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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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aam
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404 Jeffery, is this worth buying
      #221798 - 17/12/12 07:13 PM

Saw this on usedguns.com
Is this rifle worth the money?

Would the action be a original Mauser or a Yugo copy?

Any help would be great.


I love shooting the 375 H&H, now I want to go abit bigger.
http://usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=3471


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tophet1
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: aam]
      #221799 - 17/12/12 08:09 PM

IMO absolutely NO,

Churchill used to be a brand of ex-mil Mauser 98's sporterized and then sold off (Like Parker Hale Rifles) as CRF rifles.

I'd be lucky to offer over A$1K for that 2nd hand rifle. If the bore was immaculate and the stock unmarked maybe I'd go A$1,300. That is just me however.

Having London stamped on the barrel means squat.


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gryphon
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: tophet1]
      #221824 - 18/12/12 05:56 AM

I asked the q`s on an UK forum and the first answer is as below.

"Only way to find out for sure is to see what it would make in an auction, but a Churchill gun in excellent condition must be worth at least £2500+ " GBP`s

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: gryphon]
      #221830 - 18/12/12 06:32 AM


No, not unless you really wanted a 404 quickly.

Churchill is a no name in regards to English guns.

If it was Parker Hale - which might have some history
and were known to be used in Africa, maybe but still
probably not at that price.

2500 pounds is 3800 dollars anyway.


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375Brno
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: 500Nitro]
      #221836 - 18/12/12 08:37 AM

It was originally listed at nearly $1000 more than it is on there for now. I did my homework and passed at that price. I have decided to get a 602 re-barreled with the other required feeding mods etc. I would love a 404 with the right name or proper history however probably outside my price range. My way I basically get a new gun on a more than capable action.
Just my thoughts.
Rick


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tophet1
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: 375Brno]
      #221838 - 18/12/12 08:47 AM

Quote:

It was originally listed at nearly $1000 more than it is on there for now. I did my homework and passed at that price. I have decided to get a 602 re-barreled with the other required feeding mods etc. I would love a 404 with the right name or proper history however probably outside my price range. My way I basically get a new gun on a more than capable action.
Just my thoughts.
Rick




Bingo, same here. The action and magazine well (if modified at the factory correctly) are all that rifle has of value. You would have to be prepared to replace everything else.


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gryphon
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: tophet1]
      #221843 - 18/12/12 09:51 AM

Nigel another one of your mob suggests Churchill made their own shotguns but Interarms made the Churchill rifles for them.

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gryphon
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: gryphon]
      #221844 - 18/12/12 09:55 AM



This is his reply,the ref to a 30-06 is for 1250 QUID.



This is no more "Churchill" than the comedy dog that advertises insurance IF it dates from the 1970s as, by that time, Churchill was being used by Interarms aka Sam Cummings who also had earlier Cogswell and Harrison in the late 1950s.

Sorry to disappoint but it is, no more nor less, than a bog standard Mauser action with the name "Churchill" on the barrel. That it appears to have stock American Williams front and rear sights gives the lie to it.

What is it worth?

It is worth what any other good, Mauser based, 404 in the same condition by say, Parker-Hale would be worth. It would be a fool that would seek to give it any sort of premium for the letters that happen to say "Churchill" on the barrel.

A Holland and Holland, a Rigby or a Westley Richards IT IS NOT!

The firm E J Churchill made excellent shot guns such as even in the 1970s the Regal and others. They were not and never were, to my recollection, makers of bespoke stalking rifles in their own right. It is a "badge engineered" product on behalf of Interarms just as the later Interarms Whitworth Rifle Company rifles were.

No it is not worth that sort of money nor is the 30-06 on Guntrader not for the supposed name!

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500Nitro
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: gryphon]
      #221845 - 18/12/12 09:58 AM

Quote:

Nigel another one of your mob suggests Churchill made their own shotguns but Interarms made the Churchill rifles for them.




Depends what year. Now I have read the above post, I agree.
Same as Westley and every other gun maker in the UK.

If someone walked in and ordered XYZ that came from ABC,
they would order it - and often put their name on it, Purdey included !!!

Re Churchill, highly likely considering their speciality - shotguns.

WR had most of their guns made by someone else at one point in time.


One more ting - Certain Parker Hale guns are much more desirable because they were well used in Africa and not many made, even though PH is not "up there" as an English gun maker.



Edited by 500Nitro (18/12/12 10:01 AM)


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aam
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: 500Nitro]
      #221853 - 18/12/12 12:23 PM

WOW,

I didn't expect such a response. I came very close to forking out the cash for this rifle. I'm a novice at this and I'm gald I came here to get the good oil.

To everyone who posted, just want to say thank you for your time and effort in finding the info for me.


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375Brno
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: 500Nitro]
      #221854 - 18/12/12 12:23 PM

aam
Here is my original post on this gun.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=208789&an=0&page=1#Post208789

We talked a few times and both agreed it was not "the" Interarms gun he thought it was. That does not mean it was not made by Interarms as others have speculated on this thread.

Rick


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kamilaroi
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: 375Brno]
      #221858 - 18/12/12 01:32 PM

FWIW, NO. $500 tops!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: 500Nitro]
      #221865 - 18/12/12 02:21 PM

Quote:


Churchill is a no name in regards to English guns.





Is this the same as the E.J. Churchill or the "Churchill" brand, which I thought is a well established brand, making all sorts of quality shotguns, rifles, and double rifles?

I remember a PH friend having a sidelock double rifle in .500 NE made in "his name" (ie a promotion) and a price tage of $250,000?

From their website:





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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (18/12/12 02:22 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: aam]
      #221867 - 18/12/12 02:30 PM

Quote:

Saw this on usedguns.com
Is this rifle worth the money?

Would the action be a original Mauser or a Yugo copy?

Any help would be great.


I love shooting the 375 H&H, now I want to go abit bigger.
http://usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=3471




Personally I don't understand some of the "valuations" of this rifle on this thread??? Rarely does one see a < $1,000 Mauser 98 available in any big bore calibre today, let alone a .404. $500 hardly buys a decent ex-mil action alone???

The new CZ's, from memory I thought went for around $4500 (correct me if I am wrong).

Buying a CZ in a suitable form, then modifying it will cost a similar amount to this rifle???

However from the pathetic photo and information available on usedguns, it is hard to see what is being bought. I would want to look it over in person. I also do not like the monte carlo stock. One would want to know what the action is as well, ie WW2 mil action or modern MkX action.

At the current price I believe it is still over priced. I would be considering it for around the $1000 to $1700 mark, depending on various factors. Still has the monte carlo stock however.



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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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gryphon
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: NitroX]
      #221876 - 18/12/12 04:39 PM

I bought this similar action/rifle last week for a really lot less than the Churchill.


http://usedguns.com.au/pics/S%2002223.jpg


Calibre/Item: 300 Win Mag
Make: Parker Hale
Model: 1200 Custom
Action: Bolt action
Scope: Simmons 1-5 power scope
Serial No: S 02223
Condition: Good
Advertised: 10/12/2012
Licence number:
Phone:
Comment: Ultra lightweight sambar rifle, excellent bore, Leupold rings, Geoff Slee stock, three round capacity.

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DarylS
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: gryphon]
      #221898 - 19/12/12 04:01 AM

I don't know, Nitro - maybe where you hail from they are worth more - you can buy M98's rifles with stocks and sights and sometimes already drilled and tapped in 9.3x62, 9.3x57 and 9x57 for under $400.00 here. Perhaps one should be 'stocking up'.

--------------------
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"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: DarylS]
      #221946 - 19/12/12 02:02 PM

Quote:

I don't know, Nitro - maybe where you hail from they are worth more - you can buy M98's rifles with stocks and sights and sometimes already drilled and tapped in 9.3x62, 9.3x57 and 9x57 for under $400.00 here. Perhaps one should be 'stocking up'.




More so "cost more" than "worth more". For $400 over here (I'm on the same island as Nitro) you can get an unmodified ex-mil Mauser in "fair" condition (meaning parts will be well worn, or missing, and may be in need of replacement).


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: DarylS]
      #222050 - 20/12/12 08:05 PM

Quote:

I don't know, Nitro - maybe where you hail from they are worth more - you can buy M98's rifles with stocks and sights and sometimes already drilled and tapped in 9.3x62, 9.3x57 and 9x57 for under $400.00 here. Perhaps one should be 'stocking up'.




Well yes, it is a completely different market. Prices in the USA are often a lot cheaper than Aust. Probably similar in Canada to the USA?

BTW I have been very jealous of the prices Lancaster's finds on the net have been selling for in Germania. Getting a single rifle over here though, really adds to the price.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (20/12/12 09:06 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #222051 - 20/12/12 08:10 PM

Quote:

More so "cost more" than "worth more". For $400 over here (I'm on the same island as Nitro) you can get an unmodified ex-mil Mauser in "fair" condition (meaning parts will be well worn, or missing, and may be in need of replacement).




Quote:

Personally I don't understand some of the "valuations" of this rifle on this thread??? Rarely does one see a < $1,000 Mauser 98 available in any big bore calibre today, let alone a .404. $500 hardly buys a decent ex-mil action alone???




Yep and as I mentioned a "decent ex-mil action", which would exclude well worn parts or parts missing. IMO. So your price comment compares to mine.

I have still one ex-mil M98 action in stock, which I think I paid for a long long time ago (either $100 or $400 - I forget), but it is a barrelled action.

The $100 M98 actions disappeared in the 1980's.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: gryphon]
      #222052 - 20/12/12 08:19 PM

Quote:

I bought this similar action/rifle last week for a really lot less than the Churchill.


http://usedguns.com.au/pics/S%2002223.jpg


Calibre/Item: 300 Win Mag
Make: Parker Hale
Model: 1200 Custom
Action: Bolt action
Scope: Simmons 1-5 power scope
Serial No: S 02223
Condition: Good
Advertised: 10/12/2012
Licence number:
Phone:
Comment: Ultra lightweight sambar rifle, excellent bore, Leupold rings, Geoff Slee stock, three round capacity.




No doubt one can find a medium calibre M98 actioned rifle for $1000 to $2000. But a .300 is not a big bore rifle, would require re-barrelling plus whatever other work, and the above rifle, a "ultra lightweight" rifle would not be a suitable candidate at all. Unless someone wanted a .404 with punishing recoil.

BTW could not find that rifle, what price was it?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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gryphon
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Re: 404 Jeffery, is this worth buying [Re: NitroX]
      #222076 - 21/12/12 05:04 AM

For the price i paid to take it to 416 CT another grand makes it a very very cheap hitter. PM sent

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