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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Remington
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Spain
458 Winchester Magnum
      #305178 - 12/09/17 12:54 AM

Hi, I am very intrigued by these cartridges. Several cartridges of the 458 Winchester Magnum were in my hands and they do not really look so great in my hand. It seems untrue that one can feel safe with a rifle of this cartridge in front of an animal like the elephant. Even the mythical H & H Magnum with its large brass is more intimidating. What experiences do you have with the "small" 458 Winchester Magnum?

Remington.

--------------------
Punctuality is respect for the time of others.


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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Remington]
      #305180 - 12/09/17 01:11 AM

My experience is limited to testing the 500 grain Hornady solids on a large hackberry tree back in the day. The rifle was a Browning safari which belonged to an older friend and we did our shooting by car light in the dead of night on another friend's farm. The 500 grain solids easily went through a tree about 2 feet in diameter. I don't think you need to worry about a lack of killing power (or recoil!) with this cartridge loaded with modern powders and bullets. Harry Selby seemed to like it just fine in a push feed post 64 Model 70. The size is a plus I think and the cartridge is attractive and feels good in the hand. I'd say it's worthy of being called a modern classic.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Remington]
      #305186 - 12/09/17 03:18 AM

Quote:

Hi, I am very intrigued by these cartridges. Several cartridges of the 458 Winchester Magnum were in my hands and they do not really look so great in my hand. It seems untrue that one can feel safe with a rifle of this cartridge in front of an animal like the elephant. Even the mythical H & H Magnum with its large brass is more intimidating. What experiences do you have with the "small" 458 Winchester Magnum?

Remington.




there was a post very recently on this very topic you may want to search for on this site..look at the 458 LOTT thread --one thread away from this one when under the same heading of Big Bore Rifles..

General consensus was with today's powder and bullets available, the .458 is a very formidable round, always has been for the most part.. and even more so today..

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (12/09/17 03:32 AM)


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Remington
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Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 40
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #305187 - 12/09/17 03:53 AM

Thanks to both. I would like to have occasion to test a WM 458 and test its power. Mr. Ripp, I have some law of that thread and intervened, for I am almost completely deprived of Mr. Lott's cartridge. That's why I was encouraged to start this topic to get a first-hand experience of forum members with this "little" big bore.

Thank you again

Remington.

--------------------
Punctuality is respect for the time of others.


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ovny
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Remington]
      #305198 - 12/09/17 06:17 AM

Hello Remington, I've had a Lott 458 for years and I have not shot him yet. Let's see if we ever agree and shoot. As far as I know the 458 WM with 2150 fps will knock down any animal on Earth. At the time, the use of a powder not suitable for the climate of Africa and poorly constructed projectiles contributed to create the bad reputation that has had until today. But it is still a great round that today will work perfectly.

Regards.

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: ovny]
      #305221 - 12/09/17 08:29 PM

I don't have a .458 Win Mag, but one of the original cartridges it was designed to emulate, the .450 No. 2 Nitro Express. It fires a 480 gr FMJ at 2,170 fps. And I don't feel any lack of confidence when facing an elephant or buffalo with it.

Even given the fun of my last water buffalo hunt. With elephant you shoot them very close, and so far ... no hubris intended ... have a 2 out of 2 success rate on first shot brain shots. That gives confidence ... now when a buffalo charges, I need to let it get a lot closer before whamming it ... and shooting it properly in the right place rather than hoping ... for those that read the story, first time I had trouble, otherwise no problems for the other dozen plus ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Remington
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: NitroX]
      #305230 - 12/09/17 10:48 PM

Than you for your experience NitroX.

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458Win
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Remington]
      #305251 - 13/09/17 03:25 AM

compared with the 357 and 44 magnum the 45acp doesn't look very intimidating either, but it has earned a serious reputation.

I have used quite a few large bore rounds on game from the 375,404,416's of many flavors, 425,450/400, 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs and the more I used them and saw how they killed the more impressed I became with my 458 Win.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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93mouse
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: 458Win]
      #305253 - 13/09/17 05:53 AM

Remington try to get a hold of book "Ndlovu" by Richard Harland - he shot hundreds of elephants during tsetse fly operatons in Zambezi Valley with his 458 WM Mannlicher Schonauer.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: 93mouse]
      #305255 - 13/09/17 06:19 AM

My PH in Zimbabwe carried a non controlled feed Model 70 Winchester in .458 Win Mag and had no reservations about using it on our cape buffalo hunt. He also used a .460 A-Square and .500 A-Square but they were in Tanzania.

Some have more power and a little more insurance. But they are still all powerful chamerings and still do the job.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Remington
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: 93mouse]
      #305258 - 13/09/17 06:30 AM

Quote:

Remington try to get a hold of book "Ndlovu" by Richard Harland - he shot hundreds of elephants during tsetse fly operatons in Zambezi Valley with his 458 WM Mannlicher Schonauer.




Hi, thank you very much for the suggestion. I point out the advice about the book.

Remington.

--------------------
Punctuality is respect for the time of others.


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szihn
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Remington]
      #305278 - 13/09/17 12:02 PM

Back in the mid 70s I saw that the 458 was the "standard" in 3 Africa countries for game control officers and most professional hunters. Seems all the complaints I ever heard about it were from Americans and never a one from an African hunter.
A 45 caliber 500 grain bullets at 1950fps to 2100fps seems to do what it needs to, and today the better powders and better bullets make it all that it should be and probably more.
I was young then and the light American made M-70s seemed to kick awful hard, so I used a heavier and less powerful 404 Mauser, but all others that used the 458s never seemed to have a single complaint about how well they killed game.
The 404 did everything I ever asked of it perfectly. So I have no doubt the 458 is going to do it all as well or better. If a 400gr 42 cal at 2200 is good, how could a 45 cal 500gr at 2100-2200 be bad, if both use bullets that don't fail?

I personally never used the 458 on African game, but I have seen them used and I know a lot of other men that used it. I never saw or heard of a problem from anyone who I knew personally and other than a few magazine articles I read at one time or another, I have not heard any complaints.

I would have no reservations at all about using one myself.


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Remington
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: szihn]
      #305290 - 13/09/17 03:40 PM

Thanks for your reply. I deduce that the cartridge is enough to knock down the biggest land animals and that its lack of effectiveness was due to a poor choice of components (bullet and powder) and today with the modern components the cartridge perfectly.

Thank you very much

Remington

--------------------
Punctuality is respect for the time of others.


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Ripp
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Remington]
      #305308 - 14/09/17 03:05 AM

Remington
thought you might find this interesting..

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/02/458-winchester-magnum/#axzz4sZycfASH



ONE OF THE QUOTES FROM THIS ARTICLE:

The earliest use of the new round proved somewhat problematic. There were reports of the round not producing the speeds claimed, often leaving the muzzle at under 2,000fps. This was enough to negatively affect penetration, which is a must for a dangerous game rifle round. Some of this had to do because the stated ballistics were with a 26” barrel length, while most of the rifles used for this sort of work used 22”-24” barrel lengths for handiness.

Additionally, there were reports that the compressed charges of Olin Chemical’s early ball powder were causing erratic ignition. While these issues were corrected by the early 1970s as Olin Chemical owned Winchester’s ammunition brand and the firearm brand's manufacturing at the time, a certain negativity surrounded the round even though it was by far the most popular round in Africa due to a much-reduced cost of both rifle and ammunition compared to European offerings.

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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458Win
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Reged: 15/12/06
Posts: 302
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #305310 - 14/09/17 03:16 AM

Mike LaGrange's little book Ballistics in Perspective is another good insight into what professional elephant cullers use. Like Harland, he liked the 458 and even claims that even though it wasn't the most powerful it was still his favorite as no matter what you chose you eventually had to correctly place your bullets

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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Daryl_S
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: 458Win]
      #305311 - 14/09/17 03:34 AM

There is or was a brown bear guide in Alaska who used or maybe still uses, a .458 Win. Mag. for backup, with 400 or 350gr. TSX's, IIRC.

He may use a .375 or 9.3 nowadays, less recoil and will still do the job with good bullets and proper placement - even a 9mm will work, if necessary.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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ovny
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Reged: 19/06/08
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Loc: Spain
Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Daryl_S]
      #305335 - 14/09/17 05:43 PM

The charm of this cartridge is its power contained in a brass of standard length. The problem was that the gunpowder in those times was not as evolved as in our days. Today the 458 WM is fully valid and reproduces the ballistic of the mythical 470 NE. If we want more speed and kinetic energy, we have to go to 458 Lott and above but these no longer use short brass.

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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Remington
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: ovny]
      #305353 - 15/09/17 03:26 AM

The pity is that in life I will attend a safari in Africa, enough if I manage to go hunting in Spain. The subject of these mega cartridges is pure curiosity and personal taste. Thank you very much for taking pleasure in your experiences.

Regards,

Remington.

--------------------
Punctuality is respect for the time of others.


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Ripp
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Daryl_S]
      #305354 - 15/09/17 03:39 AM

Quote:

There is or was a brown bear guide in Alaska who used or maybe still uses, a .458 Win. Mag. for backup, with 400 or 350gr. TSX's, IIRC.

He may use a .375 or 9.3 nowadays, less recoil and will still do the job with good bullets and proper placement - even a 9mm will work, if necessary.




Read somewhere that some were going to the .416 Rem or .416 Ruger as well..not sure how accurate that is..but rumor on the grape vine..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ash
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #305360 - 15/09/17 08:23 AM

.416 Ruger with the plastic stock and all stainless steel is on my wish list.

Had a .458 winnie. Never shot any game but loved it. Was just a zastava but it never missed a beat

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #305365 - 15/09/17 09:07 AM

Zastavas are very good. A bit of time lapping them and they become as smooth as any FN and the metal is very strong. I wish I had 30 of them on the back shelf.

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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 16381
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: szihn]
      #305366 - 15/09/17 09:11 AM

Should have bought a truckload of the Zastava walnut and plastic stocked 9.3x62's when tradeexcanada was selling them for $450.00.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ash
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Daryl_S]
      #305389 - 15/09/17 08:17 PM

They've gone from $800 to over 1000 here now too. I sold mine for $650 to a friend.

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.


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Sarg
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #305390 - 15/09/17 09:42 PM

I have used the 458Win a lot, it is awesome, shoot everything with it out to 200+ yards even with the 500gr bullet, even crows around the camp (can't go near the .22 in the cook shed as they to smart for that)
Have shot wounded Buff in the rump & had the solid come out the nose !

Don't forget on the Zastava when they were cheap in Oz the Aussie dollar was = or more than the US !

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No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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Remington
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum [Re: Sarg]
      #305413 - 16/09/17 06:00 PM

Thank you for your answers and interest, I do not think I ever buy a rifle in a large caliber cartridge, I do think that I will think of a rifle in a cartridge that complements the 338 WM type 270 Winchester, 270 WSM, 280 Remington, 257 Weatherby Magnum of which I have read that it is lightning) or the like. But for now and with the little game that I practice, the 338 covers all my expectations. And if in some hunt is pulled very close I take the shotgun of the caliber 12 and with this weapon (repeater Benelli) I believe that up to 50 meters what the bullet touch leaves it on the site.

regards

Remington.

--------------------
Punctuality is respect for the time of others.


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