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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: thorshammer]
      #126022 - 07/02/09 12:29 AM

very snob like attitudes,i had a 458 lott it was glass bedded double cross bolts,action was smooth,but if you want to brag in camp about how much money you spent on your rifle please do this rifle is very functionable.you can engrave and gold plate a hammer but it still hits the nail no better than the arm that delivers the blow to the nail.wood was nice not fancy but nice.why is it if its not done in england its not done right.but like all else its your right to like what you want.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: bwananelson]
      #126025 - 07/02/09 12:56 AM

Nobody has ever accused me of being a gun snob, but I can say I would be very, very careful about buying a CZ for a DG gun.

This is where my habit of rough functioning guns has really paid off. Granted, my CZ550 wouldn't function with gentle handling and as for my previous CZ527, well...

Now as I've said before, I have a dead reliable 550 that is one of my favorites. But the work to get it there, WOW.

All the while, there sits my SAKO AIII/V in .375. Never a bump along the way till after years of near abuse I got some foreward bedding issues that needed attention. Nearly 3,000 rounds thru it, reblued as it was white. What a gun!!

Would I buy a DG gun from CZ?

Maybe, in one of the more "normal" calibers; .375, .458 Win/Lott, maybe .404.

I would MAKE SURE I had at least a year before any hunt I planned to use it on and I would require it to shoot at least 500 rounds without a hitch before I'd rely on it. I would function it with a full magazine, part mag, from each side of the mag, absolutely dry, soaking wet and gobbed with oil. I would learn its quirks {they all have them} and I would address each one as it pops up AND FIX IT. I'd bed the gun and would not trust factory "wood-only" bedding regardless.

Yes, it would take about a year, probably, and that would barely give enough time to get it to and back from CZ for them to fix any big snag I ran into.

Some guys like their guns to be pristine. I don't give a damn about blue wear or a ding here and there. I do require every gun of mine to be dead reliable.

And my CZ527??

I lost a shot at a stock killer one time. I saw the pack of dogs from the house heading for my horses, grabbed the rifle by the door and ran down to the pheasant cage to get closer. There the high grass obscured them, but when a piece of hip appeared I put the crosshairs on the point and broke the trigger. Number one went down screaming. The rest of the pack ran to it and one gave me a clear shoulder shot. I had already worked the bolt and leaning against the cage I broke the trigger. Nothing. Looking down, I realized the round had not risen and needed to be fumbled with. Done fumbling, the pack was on the railroad tracks heading east fast.

That little CZ527 jammed right when I needed it most. It had a problem no amount of work could repair, a true engineering design fault. It is gone. Tho we shot a number of deer, coyotes and ground squirrels and of course that one dog with it, I couldn't rely on it so out the door it went. Good riddance.

DG Game? Not to me, but those things are dangerous to my stock, and that gun let me down. No other gun will ever do that to me if I have anything to say about it.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (07/02/09 01:20 AM)


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: 9.3x57]
      #126030 - 07/02/09 02:16 AM

Reliability in a bolt gun is a beautiful thing. Let me tell you about one of my favorite rifles. a pre-War Model 70 Winchester, serial number in the 27,000 range.

High power competetive shooting on the rifle range involves rapid fire: ten shots standing to sitting in 60 seconds at 200 yards, ten shots standing to prone at 300 yards in 70 seconds. The target is the same at both ranges, with a 3" "X" ring, a 7" "10" ring and a 13" "9" ring.

The shooter starts with a loaded magazine, bolt open, standing up on the firing point. When the targets appear, he goes into position, closes the bolt and fires five shots, then, using a stripper clip, recharges the magazine and fires the remaining five shots. It takes about 12 seconds to get into position and break the first shot and between 8-10 seconds more to break the sixth shot after reloading When you subtract another 5 seconds as a safety margin, the shooter actually has about 35 seconds at 200 yards and 45 seconds at 300 yards to fire the ten shots, about 3.5 to 4.5 seconds per shot, using metallic sights, which have to be aligned with each other and the target for every shot.

It's important that the shots all go on the right target,(there are up to 150 targets in a row at Camp Perry) so a certain amount of time is spent with each shot verifying that the target being aimed at is the correct one. Also, using a rifle chambered for the .308 Winchester cartridge means that there is a certain amount of recoil which must be dealt with.

Having a bolt action which is easy to operate and reliable is a given.

I remember once at the National Matches at Camp Perry I fumbled the reload at 300 yards. I don't remember what exactly happened, but somehow I broke the stripper clip and ended up having to load two rounds individually from the mat. I glanced at my stop watch as I finally closed the bolt and went back into position. 8 seconds left before the targets disappeared. Somehow I blazed them off and when the targets came up, all were at least in the "9" ring. If I had "saved" a round or two, I would have lost 10 points per round. That's not significant compared to getting et, but it meant a lot to me at the time.

I have no idea how many rounds I have through that rifle. but I have worn out several barrels with it at about 6000 rounds per barrel and it has never let me down. That's what I call reliability.

I will never own a hunting rifle which I could test to the extent my target rifles have been tested, but hours of practice in the field, firing countless reduced loads with lead bullets gave me a sense of confidence in them which proved fully justified in the field. That is a practice I would recommend to anyone planning to hunt dangerous game, in Africa or elsewhere, or non-dangerous game, for that matter, where a reliable second shot might make the difference between a quick kill and a long drawn out search for wounded game.

In its previous incarnation as a .375 H&H my ZKK 602, manufactured in the 1960's, was totally reliable. In its new incarnation as a .500 Jeffery, it will have to prove itself.


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9.3x57
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: xausa]
      #126043 - 07/02/09 03:34 AM

Thanks Bill!!!

Great account, and a reminder to all those who put their faith and trust in guns off-the-rack.

A great man once said; "Trust, but Verify!"

BTW: An Ole Guy that is building 500's at 70 deserves resounding kudos!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY AND SEMPER FI!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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bigboar
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: 9.3x57]
      #126072 - 07/02/09 09:06 AM

First I like to say: Thank you everyone for the encouragement and advise.

I just got off the phone with AHR, American Hunting Rifles. I guess, these folks are CZ 550 experts. Beside building full custom rifles on the 550 action, they have a thriving business fixing the problems with factory new guns. The action can be smoothed and feed problems corrected for under $100 bucks. Based on the knowledgeable response on the phone and recommendations from this forum, I will probably have them fix the 458 feeding. They offer a very appealing package for $500. That includes a 3 position bolt safety, reshaping the bolt handle and install a new trigger. A full level 1 upgrade should correct any and all potential reliability issues. That is the claim. Opinions?

So for somewhere between 1100 and 1500 it appears, I can have a good to better 458 Lott. I guess the next good day over 40 degrees (F), I will test fire the Lott. Find out if both myself and the rifle can deliver the goods.

I mentioned (maybe not clearly) the 505 Gibbs has been returned to the factory. Depending how this comes back it may get the above mentioned package. The more I fondle the ammo, the more I have my heart set on a 505. I think at this point there is no turning back.

Thats where it stands for now.


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: bigboar]
      #126076 - 07/02/09 09:18 AM

That's what it's all about mate: if your heart is 'in it' then your brain will find a way to fix the problems. Enjoy your rifles.

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thorshammer
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: tophet1]
      #126077 - 07/02/09 09:38 AM

Ed plummers operation of fixing czs from what ive herd from friends and other smiths is top notch and worth every penny but also may want him to add a cross bolt or 2 being is cz tend to split their stocks and I think the rule is as anything over 338 cross bolt is a must

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bwananelson
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: thorshammer]
      #126089 - 07/02/09 11:20 AM

i did read that the cz was the most common rifle at the PH testing in africa.must be something there.BTW i dont mean anything about the snobish remark but it seems if its not an old english H+H is not up to the job.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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bigboar
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: bwananelson]
      #126096 - 07/02/09 12:14 PM

These two guns are both equipped with 2 cross bolts (each). Apparently some early production rifles were not and now that problem has been corrected.

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tophet1
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: bigboar]
      #126110 - 07/02/09 02:30 PM

Keep us posted bigboar on what happens to those rifles, and welcome to the forum mate. Good choice.

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ChinaFleetSailor
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues *DELETED* [Re: thorshammer]
      #126114 - 07/02/09 05:11 PM

Quote:


I'm afraid you would not get far alleging fraud in a case where a firearm failed to feed a cartridge correctly. Since the rifle was manufactured in the Czech Republic, presumably it underwent proof testing and was certified safe to shoot with standard ammunition. That should be enough to mount a successful defense against a charge of negligence, let alone fraud, which is an offence involving criminal intent. Case dismissed!




My first thoughts when reading this went something along these lines. Because not only was my CZ550 presumably proof tested, it was shipped with a test target.

That is certainly a well stocked Cabela's you have near you, if you can go pick up ammo for a .505 Gibbs. What brand of ammo did you use?

The reason I ask is because my second thought went something like this: CZ USA is just the importer; CZ is still the manufacturer. All their firearms are tested at the Czech proof house before they could be offered for sale. And the Czech Republic is a member of C.I.P., which is analogous to SAAMI but for Europe, so the Czech proof house would conduct its testing according to the same standards as those in Great Britain, Spain, etc. I'd hazard a guess that CZ would have chambered their rifle according to whatever dimensions the certifying body says are the dimensions of the .505 Gibbs cartridge.

If the ammo they used in the Czech Republic was dimensioned to C.I.P. standards and the ammo you used wasn't, I could see a problem. The dimensions might differ.

I don't really know much about the .505 Gibbs, but I do know that was a potential pitfall when manufacturers thought about bringing back the .500 Jeffery. Dimensions of the cartridge and chamber varied between manufacturers.


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ChinaFleetSailor
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: thorshammer]
      #126171 - 08/02/09 05:00 AM

Quote:

Ed plummers operation of fixing czs from what ive herd from friends and other smiths is top notch and worth every penny but also may want him to add a cross bolt or 2 being is cz tend to split their stocks and I think the rule is as anything over 338 cross bolt is a must




Ed Plummer retired in 2007. He sold his operation to Wayne Jacobson. Which isn't to say that AHR doesn't do good work anymore since Ed left. Wayne worked with Ed before the shop changed hands, so I'm sure the quality now is just as good as before the transition.

Just to clarify my previous post. CZ-USA doesn't manufacture the CZ product line. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of CZ in the Czech Republic. It is the US distributor of CZ products, and also the warranty service center.

I suppose the fact they recently set up a custom here in the US muddies the waters a little, but they still don't manufacture the off-the shelf products. I pulled out the paperwork from my files just to make sure I had my ducks in a row. My CZ550 Safari Magnum was also distributed by CZ-USA. But the paperwork clearly states it was made in the Czech Republic.

So, as I said, I'm unclear as to how a rifle manufactured in the Czech Republic to CIP standards and proof tested at the Czech government proof house could have possibly slipped through without being properly chambered.

Second, when a round of ammo doesn't chamber in a rifle, there is more than one variable involved. The ammo also could be at fault. That would be my first suspicion, not only for the above reasons but also because my CZ550 in 416 was delivered to me with a test target. I'd take that as evidence that it functioned and fired with whatever ammo the manufacturer used. I'd first try to find out what type of ammo the manufacturer used to test the rifle. Then determine if the ammo I used, or if reloads the dies I used, were manufactured according to the same set of dimensions.

I obviously don't have any experience with the "Safari Classic" line; are you saying they charge several order of magnitudes over their regular line of Safari Magnums, but don't proof test or function check them with the same rigor as the lower priced models? There wasn't a test target included with the paperwork that came with the rifle?

I'm not saying that such things as a 505 Gibbs rifle that won't chamber 505 Gibbs ammo can't happen. There are tons of stories of S&W N-frame revolvers being shipped with barrels marked and bored for 44 mag ammo and cylinders bored for the 41 mag cartridge. S&W had its quality control issues, too, during its history depending on what consortium owned it. But S&W revolvers weren't sent to an independent agency to be double checked and proofed before being shipped.


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bigboar
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #126197 - 08/02/09 06:52 AM

ChinaFleet...

The 505 ammo from Cabelas was A Square. I also had one round that had been formed from 577 Bell brass. I forgot who did that, I just picked up one round to show my friends. But that extra round was something to give me confidence the A Square was sized correctly. Cabelas can special order anything you need, but it turned out they just happened to have to boxes in the Gun Library room. The 505 A square is or was listed on their web site.

Neither gun came with a test target. I just double check my file folder to be sure. This is very odd indeed. You have a target with your 416.

Yes, you have a point about the Safari Classic thats $3k and the almost identical American is $1k. The difference you ask? First is the sling stud is mounted on the bbl as opposed to the stock. Second is the wood is better. Not fancy and not even as nice as Ruger, but a definite step up on the wood. The shape of the stock is identical. Same sights, same magazine depth, same trigger and even same recoil pad same finish and checkering. The 505 does boast multiple recoil damping devices. I had assumed these guns would be given some extra TLC, but apparently they offer calibers not available else where and you pay for the limited demand special runs. And in the case of 505 extra measures to dampen the recoil.

Keep in mind that not only did the 505 fail to chamber but the bore was rough and scratched the cases when only partially chambered. Although a different standard for ammo would explain a lot. I sent two rounds to Kansas City. The shipping was handled by the dealer who ordered the gun for me. So; if he did his job they got sample ammo, shipped separately.


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thorshammer
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Reged: 27/12/08
Posts: 150
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: bigboar]
      #126205 - 08/02/09 08:08 AM

Just imagine the fun some guys are going to have trying to get the new 425 wr to feed from cz

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doubleriflenut
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Reged: 27/11/08
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: bigboar]
      #126207 - 08/02/09 08:11 AM

Other members are correct when the say "a CZ is a good platform to start with". I have a brand new one that is in 458 Lott with the deluxe wood. The inletting was obviously completed by someone with a chain saw and the entire piece is generally crude. the action is basically very strong and with some de-horning and smoothing would be great. I will buy the CZ actions from Brownell's, send them to PacNor for barrel and chamber work,and select a good stock maker to complete the job. I would also find a metal to add a second recoil lug to the barrel and smooth the action like the old pre-war Rigby's. Then you will have a rifle that will be perfect in my humble opinion.

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doubleriflenut
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: thorshammer]
      #126209 - 08/02/09 08:12 AM

That will be a feat of monumental proportions!

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thorshammer
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #126212 - 08/02/09 08:26 AM

If they can pull off the 425 ill be in shock and awe

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #126228 - 08/02/09 10:50 AM

Quote:

The inletting was obviously completed by someone with a chain saw and the entire piece is generally crude.

I forgot to mention I am dead certain a banana was used as a template for the fore stock profiling...

the action is basically very strong and with some de-horning and smoothing would be great.

As I mentioned in my thread on my 6.5x55-to-9.3x62 project, on top of all my feed work I did, my bolt stuck in the back position after a time and had to be sort-of jiggled to go forward. Locking lugs were not beveled properly so I introduced them to Mr Dremel and after a while I got that sorted out. The mechanical mayhem I put up with to get it where it is today is frightful, but the gun is now dead reliable, truly controlled feed and working the action nearly feels like a Krag. I really like it. Had I not been inclined to work on it, the thing would have cost a lot of money to get right or would have been better served as a tomato stake. No gun of whatever price should have ever left the factory like mine did.




Fellows, does anyone know if CZ550's have ever been purchased by any African game departments??? If so, in what calibers, and has anyone seen one close enough to know if it is more than a single shot held together by duct tape?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
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Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: 9.3x57]
      #126231 - 08/02/09 12:02 PM

I would just like to add some balance to the discussion on CZ quality.

I purchased a CZ550 American last year in .308W (as most of you know).
I had the trigger rebuilt to a single stage from the set trigger as that is what I like.
The action was rough to cycle until I used a heavy viscosity lubricant (forget the name) and cycled the action a couple of dozen times.
I worked out a load and took it to Africa and took 7 animals with 7 shots at ranges from 40 metres to 150 metres.

Since then I have had the rifle bedded in anticipation of longer range ( 300-400 yard ) shots at Springbok.

The rifle is fine apart from that.

I will agree, it seems that CZ quality is a bit of a lottery for the members here but there are good ones out there.


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doubleriflenut
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: 9.3x57]
      #126240 - 08/02/09 12:41 PM

LMAO!!!! I like the banana for a stock pattern! I also forgot to mention that the barrel needs to have a decent crown machined as the existing one is just begging to be damaged. A good smith could work the interior of the action over and make it very nice. Like I said, I will buy their actions(CZ) but not the complete rifles. I would not encourage the use of a Dremmel tool unless the user knows what he is doing. I also forgot to mention that the recoil lugs on my rifle were only making contact with about 30% of each lug, so the barrel needs to be pulled so the action can be squared and the lugs lapped into perfect contact. I am also amazed at the funny recoil lug that they used? Weird to say the least. I would scrap that as well and have a lug soldered on the barrel. Finally a pair of cross bolts would be nice and very functional as well. Just my opinion.

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doubleriflenut
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: tophet1]
      #126241 - 08/02/09 12:45 PM

That is good news! I am certain that a good number of rifles will be sold that will have no problems at all. The problem is that ALL of them should be inspected and go through a QC person prior to sending them to dealers. If the rifle is for dangerous game, the problem(s) are much more serious.

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Bramble
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: thorshammer]
      #126244 - 08/02/09 01:16 PM

Quote:

Just imagine the fun some guys are going to have trying to get the new 425 wr to feed from cz




The "new" .425WR is not a problem to make feed. It was designed to fit a standard, not magnum M98 action in 1909. It is only 3.30" long (shorter than a 30-06 and shares the same head diamiter. The case diamiter is about that of the .404 so the rails will need easing, but that is about all.

Regards


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ChinaFleetSailor
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: bigboar]
      #126254 - 08/02/09 02:48 PM

Quote:



Neither gun came with a test target. I just double check my file folder to be sure. This is very odd indeed. You have a target with your 416.





I do indeed have a test target that came with my 416. It's entirely in Czech, of course, but it's clear what information it was intended to convey. It was shot at 100 meters, is stamped with the rifle's chambering, has my rifle's serial no. written in the appropriate field, and it's signed and stamped by an inspector.

This is very odd. That a manufacturer would lower its QC standards for its most expensive models, below what it maintains for its lower end products. It isn't that CZ doesn't know how to build a rifle or maintain a certain quality level. It's just a matter of consistently doing what the company has demonstrated it already knows how to do.

Of course, it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer let quality slip. The same thing happened at S&W, Colt, and Winchester. Poor QC is one of the stated reasons USRAC quit manufacturing rifles in New Haven.


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450_366
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #126268 - 08/02/09 06:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Neither gun came with a test target. I just double check my file folder to be sure. This is very odd indeed. You have a target with your 416.





I do indeed have a test target that came with my 416. It's entirely in Czech, of course, but it's clear what information it was intended to convey. It was shot at 100 meters, is stamped with the rifle's chambering, has my rifle's serial no. written in the appropriate field, and it's signed and stamped by an inspector.

This is very odd. That a manufacturer would lower its QC standards for its most expensive models, below what it maintains for its lower end products. It isn't that CZ doesn't know how to build a rifle or maintain a certain quality level. It's just a matter of consistently doing what the company has demonstrated it already knows how to do.

Of course, it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer let quality slip. The same thing happened at S&W, Colt, and Winchester. Poor QC is one of the stated reasons USRAC quit manufacturing rifles in New Haven.




They do build 416 in their own magnum range at cz so its not that strange, but i think peter is right about the big ones.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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9.3x57
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Re: CZ Safari Classic 550 Quality Issues [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #126304 - 09/02/09 02:00 AM

Quote:

I am also amazed at the funny recoil lug that they used?




I must be getting older...

I forgot to add; the 9.3x62 barrel came with a deep dovetail cut into the CHAMBER and in it, dangling, barely on and easily removed WITH THE FINGERS was a second recoil lug*.

It flopped about like a dewclaw on a hound's leg.

Expectations of results in gun buying should not be akin to expectations associated with buying Lotto tickets. The win is merely what you paid for in the case of the gun, and in the case of Lotto something significantly more. Granted, the odds seem similar in both circumstances.

My gun represents both poor initial setup {6.5x55 issues, stocking, feeding, action roughness/disfunction} AND further screwups associated with the rebarreling; wrong mag box & follower and that weird recoil shoulder abortion. And, the promised "reworked extractor" never materialized, even after followup calls. And I haven't posted a pic of the up-close of my bolt head machining.

If I sound critical, it is because I am critical.

I would not doubt for one second that the top-end guns are worse put together than the bottom end guns. No insults intended and none earned on this Forum, but seriously, in my gun-selling days I found rich guys to be alot easier to dupe than auto workers. How many ultra-heavies get shot more than 20 times? The ones that are probably are worked over so hard by the buyer and nothing is mentioned due to sheer embarassment of the buyer. Regardless of the motivation, they ARE worked over by those that shoot them. I'm guessing there...

Heck, even the 9.3x62 American written up in the article by Gash in Rifle a few years ago came from the factory with...AN EIGHT POUND TRIGGER!

Obviously somebody in the CZ plant mixed up the Skorpion submachinegun specs with the 550 moose gun specs when they assembled Steve's rifle.

A reliable .425?

In the final analysis, in my opinion, I strongly recommend ANY buyer of a CZ to think hard before doing so. I'm not telling you NOT to, but... Honestly, if you do not know how to use a Dremel, files, emery paper, chisel, bedding compound and have difficulty following UPS shipping directions OR unless you have easy liquidity in your skyrocketing stock portfolio, buy something else. Regardless, give yourself lots of time to MAKE sure the gun works before buying a special rifle for an expensive hunt.

Can you make a great rifle out of a cob? Absolutely. I generally like the design of the gun actions and like the idea about using one for a custom gun, but my opinionated recommendations remain. Be careful. Don't buy one of these guns and have your heart set on zeroing it in and heading for Africa in a week.

* NB: What in the world is a second recoil shoulder even doing on a 9.3x62...??

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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