Forums.NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact NitroExpress.com: Killing vs. Stopping.

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies

*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

You are not logged in. [Login]

Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)

Ben
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: ozhunter]
#165298 - 31/07/10 07:50 AM

Nice bulls, Karl, and nice-shooting by the PH, Ozhunter.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Paul
.400 member

Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Ben]
#165557 - 03/08/10 12:03 AM

Could it be the character of cape buffaloes has changed a bit in the past 100 years? This might seem a crazy question but, as an analogy, I hear that in some parts of NZ red stags have evolved not to roar because those that did got shot, leaving those that didn't to do the diddling.

The reason I wonder is because John Afred Jordan said that buffalo hate humans so much that at the mere smell of one they would try to seek him out, kill him and strip his bones.

Is this still a recognised pattern or do they generally only become maliciously dangerous once wounded?

Not having read 'Mangoso' then, I went to Moz and followed buff for several days that wanted nothing to do with us. Only when some elephants threatened them did they come rushing up a hill, some passing close by and some stopping a few yards in front of us.

Maybe the charge-stopping, big-game rifle has taken care of the extra-stroppy strain that came looking for trouble, leaving the more-circumspect ones to carry on, in some areas at least.

Edited by Paul (03/08/10 12:10 AM)

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

93mouse
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Slovenia

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Paul]
#165644 - 03/08/10 04:55 PM

Quote:

Could it be the character of cape buffaloes has changed a bit in the past 100 years?

Well I am not around for 100 years, but I guess it hasn't. They might get some education, since in heavy hunted areas they are skittish as hell and they would be running at the very first sign of a human proximity - that might be a difference according to 100 years ago. When I was in Zim (May) we were realy pushing them hard and it was only at one occasion when we bumped them 5-6 times that they circled the tall grass and returned to the same patch of jesse they were bumped out of. Only then a PH advised that we are wearing them thin and it wouldn't be wise to push them any further - so we left them then.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: bonanza]
#379929 - 09/10/23 10:56 PM

Quote:

Regarding dangerous game, 4000-5000 Ft/Lbs with .375-.500" projectile has proven to be a good killer. How about stopping a charge? Is a .500 or .577 nitro class necessary or just insurance?

The question is interesting.

It is known that a cartridge 375 H&H Magnum has little stopping effect. I can report stories from people I know. If you need weapons in the class 500 to 577 can be discussed. A friend of mine, for years PH in Zimbabwe and also did backup on elephant hunts, was at last of the opinion that a cartridge caliber 416 Remington Magnum or 416 Rigby would be enough, but he still carried his rifle caliber 458 Win Mag with him on a elephant hunt.

Personally, I would also rather trust weapons in caliber 458 and upwards.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#379947 - 10/10/23 10:17 PM

Quote:

Personally, I would also rather trust weapons in caliber 458 and upwards.

I agree. With a .500 or larger being a step up as a stopper.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

HeymSR20
.300 member

Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 244
Loc: Scotland

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
#380199 - 19/10/23 09:58 AM

I will admit to limited experience of shooting and stopping big game rifles on big grumpy animals. But I am not convinced that horse power is the be all and end all of knocking any animal off its feet and rendering it completely unconscious, which is after all what you want when stopping an animal from either charging you or running off into the deepest darkest bush and depriving you of its carcass.

If a 100gn 243 bullet with a bit under 2,000 ft lbs is perfectly good for a 50 or a 100kg animal, then in proportion for a 1,000kg buffalo or a 7,000 kg elephant you need a lot bigger and a lot more horsepower than a 500gn bullet with 5,000 ft lbs.

Surely whats required for a good stopping rifle is a rifle that the hunter shoots and can hit a small target instinctively, and that then has a bullet with stout enough construction and enough energy and shockwave to cause catastrophic damage to the central nervous system so the animal collapses and the same time doing enough damage to major blood vessels so that it suffers catastrophic loss of blood to it’s major organs that it never regains consciousness. And a good knowledge of an animals anatomy helps as well. Provided the bullet has the penetration and is in the right spot it will work. I would question how much a bigger gun compensates for lack of good shot placement.

Certainly my experience on smaller animals is that a bullet from a 300 win mag in the guts will still go a long way. Whereas a 243 through the vitals will be dead on the spot.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: HeymSR20]
#380204 - 19/10/23 01:10 PM

As aweful as it sounds, if you blow that deers guts up or out, it still won't go far. A small hole in the guts it will go a long way. Eventually did a painfully death.

Breaking important bones is also part of stopping vs killing.

Shock. A near brain miss with a more powerful cartridge might stun an elephant. Whereas from a lighter bullet, next to no effect.

Adrenalin plays a big part too. Wounded and angry, harder to put down.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
#380214 - 20/10/23 04:21 AM

I've read a brain shot from a .600 Nitro, that misses the actual brain by a few minutes will knock the elephant out for up to 20 minutes.

The .577 Nitro, 10 minutes, or so.

Those are Stopping Rifles, imho.

You can kill an elephant with a 300gr. solid from a .375 H&H, however, it is not a stopping rifle ctg., it is a killing rifle, useful for hunting, not stopping.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: DarylS]
#380216 - 20/10/23 07:11 AM

I did not read it but practiced it and was able to observe it myself as an elephant that I tried to shot with the cartridge 500 Schüler and a brain shot, but unfortunately missed the brain, first go down but then immediately got up. Luckily the tracking was successful.

One reason why I prefer the heart shot on elephant in all cases. Two elephants shot in this way with the cartridge 500 Schüler went down on the place.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380218 - 20/10/23 08:09 AM

Stopped and kill with a Hornady 500gr FMJ bullet of a cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum and a frontal brain shot.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4917
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380219 - 20/10/23 08:18 AM

A 375 can be a stopping cartridge on and Elephant. If you shoot and break a leg the Elephant cannot move as they cannot walk on three legs. So I would say that a stopping cartridge is dependent on the projectile and the animal you are hunting.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Rule303]
#380220 - 20/10/23 08:28 AM

One hunt elephants with cartridges caliber 458 and above, and then one can do without unnecessary animal cruelty like shooting in the legs and so on.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380221 - 20/10/23 08:46 AM

Problem buffalo in an oil palm plantation in Malaysia shot with a cartridge 9,3x74R and a DWM 19g FMJ bullet, frontal shot. Stopped, but a second shot was necessary to kill it. Marginal cartridge for this purpose.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380222 - 20/10/23 09:02 AM

Buffalo in the swamps of Kilombero in South Tanzania stopped and killed while running with one heart shot with the cartridge 10,75x68 and the classic thin-walled RWS 22,5g FMJ bullet, a bullet that I classify in the meantime as more than marginal for shooting big game. However, in this case it worked well.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380223 - 20/10/23 09:16 AM

Summarized and in conclusion, stay on the safe side and use enough gun.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380273 - 23/10/23 04:06 PM

Good photos.

I'd love a stopping .577 double rifle.

But one can only carry one rifle. My .450 will do for now and the future. It does well anyway.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
#380274 - 23/10/23 04:08 PM

Btw I think I was told at the BGRC Nationals that David Little of Kynamco / Kynoch is no longer making Kynoch ammunition. Is this so?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
#380278 - 23/10/23 08:21 PM

Unfortunately I do not know that either.

The cartridges shown are from the fifties and sixties, and except one pack, all of them are loaded with Cordite.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4917
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380280 - 23/10/23 08:47 PM

Quote:

One hunt elephants with cartridges caliber 458 and above, and then one can do without unnecessary animal cruelty like shooting in the legs and so on.

Yes and No. Miss a vital with any calibre and the animal is still moving. Now when we are talking Stopping Cartridges we are talking about stopping the animal in a charge generally after the first shot has not done its job. So breaking and Elephants leg in these situations is a very wise move. It stops it and a finishing shot can be delivered. Don't break the leg, a very good target and miss the brain, you end up dead. From what I have read some of the so called stopping cartridges do not stop the Ele with a near miss of the brain, a leg bone shot does.

If the Elephant has been wounded and is moving away then a spine, hip or leg shot is recommended to stop it.

Hunting Elephant with a 458 is shown to be no more effective than with a 416 or 404. If you can't handle a 458 but can a 375, the 375 is the better cartridge for you.

Now if the Elephant is charging you and is not wounded I would be going for a brain or spine shot.

Remembering most other animals cans till move on 3 legs and more susceptible to a near miss of the brain from a large calibre. Least ways that is what I have been told and witnessed with domestic cattle.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4917
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380281 - 23/10/23 08:49 PM

Quote:

Problem buffalo in an oil palm plantation in Malaysia shot with a cartridge 9,3x74R and a DWM 19g FMJ bullet, frontal shot. Stopped, but a second shot was necessary to kill it. Marginal cartridge for this purpose.

Nice looking young Buff. Any idea why it was a problem animal?

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Rule303]
#380286 - 23/10/23 09:58 PM

Quote:

...

... . Any idea why it was a problem animal?

Sure, otherwise we would not have shot it. There is no hunting in Malaysia like we know it from Africa.

The buffalo was coming from the jungle into the oil palm plantation and regularly attacked the workers. They are calling for help and that was the reason why I shot it.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

szihn
.400 member

Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2112
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: ozhunter]
#380292 - 24/10/23 02:59 AM

Breaking bone and/or destroying the brain or spinal cord are the 2 things that STOP animals. If the bullet does either, the stop is instant regardless of what gun or caliber it is fired from. It's obvious that a 500 is far less likely to break up or deviate then a 308 Winchester, but IF the 308 bullet could get through in a straight line and hit the vital targets it's going to drop animals as fast and a 500 or even a 600.

That's a very big "if"

That "if" is the the reason we have or use big guns with big bullets.

But adding power or bullet mass only goes so far. A poor hit that doesn't destroy the brain, spinal cord or break a big bone is not going to be any more effective at stopping a charge (or a "get-away) from a huge gun then it is from a mid size gun. I am sure the larger diameter would will bleed out faster, but enough faster to make a real difference if the animal was charging is doubtful to me. I am sure the 4 bore rifles I've made for customers would bleed out a buffalo or elephant faster then a 375, but if the buff or elephant only hammered you for 6 seconds as opposed to 12 seconds but you were dead or crippled for life in 3 seconds, I'd wonder how much you really gained with the 4 bore.

In the late 70s I had 11 months in 3 African countries and the only 2 rifle calibers I used were 308 (7.62 NATO) and a 404 Jeffery. I also got to see a few 458 Winchesters used. Comparing the 458s and the 404 what I can conclude is that all good hits were equally effective, so-so hits were semi effective and poor hits were not very effective. Old Kynoch 404 ammo shot 400 grain bullets at about 2150. New German 404 ammo shot a 400 grain bullet at about 2400. The 458s shot 500 grain bullets at 2050. I saw no difference, shot to shot, between any of them.

Bullet placement and bullet construction/design were/are vital.

All other things seem to exist for the sole purpose of giving hunters subject matter to debate, but none really seemed to truly matter in the field.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4917
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
#380298 - 24/10/23 08:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...

... . Any idea why it was a problem animal?

Sure, otherwise we would not have shot it. There is no hunting in Malaysia like we know it from Africa.

The buffalo was coming from the jungle into the oil palm plantation and regularly attacked the workers. They are calling for help and that was the reason why I shot it.

Thanks. Knew that about Malaysia was just wondering if it was because the animal was destroying plants or if it was also going after the workers.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4917
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: szihn]
#380299 - 24/10/23 08:14 AM

szihn, you said this better than I.

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

chuck375
.333 member

Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO

Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: ozhunter]
#380300 - 24/10/23 09:01 AM

I have no experience hunting in Africa, but I love my 500 Jeffery and I love this poster!

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (24/10/23 09:02 AM)

Post Extras:

Print Post

Remind Me!

Notify Moderator

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)

Extra information

0 registered and 50 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 15367

Jump to

NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact

Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved