on his way back to Texas. We will be chasing warthogs together this winter in the Rio Grande Valley.




Use whatever you want. The comments were about a .500 compared to lesser choices.

But as for nationality of cartridges,

Quote:

May I ask what will you hunt with the 50 (500 Jeffery) caliber rifle that a .416 will not kill?




Neither of these are US, so not sure wby the angst?

I think not a single member here would be exempt from the "why have rilfe Z, seeing you already have a X, which can do it? " Ha ha.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rule303
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NitroX]
      #356613 - 06/09/21 11:56 AM

Quote:

Going back to the comment "what would 500 kill that a 416 couldn't?"

It's simple, any experienced DG hunter can tell you, that a 500 is far more a killer and effective than a 450 and a 416 and a 375 etc.

And if hunting in thick cover or a wounded DG beast, a 500 is an obvious better choice.

And if hunting elephant an obvious better choice.

A 416 is a compromise rifle. A good clients rifle. Better for plains game by far than a 500. But a 500 is far better for DG.

On the good old days one would have both. And call for the 500 from the gun carrier when needed.




Experience says otherwise. Last Elephant I shot-my second- was with a 416 Rigby and 400grain Woodleigh Hydro from 18 paces. My PH said he had never seen an elephant drop as quick. I had not manged to recover from recoil before it was flat on the ground.


OK now lets put this in perspective. This is an example of 1. An exceedingly small sample size. However the 416 Rigby is about the top of my recoil tolerance so anything that kicks more would/could have resulted in poor shot placement. So a 416 Rigby is a far better stopping rifle for me than the 500 cals. However a 500 would be a better "Turning" Calibre. That is hit the animal somewhere near vitals or bone and the animal turns away.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: Rule303]
      #356614 - 06/09/21 02:58 PM

Quote:


Experience says otherwise.




Yes, I could say the same. Two elephant dropped instantly with brain shots froma 480 gr Woodleigh RN FMJ .450 nE. The second hit the sand so dramatically it did a sideways somersault.

That's what happens when the brain is soundly hit. And never mind the PH's comments, they get a bigger tip by buttering up the clients. No offence intended.

I am not referring to your limited experience or my limited experience, but to the comments of those who have done a fair amount of hunting of big and dangerous game, follow ups, charges etc with a .500 and above or sub 500. Most steps up once one gets to the 450, to 500 etc are significant. Per more experienced heads than mine.

"Turning" or Stopping, no real dirfference.

I would say the difference is for less than ideal shooting cconditions and less than ideal bullet placement. If the brain is hit, it collapses. Irrespective of the calibre.

It is satisfying when hunting such a dangerous beast at such close range to have them collapse soundly. I was never tempted for body shots, as I wanted them down and out, instantly.

Myself, I am happy to keep using my .450. Don't need hydros. The standard FMJs still work fine even after a hundred plus years.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (06/09/21 03:00 PM)


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grandveneur
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NitroX]
      #356630 - 07/09/21 01:46 AM

Quote:

...


... I was never tempted for body shots, as I wanted them down and out, instantly.



...




I prefer the heart shot because I once had a problem with an elephant after a brain shot. One heart shot with the cartridge 500 jeffery and the elephant immediately went down on the place, and that in two cases.

The brain shot is sure to be a good shot, and I already did it well, but as far as you hit the brain right.


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Rule303
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: NitroX]
      #356638 - 07/09/21 09:13 AM

As for PH's buttering up the client I know this happens but the bloke I was with wouldn't know the meaning of the term. He is a very direct sort of person. The sort I get on well with, no Bulldust.

Stopping and turning are very different things. The point I was making is that a good shot with a smaller calibre, that the person can shoot well, is better and more effective than a shit shot from a larger calibre.


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NorfolkShooter01
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Re: Moving up in size [Re: Rule303]
      #356650 - 08/09/21 03:32 AM

Thats right shot placement is king but if you can put a big bullet where it has to go would that not be the best of two worlds??

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