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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230976 - 08/06/13 04:46 AM

It's great that we have a photo of the actual cartridge.

Thanks for posting.

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8729
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230977 - 08/06/13 05:28 AM

Quote:

Mr. Ziegenhahn is know as maker of very high quality rifles ! The rifle for the 404 Schüler is not conform of his high standart . This rifle was only a TEST RIFLE . Forget a rifle for 2000 Euros !

I talking about a replika M 34b and yes I think its possible for less than 2000
maybe not by Mister ziegenhahn himself

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230978 - 08/06/13 06:11 AM

In that case may be possible ! But imho the 404 Schüler is a cartridge for a Mauser magnum action , like the 500 Schüler/Jeffery . Otherwise it's a compromise and a source of problems in the fields .

I am interested . Have to see what can be done !

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230979 - 08/06/13 06:27 AM

grand

Was the 500 Jeffrey only made on the Magnum action ?

I thought they were made on the standard action ?

The 505 Gibbs was definately made on the Magnum action.

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230980 - 08/06/13 06:38 AM

In a first time on M98 action with claws on the side for holding on the cartridges , ---complex ! The magnum action was a better choice . I have one , i confirm .

In the catalog from Jeffery 1930 you can read :

" The actions of these rifles are specially made for our various High-Power Cartridges by the firm of Mauser , and are not the mutilated military actions sold by dealers and stores . "

Edited by grandveneur (08/06/13 06:47 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230981 - 08/06/13 06:42 AM

I have one on a standard action, it was a copy
of the original one's as we had a couple out here.

I also have an Original 505 Gibbs on a Magnum
Mauser action so I have been able to do a direct
comparison.

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230982 - 08/06/13 06:58 AM

Jeffery used only Magnum actions for his .500 rifles . There was a reason !

A success in selling for Jeffery ! In relative terms , the number of rifles 500 Jeffery sold before WWII is small .

Edited by grandveneur (08/06/13 04:24 PM)

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#230991 - 08/06/13 08:02 PM

Quote:

I couldn't see this cartridge in COTW.

It is a slightly older copy.

Or did I miss something ?

500Nitro, COTW is notorious incomplete and inaccurate when it comes to older German and Austrian cartridges!Take f.i. the bs about the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer as having an insufficient shoulder for headspacing. In fact, this case has a more pronounced shoulder than either the 9.3x62 or the .35 Whelen. Or,the 9.3x48, x57, x70, x72, x80 and x82R all lumped together.It ignores the fact that these cases came on 4 slightly different base-rim dimensions and in at least 5 different body taper shapes that often cause confusion. Nearly none of the countless blackpowder cases based on the M71 Mauser base are even mentioned.

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: kuduae]
#230994 - 08/06/13 11:46 PM

The problem of all this books is that anybody know somethings about cartridges and write a book , with all his prejudices towards peoples and countries ! Taylor not excluded with his animosity against germans .

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8729
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#230997 - 09/06/13 03:30 AM

I am sure CotW was an excellent book when it came out in 1965 but now its in print for decades, every new edition get a new colourful cover and you can read "Revised And Expanded" ...
nothing is revised and expended! not the three editions I had in my hands including my own. allways the same stuff because it sell as it is. thats the problem with CotW its the peak of the 1960/1970s but we have now the year of the Lord 2013.

I see it as historical like Nonte's "Home Guide to Cartridge Conversion's"

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#230999 - 09/06/13 04:56 AM

I tend to agree that it hasn't been updated as much as it should have in the last few years.

It still is a good single source reference book.

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
#231002 - 09/06/13 06:54 AM

IMHO COTW was updated and expanded, but mostly the sections about American factory, proprietary, wildcat and handgun cartridges. But both the European and British sporting rifle sections can stand some add-ins of historically important cartridges. F.I. the Gibbs .461 No.1 and No.2, one of them used by Selous, .360 No.3 and No.4 are not even mentioned. The so called "Kangaroo" cartridges, once developed in England for the Australian market, like .442 Long, .450 No.1 tapered (Not to be confused with the .500-.450 No.1 Carbine) or the .425 Webley are missing too.

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: kuduae]
#348387 - 23/12/20 10:59 PM

Seven years later , no news.

The cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler is more mysterious than before.

A few people in South Africa seems like me to be interested in their resuscitation , as long as it practically existed , realization maybe better , but it can be get expensive. There is no need for such a cartridge , to that extent commercially uninteresting. It is comparable to the cartridge 416 WBY-Magnum which is not exactly a sales success.

Edited by grandveneur (23/12/20 11:01 PM)

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379884 - 07/10/23 05:44 AM

Nothing new.

This cartridge could have been reactivated, or rather manufactured, because no one really knows whether rifles were ever built for it or not, but it would have cost a lot. Some people in South Africa were interested, but from the point of view marketing, there is no need as the cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler is almost similar to the cartridge 416 Weatherby Magnum.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4915
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379886 - 07/10/23 08:45 AM

The rebated rim might have put a lot of people off the cartridge.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26511
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: Rule303]
#379887 - 07/10/23 09:14 AM

The magazine must allow enough of the ctg. to rise above normal, that the bolt face picks up the rim, not the case head in front of it.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: Rule303]
#379888 - 07/10/23 04:42 PM

If the cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler is meant, I don't think that was the cause. At that time there were some cartridges with rebated rims in use. The cartridge 12,7x70 Schüler was also not a success at the time.

The matter takes place between the two world wars, so a lot is unclear. Nobody knows whether this cartridge was ever manufactured, let alone whether a weapon was built for it. The cartridge appears mainly on the well-known old catalog page.

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lancaster
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379919 - 09/10/23 04:57 AM

I would like to see a 404 Schüler magnum build but honestly I have to much rifles and don't have the time to load for them or shooting them all.

btw, this is not meaning I have to much gun!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#379920 - 09/10/23 05:02 AM

Having one built is such a thing, the cartridge has to be invented again. Mr. Ziegenhahn tried it, but no one knows whether it was the right concept from August Schüler or not.

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DarylS
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Posts: 26511
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 404 magnum Schüler *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: lancaster]
#379923 - 09/10/23 11:32 AM

Post deleted by DarylS

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: DarylS]
#379927 - 09/10/23 07:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would like to see a 404 Schüler magnum build but honestly I have to much rifles and don't have the time to load for them or shooting them all.

btw, this is not meaning I have to much gun!

I resemble that post. I've 43 sets of dies & 82 sets of mould blocks. In the last 6 months, I only used one mould and that was to cast up some more 14 bore balls for my Sporting Rifle, for the October Postal match at ALR.

Are you on the right topic ?

The cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler would use the same bullets as the cartridge 404 Jeffery.

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8729
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Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
#379933 - 10/10/23 05:48 AM

do I heard you have to much guns daryl?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26511
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
#379935 - 10/10/23 06:31 AM

No, never, lancaster.
Zat better OP?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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