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grandveneur
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404 magnum Schüler
#230765 - 02/06/13 05:01 AM

http://www.municion.org/404/404Schuler.htm

Who know this cartridge ?

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230768 - 02/06/13 05:23 AM

A page of the A.Schüler catalog . It's the cartridge at lower left . According to the recherche of Mr. Ziegenhahn in Zella-Mehlis near Suhl , is this cartridge very similar to the 416WM without a belt and with a rebated rim like the 12,7x70 . Very interesting !

www.Ziegenhahn.de

Edited by grandveneur (02/06/13 05:47 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230798 - 02/06/13 09:43 PM

grandveneur

I only know it exist, never see a rifle or collector ammo for sale. it looks like you can make brass from 416 rigby cases. have mister Ziegenhahn a chamber reamer? the new made brass with the Zi-Di headstamp seems to indicate this

the brass for this new made cartridge is probably made by horneber.

the case looks very potent like a 404 Jeffery on stereoids. do you have a serious interest for making a rifle for this forgotten magnum and dont like your 11,2x72 Schüler anymore?

--------------------
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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230803 - 03/06/13 12:06 AM

No , for hunting i like the safe side ! I prefer my 500 Schüler and certainly my 11,2x72 Schüler .

If i can find a old one in this caliber i take it , but not sure that some such rifles was built .

I suppose that Mr. Ziegenhahn has a chamber reamer and a gauge because he had built a test rifle . Initially he hed only a old cartridge found in the ruins of the Schüler factory . After the measurement he was surprised that this cartridge is very similar with the big Weatherby cartridges like the 378, 416 and 460 . P1 basis diameter is 14,76mm for the 404 Schüler and 14,78mm for the big Weatherby cartridges . The only one 0,02mm difference was not appreciable . The belt and the normal rim were not a problem .

Mr. Ziegenhahn saw no market for this cartridge . That's my opinion too , we have enough good cartridges of this caliber . But it remains a open question , why the big Weatherby cartridges have this size , from a Rigby cartridge or from a prey object of the WWII ? The US Army ( Gen.Patton ) was in Suhl !

Edited by grandveneur (03/06/13 12:29 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230806 - 03/06/13 01:53 AM

interesting story, I will send Ziegenhahn an e-mail and ask if they sold collector cartridges. there was no market for a new cartridge for decades because we have the 404 in the M 98 and nobody realy need another round but at least in the last twenty years we have see a battalion of new wildcats between .400 and .458. the post war german three groups ammo concept of some standard caliber, special caliber and obsolete caliber that will be in production only for some years was not realy bad but it did not work in the fatherland alone never mind other countrys. no wonder for me the 10,75x73 aka 404 was the biggest of the special cartridges.

for the gentleman with the taste for something special the 404 schüler magnum could have some merit's today.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (03/06/13 01:55 AM)

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Igorrock
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230807 - 03/06/13 01:54 AM

Quote:

But it remains a open question , why the big Weatherby cartridges have this size , from a Rigby cartridge or from a prey object of the WWII ? The US Army ( Gen.Patton ) was in Suhl !

Those calibers both have one factor in common; they have designed for m98 mauser, normal size or magnum, depends on which of them.

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230808 - 03/06/13 02:20 AM

for the gentleman with the taste for something special the 404 schüler magnum could have some merit's today.

It's a very interesting cartridge , no question !

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: Igorrock]
#230811 - 03/06/13 03:20 AM

Those calibers both have one factor in common; they have designed for m98 mauser, normal size or magnum, depends on which of them.

The Mauser magnum system are the best for this cartridges , but August Schüler used normal system for all his cartridges . A compromise and you need some modifications on the system ---and the cartridges , especially the deep seating of the bullets . I know the problem . My 500 Schüler ( 12,7x70 Schüler , 500 Jeffery ,... ) is a custom rifle made in the ninetieth with a magnum system and the 11,2x72 is a original Schüler from the twentieth with a M98 standart system . Was not easy to reload quickly by buffalo hunting ! The rebated rim is also a problem .

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230812 - 03/06/13 04:16 AM

grand

Why do you say the rebated rim is a problem ?

A correctly set up gun as Jeffrey and Schuler did works fine.
I have a copy of one.

Also, apart from a little longer bolt throw, why do you find the Magnum Mauser to be hard to quickly reload ? Never had a problem with it.

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230817 - 03/06/13 06:43 AM

The 500 Jeffery , with his slight rebated rim , in a magnum action is not the problem , whereby by shooting a elefant with 2 shots in the heart there after the trackers gave me 2 shells back --- and a cartridge , loosed by quickly reloading !

By the 11,2x72 i push with my thumb on the cartridges in the magazine by reloading ! The rim of this cartridge is very rebated !

Very interesting all this old cartridges ! You can see where were the problems in the golden age of the safaris !

Edited by grandveneur (03/06/13 06:52 AM)

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Igorrock
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230827 - 03/06/13 03:58 PM

The rebated rim is there only for stripper clip so I think it´s more clever do make this ammo modern to re-form it having normal size rim. Like Jack Lott used to do with .425 WR. Then good ammo canditate for BRNO 602...

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Rule303
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230847 - 04/06/13 07:47 AM

Quote:

for the gentleman with the taste for something special the 404 schüler magnum could have some merit's today.

It certainly could have some merit for a gentleman of taste. I wonder if necking up a 375RUM would give similar performance to the 404SM.

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RobertL
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230856 - 04/06/13 10:54 PM

Hello Grandveneur,

I hope I can contribute some further clarification.

Some years ago there was an article in a German magazine „caliber” about this cartridge.
Based on what Rolf Ziegenhahn, the senior chief of the Ziegenhahn Company, told the writer the story is in short.
At about spring time in 1986 the old Schueler facility building had to make way for a new planed modern estate in Suhl.
Rolf Ziegenhahn had been informed too late about the planed demolition of the building so he arrived late for finding nearly one hundred chamber reamers in the rubble. Without searching for something special he found an old catalogue sheet in which he realized a cartridge with the name .404 Magnum Schueler. In addition the rifle model in which the cartridges were offered was mentioned as Mod 34.

With further investigations Rolf found two not fired empty cases without head stamp on a wooden board in the proof house of Suhl. One was a .500 Schueler (12,5x70) while the other was an unfired .404 Magnum Schueler.

The brass for the batch of new made cases is reformed and belt turned from Weatherby cases later fitted with the Zi-Di head stamp.

Robert

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
#230863 - 05/06/13 01:54 AM

Hello RobertL !

I saw this old catalog page and the cartridge in the Hatari Times n° 11 . The topic was the cartridge 11,2x72 . I don't know if Mr. H.Wolf wrote a artikel about the cartridge 404 magnum Schüler .

In all cases it was a very modern cartridge but born prematurely in a time without very slow burning powder and very strong bullets .

Today we have enough good cartridges in this class , ---the 416WM for example !

But there is nothing to prevent me to look for a Mod.34 !

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230864 - 05/06/13 01:59 AM

Robert

That is a sad story.

Just think what could have been saved, stuff that
had probably survived the war(s).

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eagle27
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230872 - 05/06/13 08:48 AM

Quote:

In all cases it was a very modern cartridge but born prematurely in a time without very slow burning powder and very strong bullets

I don't think the powder type or bullets really had much to do with the demise of a few of these European cartridges such as the 404 Magnum Schuler. Most of the big bores, although working very well with slow burning powders, do not actually need slow burners to work efficiently. The British used cordite powder for years in most of the well known and very successful big bore cartridges and this is a relatively fast powder. As for bullets, yes there were problems in earlier days with some manufacturers bullets but again all the famous and respected performers on big game, the 375 H&H, 404J, 416 Rigby, 425 WR, 500J, 505 Gibbs and all of the British rimmed big bore cartridges for double guns, gave respectable performance on large dangerous game using the powder and bullets available at the time.

As pointed out by Taylor in his 'bible', The Europeans were always trying to play catchup to the British when developing cartridges and never quite got there, being beaten by a year or two each time. The 9.3 in the various cartridges produced for this calibre was probably the most notable exception to the rule, duplicating the 375 H&H in most respects and being well known and popular in Africa but still never ever approaching the popularity and use the 375 H&H enjoyed.

Of course with the range of powders and bullets available today any cartridge can be made to perform better to its potential including those old tried and true performers of yesteryear.

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RobertL
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230879 - 05/06/13 06:10 PM

Hallo Grandveneur

I know Harald Wolf well and he has not written the story about the .404 Magnum Schueler.
What have been shown in the Hatari Times article about the 11,2x72 Schüler is only the top of the catalogue sheet.
I am sorry to say, but I have my doubt that you will be able to find a Mod. 34. At least I can try to support you with a scan of that old catalogue sheet that Rolf Ziegenhahn found in the demolished building, just that you know what you are looking for. Let me know if you are interested.

The interesting thing about that cartridge is the modern design – even that the slow burning powders necessary where not available at the time neither the strong bullets as you said!
Furthermore the .404 Magnum Schueler has an L6 (overall cartridge length) of 86,5 mm so it will fit into a slightly modified standard length Mauser 98 action – that is what the .416 Weatherby can not offer….

As I said, just let me know if I can help further.
Robert

Edited by RobertL (05/06/13 06:14 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
#230891 - 06/06/13 04:08 AM

Sure, I am very interestet

thought about it the last days and my conclusion was that this cartridge must fit in a military mauser action. this is essential for a Schüler cartridge but thank you for your clarification about the cartridge oal. I would use a common M 98 action and build a single row magazine for it. knowing that many gentleman dont like it when the magazin is not flush with the stock but I can live with this.
the feeding problems with rebated rim catridge's occur only in double row magazine's. you never hear this about the .50 Beowulf in the M 16 for example only to talk about the latest succesful rebated rim cartridge. I have study this problem in my 11,2x60 Schüler Mauser rifle and the problem with the rebated rim design is in a single moment in the feeding prozess. the cartridge in a single row magazine move in two directions: up and forward
in a double row magazin the cartridge moving up , left or right and forward.

there is a moment when the case head can slip under the bolt head when the feeding is not made 100% perfect by the gunmaker but only in double row magazine's.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (06/06/13 04:09 AM)

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Igorrock
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230894 - 06/06/13 05:28 AM

lancaster; one alternative is to do a double row magazine which feeds in the middle, like for example LAHTI-SALORANTA -machine guns magazine does.

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RobertL
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230915 - 06/06/13 11:54 PM

Lancaster,

PM send.

The gun which was build by Rolf Ziegenhahn as a test sample had exactly what you descript:
- single row magazine and
- the magazin is not flush with the stock.

Robert

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
#230916 - 07/06/13 01:01 AM

I couldn't see this cartridge in COTW.

It is a slightly older copy.

Or did I miss something ?

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230919 - 07/06/13 01:49 AM

its not in COTW but also other handbooks dont know this round. I believe seeing it the first time in Hatari Times years ago.
Robert, you get an answer

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RobertL
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230948 - 07/06/13 07:27 PM

Lars,

thank you for the help.

Attached the two calatogue sheets found by Rolf Ziegenhahn

The .404 Magnum Schueler between a .404 Jeffery and a .416 Weatherby case.

Robert

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
#230953 - 07/06/13 09:12 PM

Robert, we have to thank you for the pics

the interesting point about the 404 Magnum is that you get it in an military action without cuting of a little bit here and there like you do it for chamber the 404 Jeffery. if Ziegenhahn realy have a chamber reamer the Modell 34 can be dublicated for less than 2000 euro I would say.

I notice that Schüler did not offer the 11,2x60 anymore in this times.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/06/13 09:14 PM)

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230974 - 08/06/13 03:27 AM

Mr. Ziegenhahn is know as maker of very high quality rifles ! The rifle for the 404 Schüler is not conform of his high standart . This rifle was only a TEST RIFLE . Forget a rifle for 2000 Euros !

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230976 - 08/06/13 04:46 AM

It's great that we have a photo of the actual cartridge.

Thanks for posting.

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230977 - 08/06/13 05:28 AM

Quote:

Mr. Ziegenhahn is know as maker of very high quality rifles ! The rifle for the 404 Schüler is not conform of his high standart . This rifle was only a TEST RIFLE . Forget a rifle for 2000 Euros !

I talking about a replika M 34b and yes I think its possible for less than 2000
maybe not by Mister ziegenhahn himself

--------------------
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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230978 - 08/06/13 06:11 AM

In that case may be possible ! But imho the 404 Schüler is a cartridge for a Mauser magnum action , like the 500 Schüler/Jeffery . Otherwise it's a compromise and a source of problems in the fields .

I am interested . Have to see what can be done !

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230979 - 08/06/13 06:27 AM

grand

Was the 500 Jeffrey only made on the Magnum action ?

I thought they were made on the standard action ?

The 505 Gibbs was definately made on the Magnum action.

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230980 - 08/06/13 06:38 AM

In a first time on M98 action with claws on the side for holding on the cartridges , ---complex ! The magnum action was a better choice . I have one , i confirm .

In the catalog from Jeffery 1930 you can read :

" The actions of these rifles are specially made for our various High-Power Cartridges by the firm of Mauser , and are not the mutilated military actions sold by dealers and stores . "

Edited by grandveneur (08/06/13 06:47 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230981 - 08/06/13 06:42 AM

I have one on a standard action, it was a copy
of the original one's as we had a couple out here.

I also have an Original 505 Gibbs on a Magnum
Mauser action so I have been able to do a direct
comparison.

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230982 - 08/06/13 06:58 AM

Jeffery used only Magnum actions for his .500 rifles . There was a reason !

A success in selling for Jeffery ! In relative terms , the number of rifles 500 Jeffery sold before WWII is small .

Edited by grandveneur (08/06/13 04:24 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230991 - 08/06/13 08:02 PM

Quote:

I couldn't see this cartridge in COTW.

It is a slightly older copy.

Or did I miss something ?

500Nitro, COTW is notorious incomplete and inaccurate when it comes to older German and Austrian cartridges!Take f.i. the bs about the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer as having an insufficient shoulder for headspacing. In fact, this case has a more pronounced shoulder than either the 9.3x62 or the .35 Whelen. Or,the 9.3x48, x57, x70, x72, x80 and x82R all lumped together.It ignores the fact that these cases came on 4 slightly different base-rim dimensions and in at least 5 different body taper shapes that often cause confusion. Nearly none of the countless blackpowder cases based on the M71 Mauser base are even mentioned.

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: kuduae]
#230994 - 08/06/13 11:46 PM

The problem of all this books is that anybody know somethings about cartridges and write a book , with all his prejudices towards peoples and countries ! Taylor not excluded with his animosity against germans .

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230997 - 09/06/13 03:30 AM

I am sure CotW was an excellent book when it came out in 1965 but now its in print for decades, every new edition get a new colourful cover and you can read "Revised And Expanded" ...
nothing is revised and expended! not the three editions I had in my hands including my own. allways the same stuff because it sell as it is. thats the problem with CotW its the peak of the 1960/1970s but we have now the year of the Lord 2013.

I see it as historical like Nonte's "Home Guide to Cartridge Conversion's"

--------------------
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500Nitro
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230999 - 09/06/13 04:56 AM

I tend to agree that it hasn't been updated as much as it should have in the last few years.

It still is a good single source reference book.

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kuduae
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#231002 - 09/06/13 06:54 AM

IMHO COTW was updated and expanded, but mostly the sections about American factory, proprietary, wildcat and handgun cartridges. But both the European and British sporting rifle sections can stand some add-ins of historically important cartridges. F.I. the Gibbs .461 No.1 and No.2, one of them used by Selous, .360 No.3 and No.4 are not even mentioned. The so called "Kangaroo" cartridges, once developed in England for the Australian market, like .442 Long, .450 No.1 tapered (Not to be confused with the .500-.450 No.1 Carbine) or the .425 Webley are missing too.

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: kuduae]
#348387 - 23/12/20 10:59 PM

Seven years later , no news.

The cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler is more mysterious than before.

A few people in South Africa seems like me to be interested in their resuscitation , as long as it practically existed , realization maybe better , but it can be get expensive. There is no need for such a cartridge , to that extent commercially uninteresting. It is comparable to the cartridge 416 WBY-Magnum which is not exactly a sales success.

Edited by grandveneur (23/12/20 11:01 PM)

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379884 - 07/10/23 05:44 AM

Nothing new.

This cartridge could have been reactivated, or rather manufactured, because no one really knows whether rifles were ever built for it or not, but it would have cost a lot. Some people in South Africa were interested, but from the point of view marketing, there is no need as the cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler is almost similar to the cartridge 416 Weatherby Magnum.

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Rule303
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379886 - 07/10/23 08:45 AM

The rebated rim might have put a lot of people off the cartridge.

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DarylS
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: Rule303]
#379887 - 07/10/23 09:14 AM

The magazine must allow enough of the ctg. to rise above normal, that the bolt face picks up the rim, not the case head in front of it.

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Daryl

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: Rule303]
#379888 - 07/10/23 04:42 PM

If the cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler is meant, I don't think that was the cause. At that time there were some cartridges with rebated rims in use. The cartridge 12,7x70 Schüler was also not a success at the time.

The matter takes place between the two world wars, so a lot is unclear. Nobody knows whether this cartridge was ever manufactured, let alone whether a weapon was built for it. The cartridge appears mainly on the well-known old catalog page.

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379919 - 09/10/23 04:57 AM

I would like to see a 404 Schüler magnum build but honestly I have to much rifles and don't have the time to load for them or shooting them all.

btw, this is not meaning I have to much gun!

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grandveneur
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#379920 - 09/10/23 05:02 AM

Having one built is such a thing, the cartridge has to be invented again. Mr. Ziegenhahn tried it, but no one knows whether it was the right concept from August Schüler or not.

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DarylS
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: lancaster]
#379923 - 09/10/23 11:32 AM

Post deleted by DarylS

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: DarylS]
#379927 - 09/10/23 07:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would like to see a 404 Schüler magnum build but honestly I have to much rifles and don't have the time to load for them or shooting them all.

btw, this is not meaning I have to much gun!

I resemble that post. I've 43 sets of dies & 82 sets of mould blocks. In the last 6 months, I only used one mould and that was to cast up some more 14 bore balls for my Sporting Rifle, for the October Postal match at ALR.

Are you on the right topic ?

The cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler would use the same bullets as the cartridge 404 Jeffery.

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8729
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379933 - 10/10/23 05:48 AM

do I heard you have to much guns daryl?

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#379935 - 10/10/23 06:31 AM

No, never, lancaster.
Zat better OP?

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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