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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Ash
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45 ACP Lever Gun?
#225199 - 13/02/13 08:07 AM

Hey guys!

I've seen a that a few of these have been custom made, and even a few for policing duties for Argentina by Winchester back in the day.
My question - in the tube magazine, is recoil going to be sufficient with factory ammo to set off the round in front? Referring to standard 230gr ball. Or would this gun require hollow points or critical defence/zombie max flexi tip points?

Or would firing (from a distance!) a magazine filled with ball ammo be a suitable test whether its safe or not?

Cheers.
Ash

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Ash]
#225201 - 13/02/13 08:40 AM

Much would depend on the 'sensitivity' of the primer in front. How much is the spring compressed, ie; pre-load on the primer - how heavy is the mag-tube spring? How much was the pellet crushed during seating? - How sensitive was it to start with? and How easily crushed (strong) is the primer cup in that brand or LOT of primers.

I'd use nothing but flat nosed bullets, myself.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ash
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#225206 - 13/02/13 11:10 AM

Thanks, did not think of springs etc having an influence.
This may sound silly, but how would the hollow/flat noses do for pig/deer at rather close range? I mean, factory ammo - what would be suitable? Talking 50m or less. This is also just one of those short lived interests that probably won't happen, with all honesty. And I know the .45 colt would be better and can be had factory standard.

Cheers,
Ash

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albertan
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Ash]
#225208 - 13/02/13 01:58 PM

I thought the .45 Colts would have been enough, but I guess I was wrong again.

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: albertan]
#225223 - 13/02/13 05:10 PM

I agree albertan, the .45 Colt with up to 300gr. and .44 Mag. with up to 270gr., both in lever guns are preferable to me.

I've shot 2 black bears with a .45ACP - while working. The first was a head shot with a 230gr. FMJ handload at around factory speed - 840fps perhaps 20yards. The second was a rib shot at 35 yards with a 260gr. Speer HP, loaded with Speer's maximum load of W630 powder. The 5" Wilson barrel chronographed 960fps with that load and it killed the bear in seconds, stopping on the hide on the off side.
So- can you use a .45ACP to kill bear or deer - certainly. Would I do it again given the chance, probably not. I preferred my .44 Mag.marlin and .45 Colt M94 lever guns, both of which worked beautifully on bear and the .45 actually took two Elk for me with 300gr. HP cast, a sized down .45/90 bullet.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ash
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#225226 - 13/02/13 07:04 PM

It's more just.. To have something out of the ordinary, yet is still semi functional.
Am aware it's worse ballistically to the above cartridges. More for a "pack gun".
And the .45 ACP is such a sweet little cartridge.
Would also love a Marlin 94 in .50 AE, but local smith doesn't know anyone in this country capable. I've emailed a couple of the US guys who have done it, but I have not experience in 'smithing so is helpful if I ever decide to try and go this route. + brass is fairly cheap.

Cheers Lads!
Ash

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aam
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Ash]
#225228 - 13/02/13 07:29 PM

Back in the day, I had a Marlin Camp Carbine in 45 ACP. The longest shot was 68 paces on a pig. It took two shots in rapid succession

I was using Hornady 200 grn XTP pills.

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: aam]
#225241 - 14/02/13 03:40 AM

Seems to me I read that the M94 is too narrow for the .50 AE.
A Marlin might work.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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albertan
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#225262 - 14/02/13 11:47 AM

The 45\70 and the .45 Colt both are rimmed designs. Head spacing occurs on the rim. This allows for a good solid crimp that allows for a secure hold and proper ignition. With the taper crimped .45 ACP, head spacing off the case mouth might not cut it for day in, day out service.

Daryl is right when he suggests that the bullet variety available for the bigger rounds makes them more useful.

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Rule303
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: albertan]
#225279 - 14/02/13 08:45 PM

I would walk past a long gun in 45ACP just as I would one in 9X19. But one in 45Long Colt I would take tomorrow. Just my thoughts only but 45ACP is an anti personel round were as the 45LC is that and more. Loaded up in modern firearms they will out perform the 44mag.

Any flat nosed bullet should work fine- read better than pointed bullets- on animals.

Jim Kent at Buffalo Gunsmiths in Toowoomba would be one I would contact for work on lever actions.

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Rule303]
#225290 - 15/02/13 04:36 AM

If wanting the larger rounds for a lever gun, look to the M92, I'd think. It might work with the .50 - not sure. Pedersoli or Uberti makes one I think, in .45 Colt or .454 Casull. Homer has one in .45 Colt.

Too bad we can no longer obtain WW680 - it was incredible in my .45 Colt M94 Trapper, however WW296 is what I used on the two elk - I obtained 1,584fps with a 300gr. HP from a 16"bl. There are flies on those 1880's .45/90 Winchester factory ballistics. That was with Ross Seyfried's .44 mag pressure loads for the .45 Colt, measured and written up many years ago in Handloader magazine.

The more I think on it, a .45 ACP in a Marlin or M94 would be a fun gun for carry, slimmed down, stubby barrel, maybe 14" to 16", but a serious right for deer and bear, not for me. A .44/40 would have greater killing potential and it's certainly not a "stopper", in spite of Hollywood.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ash
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#225372 - 16/02/13 11:23 AM

Quote:

The more I think on it, a .45 ACP in a Marlin or M94 would be a fun gun for carry, slimmed down, stubby barrel, maybe 14" to 16", but a serious right for deer and bear, not for me. A .44/40 would have greater killing potential and it's certainly not a "stopper", in spite of Hollywood.

Would be a cutey, thats for sure.
Not as a serious gun, but one that, if needed, could do the job. I was reading about one that was mind and it said it sounded like a .22lr firing standard velocity. Also said that on the 200 yard gongs the report of the shot was near gone before the bullets impact, hah!
Another interesting possibility, that ive seen done on forums over there in the US, is a .440 Corbon on the 94 action. Thats a 50 AE down to .44 Magnum bullets. What a potential powerhouse.

Here is a .50 AE Marlin 94. Honestly if i lived there.. Would probably order one for the sake of it.

http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/forkinmarlin-1894-50-ae

I'll see if i can find the article on the .45 ACP "Trapper".

Was in the American Rifleman (?) magazine, 1983.. Not sure on month though.

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Homer
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Ash]
#225395 - 16/02/13 05:04 PM

G'Day Fella's,

I can't actually see the point in a .45 ACP lever rifle!
Maybe a semi-auto in .45 ACP but if I wanted a .45 caliber pistol cartridge in a lever rifle, I'd stick to the Win 92 that I have, in .45 Colt!!!

This option gives you the best of both worlds.
Plinking loads when you want to have some fun, and quite powerful loads, when you Feel the Need to Deck Something!!!
Exactly the same thing with that .50 AE lever rifle!
Mmmmmmm Donuts!!!

Just my 2 bobs worth.

Doh!
Homer

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Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Ash
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Ash]
#225404 - 16/02/13 11:43 PM

How about a .500 S&W Pumper?
Just not a fan of the end cap thing for the barrel/magazine tube, and that the mag tube/barrel are fairly far apart.
I'm not sure of these (.45 ACP, .50 AE, .500 S&W Pump) guns could ever be taken for a serious hunting rifle. But for something pretty darned different, its certainly up there in caliber choices. Like.. Imagine a 5-6lb .45 ACP lever, 16" barrel, holds 11+1, for a rabbit gun. .50 AE, same barrel length, 16" barrel, 6 + 1 capacity, one fun anything in Aus/most of US gun. .500 S&W Pump, think it said it holds 5+1 good for pretty much anything on most continents, the big grey fellas in Africa exempt of course. Just fun little thoughts.

Heres the "Predator Tactical" .500 S&W Pump, i also see theres a companay manufacuturing a lever gun in .500.

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Ash]
#225413 - 17/02/13 04:05 AM

The pump, 'aka' Colt Lightening, would be fun - the modern form as pictured above. Got an 'open for business' look to it.

The .500 would indeed work well, better than any of the other pistol rounds - or in the same park as a .475 Ruger in a lever gun.

The pump, of course would be faster for repeat hits.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ash
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#225441 - 17/02/13 04:28 PM

I saw a large from Colt Lightening for the first time last weekend. And original Winchester 76's. They are NOT little guns, thats for sure!
The pump .500 S&W Seems to be the same size as the large frame Lightnings.
They're around $2000, the PT 500's, but the website doesnt list them. Maybe when i get some spare cash i'll look at getting on brought in to this country. But thats a long way away! Was going to do a .585 Hubel, but bought a motorcycle instead.. Into a new hobby, it seems!
Need to sell some rifles to pay it off quicker, then i can get back into rifles (come a full circle, ay?)

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Ash]
#225879 - 24/02/13 10:22 AM

How about a 45ACP Bolt gun? This started as a 1916 SMLE No1 Mk3.

Not me but my rifle in action with the gunsmith who made it (Richard at specialinterestarms.com in NV).

Bob

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
#225917 - 25/02/13 04:13 AM

Quote:

How about a 45ACP Bolt gun? This started as a 1916 SMLE No1 Mk3.
Bob

.45 ACP bolt-gun suppressed. Cool! That would be fun - and takes .45 Auto mags as well. Years ago (80's), I had some 11 round mags when I played at IPSC - they'd be super - but I don't remember their make.
With the angle of the magazine putting the bullets right at the chamber's mouth, I suspect bolt throw was shortened to an inch and a bit, as well. Capable of being a VERY fast firing bolt gun with no recoil to speak of.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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twobobbwana
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#227201 - 18/03/13 03:03 PM

Ash,

I do understand the idea of wanting a different toy........doesn't have to make alot of sense...you just want one.

I built myself a 92 Winchester in .45 Long Colt out of a .38/40. Pretty simple conversion. New barrell and some modification to the front of the feed rails. It now wears a pistol grip stock as I like it better than the straight grip stock.

I've shot it on pigs (translates to "feral hogs") with Hornady XTPs and they don't complain. Haven't really tried to ring the most out of it as far as heavy loads are concerned as it does the job already.

With a .45 Auto on a large calibre Winchester 92 I'd say the loading gate, magazine, cartridge stop and bolt would work but you may need to do the "thingy" on the cartridge lifter that determines how far the cartridge goes onto the carrier (possibly build it up so the cartridge doesn't go too far into the gun....so there's not excessive "run up" to the chamber), cartridge feed guides and extractor (??).

Being rimless I don't know if the "rim guide area" on the cartridge guides would have to be filled/filled and altered for position (closer towards front to allow for shorter cartridge length). You'd cut your chamber with a "headspaces on case mouth" type reamer and load cartridges for it just the way you'd load them for your semi auto handgun.

That's my "off the cuff" observations.....I don't have an action and cartridge in front of me to add more accuracy to my ponderings. If your reloading manual gives the dimensions for .45 Auto and whatever your donor actions original cartridge is/was, and you understand the machinations of your action, you should be able to extablish if it's doable.

Just remember "free advice is usually worth everything you gave for it".

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buckbrush
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: twobobbwana]
#227231 - 19/03/13 05:27 PM

Gunwriter C.E. Harris has written of his Marlin 94 in .45 acp on the Cast Bullet Association website. It was made from a 94 in 45 Colt.

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9.3x57
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: buckbrush]
#227237 - 19/03/13 11:42 PM

A Ruger 96 seems an easy option if the .45 ACP feeds thru the rotary mag.

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chuck375
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: 9.3x57]
#227453 - 24/03/13 11:00 AM

I'd just go with Thompson ...

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Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: buckbrush]
#227457 - 24/03/13 11:58 AM

Quote:

Gunwriter C.E. Harris has written of his Marlin 94 in .45 acp on the Cast Bullet Association website. It was made from a 94 in 45 Colt.

I remember Ed's articles on the .45ACP 'camp gun'.

Since there is room for a .45 Colt in a '94 Winchester, there is room for the .45 Auto RIM as well. That would solve a special rimless extractor situation, although the .35 Rem only .010" per side smaller than the .45 Auto & it could work.

The .45 Auto Rim would headspace on the rim, easier than the case mouth as per the .45 Auto.

Betcha there aren't many .45 Auto Rims on Model 94 Winchesters around, nor in M1894 Marlins for that matter. Same or similar and slightly higher loadings, I'd guess.

Should easily see 1,200fps, maybe 1,300 or more with 200gr. Speer flying ashtrays.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#227458 - 24/03/13 11:59 AM

I've got an couple extra #3 action's and an extra #4 as well - hmmmmmmm.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: 45 ACP Lever Gun? [Re: DarylS]
#227459 - 24/03/13 12:15 PM

Omnivorous;

Looks like a deLisle carbine.

Another .45 "carbine" was the stubby-tubed US ordnance Helmet Testing Carbine, used to test Hadfield helmet plate. It was a chopped 1903 Springfield, sort of similar in concept to the deLisle conversions.

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