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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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450_366
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #135982 - 23/05/09 06:05 AM

Damn, i want the 650grs load info for the 2650fps load.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #136161 - 26/05/09 03:06 PM

Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now
it is done for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done, since
the picture was taken..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #136566 - 02/06/09 03:35 PM

650 gr with 175 gr of W760 ball powder goes over 2600.

The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #136571 - 02/06/09 09:17 PM

Quote:

Those slugs are as hard as full jacket bullets and at
real high speed, and plates were mild steel.
.....Ed


Cast bullets with lead and antimony and with a touch of arsnic, are heat treatable to brinel 35 - max. I seem to remember that dead soft copper is brinel 40. Pure lead is brinel 5, WW run at about 9 to 13 depending on who made them, while Linotype is brinel 22 & brittle. Foundry type is brinel 28.
Ordinary lead/antimony WW can be heat treatable to brinel 34/35 & will penetrate animals just like a non-deforming FMJ RN or FN. Some jacketed ones aren't as good as the lead variety in penetration.

Speed allows penetration all out of proportion to the materials used. A .224", 48gr. soft varmint bullet going through 1/2" of armour plate, yet an issue FMJ '06 made .008" deep pock mark and a .270 130gr. nothing more than a lead splash on the same plate.

For more information on "Jacketed Performance From Cast Bullets", everyone needs Veral Smith's book. Google comes to mind or addresses ro Veral from castbulletassn.org.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Posts: 649
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #136871 - 07/06/09 12:19 PM

Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #136886 - 07/06/09 11:21 PM

Big Boomer indeed!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #137184 - 12/06/09 03:14 PM

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #137459 - 17/06/09 02:51 PM

Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor.
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot.The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Posts: 649
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #137966 - 25/06/09 02:50 PM

Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on
the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #138137 - 28/06/09 02:22 PM

Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weaponsforum
has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building
it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish
in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. Looks easily big enough
for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking
mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring
and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the
breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach.
It is the the only one like it. They've put a lot of work
into it, especially the hammer block striker setup.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #138526 - 06/07/09 02:35 AM

In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened
and some mag work. Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #139224 - 19/07/09 01:41 PM

Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Using most
cast 12ga bullets like Dixies, the overall length with
3.5 brass is 3.9" and fits 4.05" box ok. Here is picture
PH from bottom showing its big size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has
great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #139796 - 30/07/09 05:22 PM

I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any. 4 bore cases shown,
and I'll use a big ammomaster press for them..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #140061 - 05/08/09 02:52 PM

Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore,
showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating
stop action photo work, as if anyone wwould be brave
enough to put a camera out in front of it
when it fired. Will have it firing by fall.
I plan on using hollowbase lead slugs of
about 1600gr, as it is a smoothbore. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #140062 - 05/08/09 03:22 PM

Why?

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: kamilaroi]
      #140091 - 06/08/09 03:34 AM

For fun and sport. And for the thrill of
making holes big enough to see easy while
getting a wild ride.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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richla
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Reged: 18/05/07
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #140093 - 06/08/09 04:28 AM

Why? Why not!
Keep up the good work, Ed!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: richla]
      #140110 - 06/08/09 11:04 AM

Buck and ball loads are tremendous close-in from such a find 'big bore'. I'd think a good sized handful of 000buck on top of a 4 bore ball should do the trick just fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #140569 - 14/08/09 03:56 PM

got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really gets the
speed in 3.5" cases, as in 3.5" cases,as seal/wads about same,
extra length for powder. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. Muzzle pressure is about 3500-4000 psi.
I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #140801 - 19/08/09 05:32 PM

Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action.
It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a
12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga
barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel
for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am
doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with
MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real
power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also,
as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs
and a loading port that can be lengthened.
And they have a nice style...Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #141177 - 26/08/09 04:48 PM

We get asked about finned slugs for
12ga smooth bores and if they take high
speed. Well they'll do just as good at high
speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee
OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long
barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin
finned slug I will get and test later. Third is
BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87.
I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore
12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size.Ed







--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #141473 - 02/09/09 03:56 PM

Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #141650 - 06/09/09 02:06 PM

Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga
NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes
these. They are hollow point. 3" group at
50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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Matthew
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Reged: 27/08/09
Posts: 36
Loc: Bend, OR
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #141875 - 11/09/09 12:28 PM

Who is doing chambering for these? Anyone have a reamer?

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #141894 - 11/09/09 11:23 PM

Quote:

Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed





This is very important and most interesting, Ed - which, of course, you know.
Real world power at less than factory breech pressure - or longer, lower pressure curve - all good stuff for reasonably heavy barrels.
I havent' accuracy tested the Lyman slug yet in my rifled Mossy 835, but turned in some amazing accuracy using WW alloy round balls - stacking, on one top of the other at 30 yards, offhand - good speeds too, using 30gr. of SR4756 in 2 3/4" cases. So far, I haven't tested the 3" hulls I've prepared from 3 1/2" factory. I expect an easy 1,700fps with the 550gr. RB's. What terrific in-camp bear loads these will be, as well as straight hunting loads for bear and moose. More power than needed, of course, but exciting non-the-less. I'd not expect that hard ball to stay inside a bull moose out to 100 yards.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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