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Ripp
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Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum
      #315672 - 26/04/18 11:07 PM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2018/4/20/head-to-head-416-rigby-vs-416-remington-magnum/

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DarylS
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315683 - 27/04/18 01:56 AM

Interesting, I came to the same conclusions many years ago, if simply basing on factory ammo.
The differences in the numbers are interesting. I also suspect the Remington version would also be easier to work up very accurate loads due to the pressures being more "attuned" with modern powders.

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mchughcb
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #315689 - 27/04/18 03:46 AM

416 remington brass is very hard to get. I had to order Norma just to reload and at $4/case its not cheap. Maybe if we cpuld get the cheaper hornady is give it a go but alas after waiting 6 months it was never imported by the wholesaler.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: mchughcb]
      #315703 - 27/04/18 07:42 AM

Quote:

416 remington brass is very hard to get. I had to order Norma just to reload and at $4/case its not cheap. Maybe if we cpuld get the cheaper hornady is give it a go but alas after waiting 6 months it was never imported by the wholesaler.




I stumpled into 500 new cases in a pawn shop a few years back..plus have shot a .416 for years..but yes, agree, not so easy to come by any more..but can also use Rem 8MM as well I believe..

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315706 - 27/04/18 08:08 AM

Why not use .375H&H brass? There are only a few of my rifles have brass with the proper head stamp. Even my .222 & .17Rem. has some .223 brass.

I even used .375H&H brass for my 9.5x68. wildcat.

My .375/06IMP brass, has .25/06, .270, .280, .30/06 and .35 Whelen headstamps.

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"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #315708 - 27/04/18 08:32 AM

Quote:

Interesting, I came to the same conclusions many years ago, if simply basing on factory ammo.
The differences in the numbers are interesting. I also suspect the Remington version would also be easier to work up very accurate loads due to the pressures being more "attuned" with modern powders.

http://kwk.us/pressures.html




Not quite with the accurate loads. I have a Rigby and all 400 to 410 grain projectiles I have tried throw to the same point at 100 and under the inch. This includes the Woodleigh Hydros which would eat into the powder space in the 416Rem. I have only used two powders, AR2209 and AR2213sc and again both to the same point of impact. The 2209 kicks less and is cleaner so it is what I use. Then again CZ make rifles that just seem to shoot.

I prefer the Rigby, probably because of the history and it just works but If I could only have the Rem 416 I wouldn't be cursing.


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Postman
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Rule303]
      #315716 - 27/04/18 09:50 AM

potaytoe potattow.

I like the Rigby myself. No good reason other than its cool and thats what I have. Lots of case capacity, no belt, and its cool.

All the .416s sling bullets of sufficient sectional density and weight sufficient to give DG a bad day, and will reach out pretty dang far with 350 grain bullets for the smaller stuff.

Action size? Bolt throw length? Just practice. Extra weight? eat your wheaties in the morning - weight reduces recoil.


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Wayne59
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Postman]
      #315721 - 27/04/18 12:00 PM

I generally try to stay away from the word magnum. It usually means more powder, more recoil to do the same job.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Wayne59]
      #315741 - 27/04/18 11:00 PM

Those looking for brass for the Rem..it appears MIDWAY has it available..

https://www.midwayusa.com/416-remington-magnum/br?cid=7403

As does MIDSOUTH SHOOTERS...

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/rifle-brass/416-remington

along with a whole host of other sites on the Web..

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315744 - 27/04/18 11:07 PM

Agree with the comments..the Rigby certainly has the cool factor... from a more practical note, feel the nod goes to the Rem...

One item no one has mentioned but I did find on several of my hunts to Zim..the 416 Rem. is used by a fair amount of PH's.. most camps I was at, one or more of the PH's had .416 REM ammo laying around somewhere. If you ran low or your ammo just didn't show up as it was being held hostage either in the airport in Paris or on some morons desk in customs...

IMHO, they both have a place..and, in my experience, they are way more effective on buffalo than the 375H&H...very noticeable difference on the effect of the game hit with it .. was actually shocked in the difference.. they both will kill..BUT, I like the initial "shock and awe" factor the buffalo seem to feel when hit by the .416...

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Edited by Ripp (28/04/18 10:57 AM)


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szihn
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315795 - 29/04/18 12:44 AM

Both have about the same ballistics. The Rigby is cool in that it's classic and warms the hearts of those of us that love the old guns.

But as far as any being "better" in the field, I doubt there is a nickels worth of difference. 416 bullet of 400 grains at 2350 to 2450.

Myself, .........my favorite 416 is the Taylor. Same bullet at 2350 to 2380 FPS. BUT---------- It fits on a standard length GEW Mauser. So it carry's nicely in the hand compared to the Magnum Mauser with the drop magazines (like my 404) And it uses nicked down 458 brass which is easy to get, and a lot less expensive.

From the "gunsmiths prospective" the 416 Taylor gives you a real Mauser action and all the reliability that it entails, with the same barrel as the Rigby or Remington, in a slimmer gun that you can get with the Rigby and the controlled feed you do not get with the M700. If a custom rifle has (as an example) a $3000 budget and I am asked to build a 416 Rigby I have to factor in the cost of an action that is suitable for that shell, or do sever modification on a Standard Mauser and add a very expensive drop-mag to it (Like Harry Selby's 416 Rigby was). So before I buy a piece of wood or a barrel blank I am into the action for $750 and sometimes up to $1400. So about 1/2 of the budget is already gone. Add even a plain piece of hard walnut at about $175, and a barrel blank at $150, express sights at $170 front and rear and if you want a band front sight and swivel you can expect to add not $170 for sights but about $265. Then add a pad and grip cap, forend tip and we are ready to start work, But the money left for ALL the work is now only about 1/2 the budget at best for a very plane rifle and if you go top of the line on your parts you will eat up nearly all your budget before the labor even starts.

Now if we start with a GEW Mauser at about $175, instead of a Magnum Mauser at $750 to $1400 you can see it leaves a LOT more of the budget for other parts and for labor as well as better wood, and when the rifle is done it is as slick and reliable as any the world has ever seen, shoots the same bullet at the same speed as the Rigby was so famous for, carries easier and is about a pound lighter. In short the 416 Taylor is the best value in a 416 rifle you can get, buy a wide margin. And it uses dies that cost less, uses less powder, and less expensive brass. that all means more shooting for the dollar and shooting a rifle a LOT is the thing that makes you a better marksman.

I have made a handful of 416 Rigbys and several 416 Remingtons as well as one 416 Weatherby. All of them came out very nicely. All were loved by the customers and I personally played with one of the 416 Rigbys for about a year, but having done them all, I am convinced the Taylor is the best one of the bunch for the real hunter.

Just my 2 cents worth
other will disagree. And that 100% cool. It's what keeps me in business.


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bwanabobftw
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315798 - 29/04/18 03:39 AM

I've had several 416 Rigby's and I love that cartridge. Shot quite a bit of African game with it from Buffalo down. But, I also had a 416 Taylor, and I agree with Steve, it may be the best of all. I still have 2 custom Rigby's but I foolishly sold my Taylor. Has anyone mentioned the passing of Harry Selby ?? Without the mention of his Rigby in the "Horn of the Hunter", I doubt we would be talking about the 416 Rigby. Just my 2 cents
Robert


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rigbymauser
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #315818 - 29/04/18 06:29 PM

I have found the mid .40cal is neither fowl or fish. The .416Rigby is a good cartridge but...its not a stopping class caliber here one would need more bulletweight and caliber. It´s not an ideal caliber for plainsgame either. One doesn´t need that much power to bring down animals up to eland size. The .416Rigby has longrange potential because of its case design...but big game are not shot at long range..it´s shot at close range where I see a heavy double is better. For long range plains game shooting a .338win, 270wea etc is better choice. Yes the .416Rigby can max it´s longrange potential with a 300grain spitzer bullet loaded up to .416Wea performance...but the 300Win mag will do the same on any antilope....and with a lighter rifle. The .416Rigby is versatile because bulletweights from 250-450grain is offered. However if I had to shoot 250grain bullets I wouldn`t use the .416Rigby I would use the .338...and if I had to shoot 450grain bullets I would go for bigger caliber because then it would be needed.
If I were today to have a mid .40cal rifle a .404Jeffery would become my choice. It can be made on a stand length Mauser action and build lighter.

Edited by rigbymauser (29/04/18 06:36 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315845 - 30/04/18 07:46 AM

Rigbymauser the only draw back to using standard length Mauser actions today are the monometal bullets. They would have to be seated way to deep and you loose a lot of powder space.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315860 - 30/04/18 10:55 PM

Quote:

I have found the mid .40cal is neither fowl or fish. The .416Rigby is a good cartridge but...its not a stopping class caliber here one would need more bulletweight and caliber. It´s not an ideal caliber for plainsgame either. One doesn´t need that much power to bring down animals up to eland size. The .416Rigby has longrange potential because of its case design...but big game are not shot at long range..it´s shot at close range where I see a heavy double is better. For long range plains game shooting a .338win, 270wea etc is better choice. Yes the .416Rigby can max it´s longrange potential with a 300grain spitzer bullet loaded up to .416Wea performance...but the 300Win mag will do the same on any antilope....and with a lighter rifle. The .416Rigby is versatile because bulletweights from 250-450grain is offered. However if I had to shoot 250grain bullets I wouldn`t use the .416Rigby I would use the .338...and if I had to shoot 450grain bullets I would go for bigger caliber because then it would be needed.
If I were today to have a mid .40cal rifle a .404Jeffery would become my choice. It can be made on a stand length Mauser action and build lighter.




I find your comments could also be the same for the .375H&H...maybe isn't perfect for anything but will work on anything as well

Personally have used the .416 to stop a pissed off tuskless elephant at 16 yards in 2008..have used it on impala, bushbuck, warthog, kudu, eland, several cape buffalo, lion, and elephant..on the smaller game I was expected a massive damage however was not the case..bullets being used acted like a solid..small hole in and out.. cape buffalo were bowled over like being hit by a truck.. elephant took one shot to the brain, lights out...

As you stated there is very little to no long range shooting in certain parts of Africa which is what I found in Zimbabwe. Longest shot I have ever taken there was 262 yards..shot a bushbuck with my 416 Rem shooting 400 gr Swift A-Frames.. worked just fine..most all other shots I have taken over there have been 100 or less..

As to using a 270W for hunting plains game in Africa..I say good luck, but best have your affairs in order just incase..you maybe hunting plains game, however there are other species out there that fail to recognize that..buff, elephant, etc..that 270 looks really really small when you come face to face with a buff at 30 yards..or a pissed off tuskless cow elephant with a calf...Each to their own, but based on my experiences over there I will never hunt with anything less than a .375H&H period... plains game or not..

Appreciate the points, but personally, will stick with the .416...As Steve stated in his post, others will disagree, and that too is 100% cool.. after all , it keeps Steve in business..

Ripp

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Postman
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315862 - 30/04/18 11:14 PM

Quote:

I have found the mid .40cal is neither fowl or fish. The .416Rigby is a good cartridge but...its not a stopping class caliber here one would need more bulletweight and caliber. It´s not an ideal caliber for plainsgame either. One doesn´t need that much power to bring down animals up to eland size. The .416Rigby has longrange potential because of its case design...but big game are not shot at long range..it´s shot at close range where I see a heavy double is better. For long range plains game shooting a .338win, 270wea etc is better choice. Yes the .416Rigby can max it´s longrange potential with a 300grain spitzer bullet loaded up to .416Wea performance...but the 300Win mag will do the same on any antilope....and with a lighter rifle. The .416Rigby is versatile because bulletweights from 250-450grain is offered. However if I had to shoot 250grain bullets I wouldn`t use the .416Rigby I would use the .338...and if I had to shoot 450grain bullets I would go for bigger caliber because then it would be needed.
If I were today to have a mid .40cal rifle a .404Jeffery would become my choice. It can be made on a stand length Mauser action and build lighter.




The .416 is a compromise caliber and there’s nothing wrong with that. My .338 won’t legally take buffalo, and my .500NE double is range limited for hunting plains game.

If I want a single rifle safari battery, the .416 is ideal when large DG is on the menu. The power and penetration is superb and the range can be really stretched for smaller game simply by changing bullets....... It’s much easier to take two or three types of bullets, i.e. 340 grain PPSP for plains game, and 410 grain softs and solids for the big stuff than it is to lug two or three rifles half way around the world....... I’m a rifle nut with a safe that is leaking rifles of all manner of calibers and actions, but I don’t want to lug them all around with me at the same time.

Sure, there is a good degree of specialization in caliber and rifle choice, but when a broad spectrum of applications is expected on a given outing, then compromise is the magic word........


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rigbymauser
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Postman]
      #315866 - 01/05/18 12:07 AM

If I went on a plains game hunt I wouldn´t use a .40 cal rifle.
If I went on a dangerous game hunt I wouldn't use a .40cal rifle.

I know Harry Selby(and others) used a .416Rigby for everything so I know it`s not a bad caliber.

Edited by rigbymauser (01/05/18 12:11 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315870 - 01/05/18 01:05 AM

While ahead of the .375H&H ballistics in thumping game, the .40's are still hunting rifles, just as the .375 is a 'legal' hunting rifle. They are 'all round' hunting rifles for Africa. but big dangerous game and plains game alike. They need to be fed ammo that shoots alike, but covers the requisite duties.
Stoppers?, no - they are hunting rifles and as such, are easier to hit accurately with and thus, with perfect shot placement, they should never have to be used as stoppers.

After all, that is what the PH is for, is it not - in an emergency situation, he sorts out the trouble with the stopping calibre.

Do YOUR stuff, learn your gun and hit correctly - that is all you have to do and a hunting rifle is what is best for that game, not a stopping rifle. imho of course.

Buddy of mine is headed to Africa soon, and will be packing his .375 Ruger or .375H&H, not sure which, along with likely his favourite 8x68S. His wife will likely pack her new favourite, a .270 with TTSX loads.

He is deadly accurate with both & long range is not a negative factor with either- he's the best game shot I have ever seen. She shoots very well too - last elk over 400yards, one shot DRT & she has an excellent coach.

If he uses more than one shot per any animal, it will only be because the PH asks him to shoot again.

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Daryl


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Postman
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315880 - 01/05/18 08:11 AM

Quote:

If I went on a plains game hunt I wouldn´t use a .40 cal rifle.
If I went on a dangerous game hunt I wouldn't use a .40cal rifle.

I know Harry Selby(and others) used a .416Rigby for everything so I know it`s not a bad caliber.




And nor should you waver from your convictions!!! My next buffalo hunt will be with a .458 Lott and it will include plains game that I will also apply the Lott for..... I would prefer a .416 for the dual purpose but I want to use my .458 and will only bring one rifle. Buffalo is the primary goal, but I want a kudu and a zebra as well this time around..... I agree with Daryl re: hunting vs PH perspective.... My rifles are chosen from a hunter’s perspective. I believe the .416 is a great stopping rifle, maybe less so than a .500NE, but in either case, shot placement is the key

Edited by Postman (01/05/18 08:13 AM)


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mchughcb
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Postman]
      #315894 - 01/05/18 06:13 PM

I find tbe 416 remington adequate for foxes, even with reduced loads.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315909 - 01/05/18 11:10 PM

Quote:

Both have about the same ballistics. The Rigby is cool in that it's classic and warms the hearts of those of us that love the old guns.

But as far as any being "better" in the field, I doubt there is a nickels worth of difference. 416 bullet of 400 grains at 2350 to 2450.

Myself, .........my favorite 416 is the Taylor. Same bullet at 2350 to 2380 FPS. BUT---------- It fits on a standard length GEW Mauser. So it carry's nicely in the hand compared to the Magnum Mauser with the drop magazines (like my 404) And it uses nicked down 458 brass which is easy to get, and a lot less expensive.


In short the 416 Taylor is the best value in a 416 rifle you can get, buy a wide margin. And it uses dies that cost less, uses less powder, and less expensive brass. that all means more shooting for the dollar and shooting a rifle a LOT is the thing that makes you a better marksman.

Just my 2 cents worth
other will disagree. And that 100% cool. It's what keeps me in business.




Steve'
Curious about the .416 Taylor? Have read about this..seen info on NE numerous times, etc..but have never checked it out thoroughly.. As you are a gunsmith..wondering why you feel its the best of the best ??? Never know, IMHO, can never have too many .416's..

Is it more a matter of price? As the .416 Rem can be purchased on controlled round feed actions as well..I have a new Winchester model 70 in my gun room..still in the box actually...

Just curious is all..
thx
Ripp

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szihn
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315939 - 02/05/18 11:08 AM

Hi Ripp, I got your PM. I just mailed you back.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315948 - 02/05/18 05:51 PM

I always thought the .416 Rigby was significantly faster in velocity than the .416 Remington Magnum, by about 200 to 300 fps?

Don't own either of them.

And the .416 Chatfield-Taylor did around 2050 to 2100 fps with a 400 gr projectile. Very similar performance to the .450/400 NE ballistics.

Haven't read the article yet.

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John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315949 - 02/05/18 05:55 PM

Quote:

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2018/4/20/head-to-head-416-rigby-vs-416-remington-magnum/




Quote:

From its release in 1911 until the beginning of WWII, there were less than two hundred .416 Rigbys made, yet it had developed a great reputation among the serious hunters in East Africa.




Interesting the current Rigby's had around 150 "Big Game" model Rigby's most in .416 ordered in the first twelve months of operation. From an expectation of only 50 being sold.

Evidence of how the new Rigby is so successful compared to even the old Rigby of vintage times which created the brand. Continuing the brand with great strength and vigour.

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John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315950 - 02/05/18 06:06 PM

Quote:

One item no one has mentioned but I did find on several of my hunts to Zim..the 416 Rem. is used by a fair amount of PH's.. most camps I was at, one or more of the PH's had .416 REM ammo laying around somewhere. If you ran low or your ammo just didn't show up as it was being held hostage either in the airport in Paris or on some morons desk in customs...




There are some reasons why PHs often use the .416 Renm Mag.

1. They are left handed and the Rem 700 LH in .416 Rem Mag is the best LH rifle they can afford.

2. The Rem 700 is cheapish and PHs and appy PHs don't make a lot of money. So they get a reasonably effective cartridge in a cheap rifle.

Most would have a far better rifle and chambering if they could afford it.

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John aka NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #315961 - 02/05/18 10:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

One item no one has mentioned but I did find on several of my hunts to Zim..the 416 Rem. is used by a fair amount of PH's.. most camps I was at, one or more of the PH's had .416 REM ammo laying around somewhere. If you ran low or your ammo just didn't show up as it was being held hostage either in the airport in Paris or on some morons desk in customs...




There are some reasons why PHs often use the .416 Renm Mag.

1. They are left handed and the Rem 700 LH in .416 Rem Mag is the best LH rifle they can afford.

2. The Rem 700 is cheapish and PHs and appy PHs don't make a lot of money. So they get a reasonably effective cartridge in a cheap rifle.

Most would have a far better rifle and chambering if they could afford it.



---


Several in Zim actually had them for clients to use should their rifles not show up..or, as a back up for the PH's main carry should an issue arise with their main rifle..

Not all were Remington's..I do agree, however the ammo at the time was more readily available and cheaper than the Rigby variety..was another reason told to me..

Finally the PH's I visited with felt the .416 was adequate for anything you bump into while out in the bush..and, up to this point, my experience has been just that... I have other calibers as well including .458W and 470 Nitro..but, really find the .416 about ideal for everything I have used it for to this point..due to an issue on my first hunt to Zim I used it for everything I hunted from small plains game up to buffalo..

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #315962 - 02/05/18 10:40 PM

Quote:

I always thought the .416 Rigby was significantly faster in velocity than the .416 Remington Magnum, by about 200 to 300 fps?

Don't own either of them.

And the .416 Chatfield-Taylor did around 2050 to 2100 fps with a 400 gr projectile. Very similar performance to the .450/400 NE ballistics.

Haven't read the article yet.




The Rem and Rigby are almost identical in velocity when purchased..reloading can be a different story..The Rigby has a larger case so more space for more powder..however the Rigby is loaded to lower pressures than the Remington..as least that is my understanding and what I have read... Part of where the comments the Remington cases might be stuck when I hot weather which personally I feel is bs... I have hunted in temps in excess of 110F with no issues..with a standard REM rifle ..

More info regarding this below..
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=313848&an=0&page=0#Post313848

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szihn
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315968 - 02/05/18 11:48 PM

Just a side note here.

The Taylor loads I used were fully the equal of the original Rigby loads. Pressure is the same as a 30-06 or 300 Win mag. Quite a bit higher then the pressure of the 1920s Rigby cartridges, but that doesn't matter because almost all shells used today run the same pressure as the Taylor including the 30-06 7MM Mag, 338 mag, and 375 H&H.
Here is a link to look over the loads. Go to page 16.

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri38partial.pdf


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315971 - 03/05/18 01:22 AM

I remember vividly, that article by J.Wooters. I think I still have that very issue in the 'stuff' packed away now for the move. Might even have a few from '68/9'.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315979 - 03/05/18 03:42 AM

Quote:

Just a side note here.

The Taylor loads I used were fully the equal of the original Rigby loads. Pressure is the same as a 30-06 or 300 Win mag. Quite a bit higher then the pressure of the 1920s Rigby cartridges, but that doesn't matter because almost all shells used today run the same pressure as the Taylor including the 30-06 7MM Mag, 338 mag, and 375 H&H.
Here is a link to look over the loads. Go to page 16.

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri38partial.pdf




Thanks for posting this Steve and thank you for the pm you sent with all the info..

Appreciate it

Ripp

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Rule303
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #315990 - 03/05/18 10:06 AM

Re the Taylor.

This is a Woodleigh 416 cal 400grain Hydro fired from my Rigby. Muzzle velocity 2550fps it achieves this velocity with the same powder charge as the 410 Woodleigh Soft nose that gets 2450 fps. Entered chest of Buff at 50mts stopped just short of the skin in the rump, after going through the pelvic bone as well. My point is these seat fairly deep as do other monometals like Barnes. So if you want to use these and get some workable velocities out of them, I would suggest you will need an action capable of taking a 375H&H length case or a wide body case like the 416Ruger simply because you will loose a lot of the needed powder space in the 30-06 length action.



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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Rule303]
      #315996 - 03/05/18 12:35 PM

Quote:

Re the Taylor.

This is a Woodleigh 416 cal 400grain Hydro fired from my Rigby. Muzzle velocity 2550fps it achieves this velocity with the same powder charge as the 410 Woodleigh Soft nose that gets 2450 fps. Entered chest of Buff at 50mts stopped just short of the skin in the rump, after going through the pelvic bone as well. My point is these seat fairly deep as do other monometals like Barnes. So if you want to use these and get some workable velocities out of them, I would suggest you will need an action capable of taking a 375H&H length case or a wide body case like the 416Ruger simply because you will loose a lot of the needed powder space in the 30-06 length action.






That is impressive performance--thank you so much for posting..

My fist buff I shot in Zim was all riled up..we have been chasing him on foot, off and on for a little over 3 hours..finally got a shot into his chest..he turned and ran away..but it was a clearing..dumped 3 Barnes solids into his rump..we only recovered 1 of the 3..the others exited the neck area..had those loaded with a mv around 2450fps... have always been impressed with the penetration of bullets like that..

Ripp

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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #316001 - 03/05/18 01:47 PM

I have never made a 416 Ruger, but when I look at the case I believe it may be as good or better then the Taylor, for all the same reasons. The 458 brass you make the Taylor from is likely to be easier to get and way cheaper then the 416 Ruger brass, but with no hands-on knowledge, I can't say for sure.

Anyone out there have any feedback for me on the Ruger?

So maybe I should modify my earlier statement that "in my opinion the 416 Taylor is the best of the bunch" to "the 416 Taylor or 416 Ruger are probably the 2 best of the lot".

Keep in mind, I am speaking from the standpoint of building rifles. Not from buying a factory available rifle. If I were to buy one I'd probably just buy a 416 Remington in a Winchester, CZ or a Ruger and be done with it.


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #316002 - 03/05/18 01:48 PM

John
Your stats on the .416 Taylor are way off the mark. My 1991 vintage Zastava actioned rifle has no trouble achieving 2400fps with the 410gn Woodleigh bullet. I have fired several hundred at my favourite load of 2360fps using AR2206H (H4895 in the US). I also get 2250fps with the 450gn bullet using AR2208 (Varget). My Winchester cases (.458W) have been fired at more than five times using these loads.... I neck size for three loadings & only use once fired cases when chasing big stuff.

I know the .416 Remington is a bit better when handloaded but it is a long way from the Rigby which easily achieves 2600fps with the 410gn bullet if you can hang on to it!!

My rifle is 8.5lbs without a scope & magnaported, I have no trouble catching up to fleeing pigs with this outfit... I don't feel real comfortable with the notion of chasing dangerous game with a 10lb bolt gun. I think Szihn is on the money with his comments!

Rule 303 am interested in your experiences with the Hydro, especially the extra length... I am about to load some for Water Buff, I see they are slightly longer than the 450gn softs I use & my commercial action feeds up to COL 2.400".


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: coll416]
      #316013 - 03/05/18 07:53 PM

Quote:

John
Your stats on the .416 Taylor are way off the mark.




No doubt. I was remarking off "arm chair expertise", and remember a discussion on A R where 'experts' were disparaging the .416 Chatfield-Taylor as too weak at approx 2,100 fps while in different threads the same 'experts' claimed the .450/400 was deadly(!) at similar velocities.

Different people using different loads, rifles, powders can get quite different results sometimes. And your expertise is hands on and real. Good to read of the much better velocities.

I came close to getting a .416 Chatfield-Taylor in the mid 1990's, when Brian Harre of NZ offered to build me a takedown rifle in .416, as well as .338 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag. Three barrels and forends. Using a Win M70 rifle as the platform. Never sourced a suitable controlled feed M70 and the project evaporated. Would have been a useful system. Instead many years later acquired my Mauser M03 with barrels in .404, 8x68S, 6.5x65, and .222. For the same sort of concept and world use.. So far my .222 has had the lions share of use, but planning the .404 and maybe the 8x68S will get a run this year in the Top End.

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Rule303
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: coll416]
      #316016 - 03/05/18 08:01 PM

Quote:

John
Your stats on the .416 Taylor are way off the mark. My 1991 vintage Zastava actioned rifle has no trouble achieving 2400fps with the 410gn Woodleigh bullet. I have fired several hundred at my favourite load of 2360fps using AR2206H (H4895 in the US). I also get 2250fps with the 450gn bullet using AR2208 (Varget). My Winchester cases (.458W) have been fired at more than five times using these loads.... I neck size for three loadings & only use once fired cases when chasing big stuff.

I know the .416 Remington is a bit better when handloaded but it is a long way from the Rigby which easily achieves 2600fps with the 410gn bullet if you can hang on to it!!

My rifle is 8.5lbs without a scope & magnaported, I have no trouble catching up to fleeing pigs with this outfit... I don't feel real comfortable with the notion of chasing dangerous game with a 10lb bolt gun. I think Szihn is on the money with his comments!

Rule 303 am interested in your experiences with the Hydro, especially the extra length... I am about to load some for Water Buff, I see they are slightly longer than the 450gn softs I use & my commercial action feeds up to COL 2.400".




Col the Hydro is way better then a solid, when a solid is required. However when a soft nose is required not as good as the soft but better than a standard solid. Sort of a cross between the 2.

They are a bore rider with the bands being bands not a cut into the shank as some monometals so I seat them out so the first band is just shy of the lands, mag length permitting. The shank still protrudes a fair bit into the case. If you go to the Woodleigh web sight they list the length of the projectiles.

The newer Hydros have the green cap to improve feeding and are longer with the first band further forward, as such, they will sit deeper into the case. I had my CZ550 feed rails and ramp altered so the exposed tip Hydros functioned well. You should have no problem with them feeding now as they are capped.

I did load some 225grain 358Hydros into my Whelen but did not record the overall length. Was going to give you an idea of how they fit into a 30-06 length action. You might be able to use a faster powder?

As a mate that has shot Waterbuff with them in a 9.3X62 said. Just load up with Hydro's and go shoot them.

Steve, forget about the 416 Ruger, look at the 338 Norma magnum and neck up to 416. This and their 300 Norma mag- not 308 Norma mag- are use a shortened 416Rigby case. Not as easy for gunsmithing but will handle the the longer projectiles without losing velocity or jacking up pressures.


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: coll416]
      #316018 - 03/05/18 08:10 PM

Quote:

I know the .416 Remington is a bit better when handloaded but it is a long way from the Rigby which easily achieves 2600fps with the 410gn bullet if you can hang on to it!!




And this comment confirms my opinion that the .416 Rigby and .416 Remington are not velocity equivalent as the article tried to assume.

Of course any rifle pushing a 400 gr projectile at velocities in excess of 2100 fpos is effective and reaching 2400 fps or more, very effective.

--------------------
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #316022 - 03/05/18 09:44 PM

The Rigby is a MASSIVE case and the .416 Rem is not. the Rem is a higher pressure, high intensity cartridge and handloading can only go so far until case capacity runs out and pressures become unsafe. The big Rigby has a huge case capacity and if loaded to similar pressures as the Remington will produce higher velocity given that it is burning buckets full of powder. Mind you, there is a law of diminishing returns where the large helpings of powder won’t produce a linear increase in velocity, but velocities will be higher in the Rigby none the less. Recoil and muzzle blast will also dramatically increase. The .416 Weatherby is a similar beast but the factory takes the liberty of hot rodding the Weatherby.

Factory loads do not full take advantage of the Rigby’s case size, but a handloader certainly can - if you dare hang on to it.

At the end of the day, John is correct when he states that anything over 2100 FPS is pretty serious medicine, so how much does one need? If one wants, then that is fine too.

Edited by Postman (03/05/18 09:47 PM)


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Postman]
      #316026 - 03/05/18 10:03 PM

How does the .416 Dakota fit in the mix? Using the .404 case. Does it require a magnum length action or can a standard action still be used?

I believe its claimed velocity is fairly up there as well?

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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #316044 - 04/05/18 01:40 AM

.416 Weatherby Magnum

This ctg. and the Rigby are very close to being the same thing - aside from one having a belt and the other being a rimless ctg. Chambered in the same rifle, they are very close in ballistics, if loaded to the same pressures, ie: safe maximum working loads of the WTBY's standard = 65,000PSI.

The article was referring to factory ammo only - and in that, ballistically, the Rigby and .416Rem. are the same - and the .416 Taylor matches them.

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

In the kwk pressure data, three of these .416's have working maximums of 65,000psi. The "OLD" .416 Rigby is listed as 52,000psi by SAAMI and 47,000psi by CIP.

Given an appropriate action, there is 0 reason the .416 Rigby cannot be handloaded to the same 65,000psi - if "one" thought that was necessary.

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coll416
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #316052 - 04/05/18 10:00 AM

John
I could not source a decent controlled round action suitable for .416 Rigby within my budget back in '91, I was not enthused by the Remington or Ruger rifles on offer at the time. Uncle Nick ran an article about 1990 about the .416 Taylor with plenty of load data. I started with an unwanted Zastava .458 & re-barrelled.

You will love the .404, I would choose this chambering if it were today, the.404 can be loaded to much more power if you so desire!

I agree that anything over 2100fps with a 400gn projectile is plenty for buff & wild cattle. I have found the Woodleigh softs more reliable penetrators when impact velocity is 2100-2200fps just as they advise.


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: coll416]
      #316065 - 04/05/18 04:25 PM

Quote:

I agree that anything over 2100fps with a 400gn projectile is plenty for buff & wild cattle. I have found the Woodleigh softs more reliable penetrators when impact velocity is 2100-2200fps just as they advise.




For water buffalo, scrub bulls, banteng and cape buffalo, I have used my .450 NE double, my 9.3x74R double and my .375 H&H bolt action. 480 grs, 287 grs and 300 grs respectively. About twenty beasts between them all, not a lot by some standards, biut still enough to make a showing.

All of the above work. I know from personal experience with the last water buff, there can be times when even a .450 NE does make a bloody buff flinch, when he is coming for you ... Usually they work well enough, a small amount of times the circumstances mean the bigger the better. A reason I was told by one Territorian on NE, why he no longer uses his 6.5mm Mannlicher for just that reason ...

The .404, the .416s are in the middle of the above range. No reason why they won't work well, in the right bullet in the right places. Probably the best calibre choice for bovines using a bolt action, and not in very close bush or jungle.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #316085 - 04/05/18 10:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I agree that anything over 2100fps with a 400gn projectile is plenty for buff & wild cattle. I have found the Woodleigh softs more reliable penetrators when impact velocity is 2100-2200fps just as they advise.




For water buffalo, scrub bulls, banteng and cape buffalo, I have used my .450 NE double, my 9.3x74R double and my .375 H&H bolt action. 480 grs, 287 grs and 300 grs respectively. About twenty beasts between them all, not a lot by some standards, biut still enough to make a showing.

All of the above work. I know from personal experience with the last water buff, there can be times when even a .450 NE does make a bloody buff flinch, when he is coming for you ... Usually they work well enough, a small amount of times the circumstances mean the bigger the better. A reason I was told by one Territorian on NE, why he no longer uses his 6.5mm Mannlicher for just that reason ...

The .404, the .416s are in the middle of the above range. No reason why they won't work well, in the right bullet in the right places. Probably the best calibre choice for bovines using a bolt action, and not in very close bush or jungle.




I too have often thought of a .404..if for nothing else, it has a cool factor as well as perhaps a bit handier rifle as stated earlier in this post..

Will not give me anything the .416's do, but, can never have too many guns...

Pulled this off of the web...

The.404 Jeffery is a large-caliber, rimless cartridge designed for large, dangerous game, such as the "Big Five" of Africa. Other names for this cartridge include.404 Jeffery Rimless, .404 Rimless Nitro Express, and 10.75× 73mm. It was created by W.J. Jeffery & Co of England based on their desire to duplicate performance of the.450/400 cartridge. There are two basically similar sets of dimensions for this case, depending on the manufacturer. The.404 Jeffery as originally loaded fired a.423" diameter bullet of either 300 gr with a muzzle velocity of 2,600 ft/s and muzzle energy of 4,500 foot-pounds force or 400 gr with a muzzle velocity of 2,125 ft/s and 4,020 foot-pounds force of energy. It is very effective on large game and is favored by many hunters of dangerous game. Performance and recoil are similar to other African dangerous game cartridges. The.404 Jeffery was popular with hunters and game wardens in Africa because it gave good performance with a manageable level of recoil. By way of comparison, the.416 Rigby and.416 Remington Magnum both fire a 400 grain.416 in bullet at 2,400 feet per second with a muzzle energy of approximately 5,000 foot-pounds force, which handily exceeds the ballistic performance of the.404 Jeffery but at the price of greater recoil and, in the case of the.416 Rigby, rifles that are significantly more expensive.

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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #316114 - 05/05/18 02:31 PM

To my eyes the 404J requires a magnum length action to get the best out of it. Rigby case length is 2.90inch, the 404 is 2.87inch. Yes the 404 can and is shoehorned into opened standard length Mausers but you restrict the performance doing this.

I was tossing up between a 416Rigby and 404J. The CZ550 in Rigby was $1600 and the 404 was a couple of thou more.


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Rule303]
      #316123 - 05/05/18 11:47 PM

Seems to me, the .404 should be able to make 2,400fps with 400's and rather easily - of course, all the normal requirements or good action, brass & careful loading.

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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #316136 - 06/05/18 06:44 AM

It does. In fact the Germans load it that way.
I like to keep mine at about 2250. That's the place it seems to shoot best.


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #316139 - 06/05/18 09:18 AM

A lot easier shooting, too.

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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #316150 - 06/05/18 02:13 PM

Quote:

A lot easier shooting, too.




Certainly is, a bit less powder to achieve the same outcome, a bit more efficient.

The 404J probably has more kids and grand kids than any other case. The RUM's, the Ruger 416 & 375, Dakota stable? are the ones that come readily to mind.


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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #316153 - 06/05/18 04:34 PM

Quote:

Pulled this off of the web...

The.404 Jeffery is a large-caliber, rimless cartridge designed for large, dangerous game, such as the "Big Five" of Africa. Other names for this cartridge include.404 Jeffery Rimless, .404 Rimless Nitro Express, and 10.75× 73mm. It was created by W.J. Jeffery & Co of England based on their desire to duplicate performance of the.450/400 cartridge. There are two basically similar sets of dimensions for this case, depending on the manufacturer. The.404 Jeffery as originally loaded fired a.423" diameter bullet of either 300 gr with a muzzle velocity of 2,600 ft/s and muzzle energy of 4,500 foot-pounds force or 400 gr with a muzzle velocity of 2,125 ft/s and 4,020 foot-pounds force of energy. It is very effective on large game and is favored by many hunters of dangerous game. Performance and recoil are similar to other African dangerous game cartridges. The.404 Jeffery was popular with hunters and game wardens in Africa because it gave good performance with a manageable level of recoil. By way of comparison, the.416 Rigby and.416 Remington Magnum both fire a 400 grain.416 in bullet at 2,400 feet per second with a muzzle energy of approximately 5,000 foot-pounds force, which handily exceeds the ballistic performance of the.404 Jeffery but at the price of greater recoil and, in the case of the.416 Rigby, rifles that are significantly more expensive.




This idiot writer uses .404 Jeffery ballistics from 1910 to .416 Rem ballistics from 2010, and thinks it is a valid comparison ....

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #316176 - 07/05/18 08:45 AM

Another article discussing more calibers in addition to those on this post...

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/gallery-ten-best-dangerous-game-cartridges

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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