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bulldog563
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Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX
      #76984 - 19/04/07 01:50 PM

Just saw this on the Hunting Report;

Fair Chase Cape Buffalo Hunts In Texas

(Originally published in the August 2006 issue.)



Here’s an interesting find. Correspondent Ray Sasser tells us there is a place in Texas that has set its sights on creating an American version of the experience of going on safari in southern African. This company even intends to offer hunts for Cape buffalo. He writes:


“The Crown X Ranch is a 37,000-acre property in the Chinati Mountain Range 34 miles south of Marfa, Texas. It is owned by a wealthy German named Howard Schwerdtfeger, who, enamored with the American West, began putting the Crown X Ranch together some 28 years ago. In 1997 Schwerdtfeger started collecting exotic animals. He game-fenced about 7,000 acres, including one 6,000-acre pasture and numerous smaller enclosures for breeding pens. He currently has 30 species of mostly African game on hand, including kudu, gemsbok, sable, eland, waterbuck, nyala, addax and even Cape buffalo.

“The Crown X currently has three Cape buffalo bulls, and Schwerdtfeger is shopping for cows and more bulls. He plans to offer fair-chase hunts for all this game, including the Cape buffalo. In fact, he is currently enclosing three sides of his 37,000 acres with game-proof fence. The fourth side is the mountain range, which creates a natural barrier that will keep most of the animals from leaving the Crown X. Mountain species like aoudad and ibex will come and go at will. The elevations on the Crown X range from 4,200 feet to 7,700 feet.

“‘What I’m trying to create is an environment similar to a very large South African hunting ranch,” Schwerdtfeger told me. ‘The animals will be free-ranging, self-sustaining herds that interact with one another. We have at least 1,000 animals now, and they are reproducing well.’

“That is basically what sets the Crown X apart from other Texas exotic operations I have visited. The animals to be hunted on the Crown X are going to be animals that were born and raised on the property, and most of the hunts will be for free-ranging animals on 30,000 acres unbroken by additional game fences.

“Many Texas exotics operations may have several thousand acres overall, but are divided into smaller pastures, each contained by a game fence. Other hunting operations also typically buy animals from dealers and release them just before the hunt. Some of those animals are not particularly afraid of people and are not familiar with the terrain of the property where they are released. Many ranches have only a handful of animals mature enough to be considered trophies.

“Schwerdtfeger has brought in veteran Texas hunting outfitter Jim Roche to help with the operation. Roche has now run a couple of exploratory hunts on the Crown X Ranch, and his enthusiasm for the place is through the roof. The Crown X will be offering hunts this year and is in the planning stages of building its own hunting lodge. Clients this year will have two lodging options. One is to stay in a portable camp that Roche has previously used for Alaskan moose hunts. He describes it as a very comfortable hunting camp located on the ranch. A second option is to stay at the neighboring Cibolo Creek Ranch, a 4-star resort that regularly hosts the rich and famous, including actor and Texas resident Tommy Lee Jones. Cibolo Creek Ranch is a 25-minute drive from the Crown X and has a 5,300-foot paved runway that’s ideal for most private aircraft.

“The price structure is not yet complete, but the basic hunting fee is $250 a day (based on double occupancy) with trophy fees added on. Roche said some of the ranch’s more common animals carry relative bargain prices — $4,500 for eland, $1,950 for aoudad, $1,750 for purestrain mouflon. The Crown X also has native North American game such as Rocky Mountain elk, desert mule deer, Carmen Mountain whitetails (a subspecies of whitetail similar to Coues’ deer) and javelina.

“The Schwerdtfeger family believes its investment and dedication to creating a South African-style hunting preserve will benefit from concerns about worldwide terrorism, airline woes and trophy importation problems. They expect most of their clients to be Americans, but hunting African game in Texas may appeal to a worldwide clientele, especially those who travel to the Southwest on business. For more details, contact Jim Roche at 325-853-1555, or visit his web site at www.magnumguideservice.com.

--------------------
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allenday
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: bulldog563]
      #77035 - 20/04/07 04:27 AM

I'll either hunt African big game, including Cape buffalo, in Africa, or else I won't be hunting it at all.

Don't get me wrong, I love the great state of Texas, and I love to hunt there, but not for African game..........

AD


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EricD
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: allenday]
      #77036 - 20/04/07 04:36 AM

The upside of such gamefarms in Texas or elsewhere could potentially be that at least a few less people will go to Africa, leaving more room for us!

I wonder who they will use as trackers? Will they also be imported from Africa?


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allenday
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: EricD]
      #77062 - 20/04/07 08:29 AM

Maybe from across the Rio Grande!

AD


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: allenday]
      #77091 - 20/04/07 05:21 PM

"“The Crown X currently has three Cape buffalo bulls, and Schwerdtfeger is shopping for cows and more bulls. He plans to offer fair-chase hunts for all this game, including the Cape buffalo."

With only three cape buffalo bulls and NO COWS (good breeding plan there ), even if he buys more semi-tame cape buffalo it will be a LONG TIME before there is anything resembling FAIR CHASE cape buffalo hunting on that game farm. If ever.

How is fencing three sides of the 'ranch' going to keep antelope in? Mountains going to keep them in? I doubt it.

The article reads like BS to me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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hoppdoc
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: NitroX]
      #77097 - 20/04/07 09:04 PM

With what he has and the size of his herd it would be cheaper to go to Africa.Fair Chase et al-

I bet even getting them into the USA involves paperwork that goes on for years!!

How did he get them into the USA? I thought it was illegal to import cape buffalo.
Dangerous animal and all that---

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Double_Trouble
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: NitroX]
      #77100 - 20/04/07 09:29 PM

Nitro
in fairness,the article does say "that the mountains will keep MOST of the game in" but I, like you, agree the mountains leave a pretty big hole and I cant see paying for and importing exotic game animals and then turning them loose so they can free range their way across the southwestern USA.

Makes little or no sense to me.

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #77107 - 20/04/07 10:07 PM

Quote:

"that the mountains will keep MOST of the game in" but I, like you, agree the mountains leave a pretty big hole ...




Even buffalo can get up some pretty rough country. He would need pretty solid cliff lines to keep the game in.


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BFaucett
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: NitroX]
      #77157 - 21/04/07 05:37 AM

Ohhh lord... I can just see it now.... Feral Cape Buffalo to go along with our feral hogs here in Texas!!!

-Bob F.


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Double_Trouble
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: BFaucett]
      #77159 - 21/04/07 05:50 AM

Just another reason that the Lone Star State is a little slice of heaven!


DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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DoubleD
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #77171 - 21/04/07 01:49 PM

Why should I pay the same price or more to hunt African game in the U.S. than in Africa?

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: DoubleD]
      #77466 - 26/04/07 02:44 PM

Actually I think if one was hunting on the ranch for plains game, and there were also a handfull (better if even more) of cape buffalo wild or semi-wild on the ranch, it would be quite cool. In Africa when hunting plains game I always find it more fun if you are hunting somewhere which also has elephant or buffalo or big cats ....... A lions roar in the distance or at night ..... Finding elephant spoor and droppings over the blood splotches of a wounded zebra you are following up ..... all add to the fun of the hunt.

Hunting cape buffalo at a place like that would not be for me, however if they are appeared wild - I have seen water buffalo behind wire on a very large property that were tame as cows - and were cheap enough why not? It is still hunting. Usually the price is a multiple of what it costs in Africa in Texas.

But it would be fun to hunt an eland for meat, down the road (not down my road, but for you! ) if the price was right. If the hunting was hard and fun it is still a trophy. Just not an African trophy.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Trapper
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: NitroX]
      #77522 - 27/04/07 12:23 PM

Funny someone brought this up. I just saw this add in my Jan/Feb Safari magazine
http://www.jroutfitters.com/index2.html

The place is in Florida.

--------------------
"The mass of men lead lives of quite desperation"


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johncxr
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Reged: 09/12/07
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Loc: Alpine, Texas, USA
Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: Trapper]
      #91014 - 09/12/07 07:22 AM

Here is the website to what you are commenting on.

www.cxsafaris.com


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: NitroX]
      #91026 - 09/12/07 10:19 AM

Quote:

Actually I think if one was hunting on the ranch for plains game, and there were also a handfull (better if even more) of cape buffalo wild or semi-wild on the ranch, it would be quite cool. In Africa when hunting plains game I always find it more fun if you are hunting somewhere which also has elephant or buffalo or big cats ....... A lions roar in the distance or at night ..... Finding elephant spoor and droppings over the blood splotches of a wounded zebra you are following up ..... all add to the fun of the hunt. .





**I agree totally with the above--that is what hunting if Africa is all about..Not just the harvesting of an animal..however there will be those that will take advantage of this but they will NEVER know the thrill of actually being in Africa...which is too bad for them..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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gator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: Ripp]
      #91032 - 09/12/07 11:34 AM

They have been doing that for a few years now.

I think its cool, some beef running around in the back yard.


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hoppdoc
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: gator]
      #91045 - 09/12/07 01:43 PM

Fired off an e-mail out of curiousity--

subject = Buff hunting
comments = Are Cape Buff available and for how much??
REMOTE_HOST: 74.229.240.17




We have yet to establish a breeding herd of Cape Buffalo. The females are almost imposible to come by. They cost from $50,000.00 to purchase in America. Once we have established a breeding herd that is sustainable we may consider hunting. This is most likely ten to fifteen years from now, we don't really know. As our website states, we only hunt to manage the herds of animals that we have, the price of the animal depends on how much demand there is. Sometimes there is more money in selling the animals than there is in hunting them.

Please visit our website again for new information.

Thank you for contacting us.

John Schwerdtfeger


His plans are obvious.Most of us will be infirm or dead before any Buff hunting could take place in the states--

Obviously,for Buff its "Off to Africa"!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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gator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: hoppdoc]
      #91082 - 10/12/07 02:18 AM

There are a few places in Texas and Florida that have the Buffalo. Those are the only 2 states that I know of. They usually advertize in SCI's magazine.

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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: gator]
      #92856 - 29/12/07 02:13 AM

Very interesting discussion.

Since it appears there is almost total agreement here, I'm going to offer up a completely different view of this place.

First, my own opinion is that ranch hunting of any type is not very appealing to me at least as long as there are other options. So let me get that out up front. In that I agree with most of the posts here.

My second point is that it is fine to say "Texas isn't Africa" {which is admittedly true... }, but I suggest that neither is Africa. At least South Africa. And SOUTH AFRICA is the confessed model for the operation.

I am a life member of the KwaZulu/Natal Hunters and Conservation Association, was involved for a short time in the devlopment of a so-called "wilderness leadership school" in South Africa, own a small ranch myself here in Idaho, and am watching with great interest the creeping change of land management here in Idaho among the large private landowners {timber companies, primarily}. I also spent a summer putting 5,500 km on a rented vehicle travelling throughout South Africa from joburg to Cape Town via Natal and the coast. Folks, ever-increasing, intensive land management is on its way wherever is doesn't already exist...

At any rate, I still try to keep somewhat abreast of the trends there, and I have hunted on a couple different game ranches in South Africa and spent some time studying the game ranch system for personal reasons related to my own place. I have hiked and travelled {a little hunting also} in some remote parts of central Africa. A true remote, wild "African" experience is available in South Africa, but it is far more difficult to obtain than most tourist hunters are willing to admit in public after they return to the States IMO. There are ranches in SA that offer a bit of the old Africa, but with its burgeoning population, highways, development and the nature of game fenced operations being what they are, it is as easy to find a wilderness-type experience in the American West as it is in South Africa. In fact, easier in my opinion. My opinion is that South Africa doesn't so much offer "Africa" as much as it offers the ability to kill a lot of animals fast "at a sitting" so-to-speak and in that only, to make a comparison, does it "beat" the US West.

"Wilderness" is not what South Africa has to sell. Hunters know, but must admit, that the relatively large-scale killing of game is what attracts them to south African game ranches and this is what has, curiously, saved the game as we all know. How many hunters have you ever heard of who travel all the way to South Africa to kill one head of game? It probably happens, but I personally have never met anyone who did. "Large bags", after all, are one of the main objectives of game ranching wherever it is practised. Many US hunters don't pay much attention to the contrived nature of game ranch hunts in South Africa and watching the various hunting shows on TV will almost never result in an education about the truth of the contrived nature game ranch management, but it is there. Game ranching is a highly sophisticated industry. Done right, it gives the impression of turning the hunter loose in "The Wild" to "experience Africa as Cornwallis Harris did" but the reality is of course, much different on many game-fenced ranches. No, on all.

I believe this German fellow is looking at what South Africa IS, and predicting what it will BE. I believe he sees the reality that the political situation in South Africa is probably headed downhill and/or the "overmanagement" and development of the game ranch system will lose its luster for many hunters, and at some point the ability to shoot a bunch of animals will outweigh WHERE they are shot, as the WHERE will be more trouble to get to and experience than its worth.

I bring this up because I believe that fellows like this guy are betting that South Africa slides into the abyss of political and economic mismanagement common to Africa, and that the hunting system and quality goes down the tubes also. Internally, some South African politicians have already criticized the game ranching industry for abuses involving canned lion hunts, etc. That they are addressing these issues indicates that there is still some life left in the concept of "fair chase", but even without canned lion hunts, is hunting impala on a 3,000 acre game-fenced ranch "fair chase"?

Add to this the threat of terrorism and political instability, ever-increasing complexity to importing trophies, and as the article states, there may in fact be a future for a fellow like this guy. Remember, NO game ranch operation happens overnight. It takes YEARS to develop same, and it is always a "work-in-progress" as the waters are tested as to which game is a money-maker and which isn't. Issues like fencing, etc, are management obstacles that merely await investment. They are not insurmountable. Take a run down to Lewiston Idaho and gander up at the cattle fencing on the mountains surrounding town and you will quickly shake off the notion that physical danger, hazard and difficulty are stop signs to fencing operations.

In the final analysis, maybe you fellows won't hunt Cape buffalo at a ranch in Texas, but the German guy is betting others will. I personally think he is dead right. I suspect that in 15 years, lots of others will!

I am old enough to remember when the rank and file of hunters spit on the ground at the notion of hunting nilgai, eland, auodad and ibex on "game farms" in Texas.

Cape buff will be just one more critter to add to the mix.

I'm just wondering when all that old, worn out Sante Fe railroad track is going to be ripped up and used to keep in the herds of elephant...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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mickey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: johncxr]
      #92878 - 29/12/07 09:48 AM

Quote:

Here is the website to what you are commenting on.

www.cxsafaris.com




John

Welcome to NE.com, Are you the John who runs this ranch?

If so perhaps you can give us an update or two from time to time?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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gator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: mickey]
      #92899 - 29/12/07 03:17 PM

I think this is really cool ... and i hope it grows.

Right now best place to hunt russian 650lb bores is Palo Alto CA,

I do like hunting in Africa, but the option of finding some game here is cool.


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: gator]
      #92913 - 29/12/07 11:30 PM

Maybe they should start hunting tigers at the local zoo's.
It would probably be just as exciting!

ABOUT AS EXCITING AS WATCHING PAINT DRY !

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #92923 - 30/12/07 02:04 AM

Quote:

Maybe they should start hunting tigers at the local zoo's.
It would probably be just as exciting!

ABOUT AS EXCITING AS WATCHING PAINT DRY !




Excepting the San Francisco Zoo, you might be right...

I find all these discussions quite interesting, as they uncover the multitude of views on what constitutes ethical and/or merely enjoyable hunting.

My personal standard is that as long as a sustainable yield of species is maintained and kill methods are efficient {preventing needless pain} and management methods do not involve suffering of the crop or spread of disease, the METHODS OF MANAGEMENT OR CULLING don't bother me though some might not interest me and I might not involve myself in them for merely personal preference reasons. That's the old farmer/rancher in me coming out I suppose. Critters and land are, to me, resources to be managed. The management METHODS are unimportant from a moral standpoint, but must be established using local standards, traditions and possibilities {available skills, equipment, etc}.

What is acceptable in one community is totally unacceptable or possibly even illegal in another.

For example, some might say that shooting game behind a fence is "unsporting". Others might say that other methods are unsporting; the use of bait, or high seats, or feeders, or scopes, or rifles or compound bows, or hounds or vehicles, or helicopters or beaters, or, cover scents, or shooting at night or...or...or...

There are methods that do not appeal to me, but I do not believe any are "wrong", unless wanton waste is involved. Having said that, even some forms of what might be seen by some as wanton waste is acceptable for some particular management reason. Witness my leaving of ground squirrels for the eagles and Marrakai's leaving of buff meat for the ants. Looking in on any "farming" operation and passing judgement is very difficult. Local populations must decide what should occur in their areas, but establishing universal rules for game management is very difficult to say the least.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #93015 - 31/12/07 07:21 AM

Quote:

ABOUT AS EXCITING AS WATCHING PAINT DRY !



I would have to agree - its not even as if opportunities to hunt the Cape Buff are declining - wilderness/communal land hunting availability is high and then there is Australia... What about putting more effort into restoring bison habitat rather than more exotics?


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #93025 - 31/12/07 07:45 AM

Quote:

What about putting more effort into restoring bison habitat rather than more exotics?




My personal sentiments exactly. The news report says the fellow is enamoured with the American West. Introduction of Cape Buffalo doesn't exactly appear to reflect that.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93031 - 31/12/07 08:01 AM

Enamoured with making a fortune from the American West more like...

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johncxr
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #93568 - 06/01/08 03:29 AM

First I would like to say, don't believe everything you read in the papers. They get only a quarter of the facts right.

My father, enamored by the American west, bought some of the land in the late seventies and the rest throughout the mid nineties.
My brother, enamored with animals of all kinds, started collecting exotic game in the late nineties simply because he loves to see the animals. In recent years, my family has come to the conclusion that the best way to keep the animals from overpopulating the ranch is not to sell them, but that it is more humane to have the animals hunted on the ranch than to ship them off to get hunted somewhere else in a cage or be killed in capture or transit.

The 5,000 acre pasture is large and rugged enough that one can drive through it on the main road, and not see more than fifteen animals out of 74(06) wildebeest- 36(06) black, 117(06) gemsbok, 9(07) cape buffalo, 85(06) addax, and so on. Nine times out of ten you won’t see the Cape buffalo from the roads.

The 5,000 acre pasture was merely the first phase of fence construction. We have now completed fencing in the boundary of the entire ranch of 36,000 acres. The eland, scimitar horned oryx, axis deer, and a few other species are already free to roam. Good luck finding them.

Mr. Mckenzie, I don’t mean to insult, but if you wish to see the paint dry for yourself, fill out the form on the “contact page” and maybe I’ll have you as my guest on the ranch for a couple of days, not to hunt but just to watch the paint dry, you will most likely sing another tune.

The Bruce ranch in the Glass Mountains near Marathon Texas raises bison.


I do thoroughly enjoy reading everyone’s opinions on this forum. Thank you


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: johncxr]
      #93576 - 06/01/08 04:47 AM

John, thanks for posting and for clarifying the bison/buffalo issue.

Folks, a 36,000 acre game ranch is no small potatoes on RSA or USA standards. I will be most fascinated to hear the progress of this plaas.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: johncxr]
      #93930 - 09/01/08 10:09 PM

Why the hell would I want to go to your game reserve in Texas to view African animals.
GET REAL
The last time I hunted buffalo was over an area bigger than Texas ,so stop trying to piss in my pocket.
I'm a hunter not a yuppie shooter.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93934 - 09/01/08 10:47 PM

Quote:

I will be most fascinated to hear the progress of this plaas.



I'll just be bemused!


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: johncxr]
      #93935 - 09/01/08 10:51 PM

Quote:

The Bruce ranch in the Glass Mountains near Marathon Texas raises bison.



Real hunters don't want their quarry "raised".
Well said Al


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #93951 - 10/01/08 01:23 AM

These discussions always seem to go downhill...

I have no dog in the fight so I can't get real excited about any of the arguments one way or the other. They are "to each his own" as far as I am concerned. I have a pretty pessimistic view of the future of most AFRICAN hunting, so I will say that I applaud efforts to maintain huntable populations of game, particularly in the face of what I believe is a catastrophe facing hunters in the next 25-30 years or so.

As for hunting in-general, here are a few questions to ponder:

Do ANY animals in the USA truly live a "wild" life, not managed or directly impacted by human endeavor? More specifically, how many big bucks got that way without direct human management to produce them?

Where would Australian hunting be without introduced species?

How much true "fair chase" hunting exists in Africa today, and where? Is there ANY true fair chase hunting left in South Africa?

What IS fair chase hunting? Can "fair chase" hunting ever involve a motorized vehicle?

Can BAITING be a legitimate method of fair chase hunting?

Are food plots a management tool of the legitimate sport hunter?

Should tree stands or Hochsitze be used?

Is game fencing acceptable?

Why would ANYONE go to South Africa to hunt if similar operations would be rejected in the USA?

I have heard, I think, just about every method of hunting condemned by some hunters {bait, hounds, night, stands, etc}, the hunting of some animal species condemned by other hunters {White Rhino, giraffe, etc} and the place of hunting condemned by others yet {Nilgai & Cape Buff in Texas, etc.} and the use of certain weapons condemned {bows, muzzleloaders with sabots, etc}.

Hunting is a very personal activity, and my opinions on what is acceptable are pretty broad and outlined in my previous posts. I might add that views change. For example, where I grew up, I used to hear some condemn the use of scopes as "unsporting". Bowhunting used to be roundly condemned. Each state in the USA has laws that have formed ethical constructs for their populations over the years, so much so that moving from one state to another, or hunting in various states, requires much attention to the details of what are legal and acceptable methods. I might add also that I have heard some hunters with African experience laugh at the concept of hunting water buffalo in Australia, calling them "unworthy" of true sportsman, ditto they say for much Australian game.

Ask 10 hunters what is acceptable hunting and you'll get 10 different answers and probably a fight along the way, too!!!

But above are some questions for discussion...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (10/01/08 01:34 AM)


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93977 - 10/01/08 11:21 AM

Where would Australian hunting be without introduced species?

Where indeed would Australia be with out introduced feral animals?
There are eradication programs in place for every introduced species into Australia except for maybe the Banteng cattle.

Pigs,buffalo,goats,donkey,camel,horses are all culled from choppers because of the massive damage they do to the enviroment.
This does not include rabbit,fox and feral cat and dog which also have eradication programs in place because of the catastropic damage done by these animals to the Australian enviroment.

Do we need these introduced animals ?

NO BLOODY WAY

Some people cant see beyond the end of there nose.
so be sure of your facts.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93978 - 10/01/08 11:32 AM

As to the rest of your questions,your own conscience will dictate what is true hunting and what is just plain shooting.

Why not get pictures of the animals you want to shoot ,put a bullet hole in them ,then hang them up on your trophy wall.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #93988 - 10/01/08 01:12 PM

Quote:

As to the rest of your questions,your own conscience will dictate what is true hunting and what is just plain shooting.




This is exactly the point of my whole post. I am NOT condemning any Australian, German, Texan, South African or whatever hunting.

And what facts do I need to ask a question?

Honestly, this forum is getting so chockfull of whiners, criers, eyerubbers and fussers it is becoming difficult to have any sort of interactive and constructive discussion about almost any topic without somebody having a complete diaper-filling meltdown.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Nakihunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93991 - 10/01/08 01:51 PM

9.3 - That is the result of globalization & the internet! One person's whinge is another's querry. One's humour is another's insult ....and so on.

I see the issue being extended beyond the contex - so perceptions get mixed up as well.

Cape buffalo or any exhotic hunting in the US is quite a different context to hunting ferrals in Australia or NZ (unless they are all behind fences). Behind the wire is the context & not the fact that the animal is introduced. Free range is the context & not raised / released. The axis deer, Ibex, Gemsbok or Audad in the US have become free range & would be in a similar context to Aussie buffalo or pigs.

I'd like to hunt pigs & buffalo in Oz. But I will not consider paying for an exhotic hunt in the US. Some of the free range ferrals like Axis, Ibex, Aoudad, Gemsbok etc. in public land might be ok. My reason is that Oz offers these animals as the major hunting experience. US hunting expereinces are for Elk, deer, bear, sheep etc.

Thant is MHO.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94008 - 11/01/08 12:11 AM

9.3x57,go back and read whatyou have written.
You will answer your own question.

Disposable diapers are available at most supermarkets if you require them.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #94013 - 11/01/08 03:36 AM

Nobody is saying {least of all me} that exotic hunting in Australia is the same thing as Cape buffalo hunting in Zimbabwe or Texas.

What I am saying is that many hunters disagree about what types of hunting are ethical, acceptable, sporting or fair chase, and that arguments arise constantly among hunters due to differences in opinion about what hunting methods should be allowed both for scoring purposes, for law, etc. This post from start to finish highlights that reality.

Read my posts and you will see that as far as I am concerned, I don't care much about what methods are used, as I have hunted in many different places with many different "codes" of what is acceptable and for the most part I am happy to "do as the Romans do" when it comes to hunting methods.

Though many hunters might not want to pay to hunt Cape Buffalo in Texas, I predict that if this fellow can get a 35,000 acre game ranch up and running and stock it with CB, he will find plenty of hunters to shoot them and they will be willing to pay a lot of money to do it. He'll have to figure out if they will pay enough to make it profitable and sustainable.

Whether I or Alan or anybody else finds that acceptable isn't my point. I am NOT picking a fight with Alan or even taking issue with Alan because he doesn't like the idea. I suspect right now, and certainly on this Forum, he is in the majority. That is fine by me. Frankly, at this time in history, I don't think I'd pay big bucks to shoot a CB in Texas, either!

EVERY TYPE OF HUNTING is, has been and will be condemned by some hunters who don't like some aspect of it. Some hate bow hunting, some hate hound hunting, some hate Hochsitze, some hate baiting, some hate game fenced operations. So what. Others like each management method quite well and are prepared to pay to hunt in such ways.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Nakihunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94027 - 11/01/08 09:21 AM

Hey Alan, I got some diapers yesterday! My lab likes them!






--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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Bramble
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: Nakihunter]
      #94029 - 11/01/08 11:37 AM

OOOOH I do like a fit bitch in black underwear.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: Nakihunter]
      #94034 - 11/01/08 12:46 PM

It looks more like a chastity belt to me.

Dont be so mean,let the girl have some fun !

Heck I will willingly take a bitch pup if they are pure lab.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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Nakihunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #94045 - 11/01/08 02:58 PM

Chicka used to be a show dog & some of her kennel mates have become good hunters even on Sika deer. Chicka is now a full time pet at the age of 3.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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xausa
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94091 - 12/01/08 06:28 AM

"Do ANY animals in the USA truly live a "wild" life, not managed or directly impacted by human endeavor? More specifically, how many big bucks got that way without direct human management to produce them?"

I am now living in the same county I grew up in. Until is was 18, I had never seen a white tail deer "in the wild". Conversely, I had never seen a coyote outside a zoo. Due to the efforts of the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, deer were reintroduced into our area, as were later wild turkey. Presently, the deer population of Henry County is (conservatively) estimated at 20,000 and I am personally aware of a turkey population of close to 100 on my 450 acres. Coyotes, which were unknown east of the Mississippi in my boyhood, have become ubiquitous now in my area, taking the place of the related red wolves, which were the original predators here.

The crop damage caused by these "reintroduced" creatures is considerable, and the hunting rules have been relaxed to the point that the deer season starts, in various forms (archery, muzzleloading, centerfire rifle) from September 22, and ends on January 6, with a bag limit of 3 PER DAY, with the proviso that only 3 antlered deer can be taken per season. The annual "harvest" in my county alone is in the vicinity of 6000 per year, not counting the road kills and the ones killed by farmers with special permits to minimize crop damage.

My county's area is 562 square miles, which translates to 359,680 acres or 143,872 hektars. The human population is 31,115, as of 2000 and the deer population 20,000, which translates to 56 humans and 35 deer per square mile, or one deer per 18 acres (7.2 hektars).

I sometimes ponder what the original aboriginal inhabitants of this area would have thought of our deer population and hunting methods. The concept of "fair chase" was certainly not one they would have understood, I believe. Deer were routinely shot out of blinds located near springs and salt licks, and because of their lack of exposure to man, may have been less shy than their modern counterparts. I am satisfied the pre-Columbian human population density was vastly lower than at the present, but whether the deep population was lesser, greater, or the same is a subject of speculation.

"What IS fair chase hunting? Can "fair chase" hunting ever involve a motorized vehicle?"

As long as a motor vehicle is only used as transportation and not as a means to approach an animal, I see no reason why it can't be a part of "fair chase".

"Can BAITING be a legitimate method of fair chase hunting?" If, by "baiting" you mean shooting from a blind close to a bait, my only experience with that method is leopard hunting, and frankly, I know of no other method we could have used. In my case, the blind was located about 80 yards from the bait, which was suspended in a tree, and the "fair chase" feature of the hunt consisted in the knowledge that if I only wounded the leopard, he would fall into thick undergrowth under the tree and that would leave the unpleasant task of following him up in rapidly diminishing daylight. As it turned out, the shot hit him in the spine, and he collapsed on the limb. The other shot, some fraction of an inch away, was unnecessary.


"Are food plots a management tool of the legitimate sport hunter?" I use food plots to minimize crop damage, and place them in areas too steep or inaccessable to be otherwise cultivated. I don't shoot over them, although one of my favorite hunting spots is about 250 yards away from one, with an open hay field in between. If I were to actually shoot a deer in the food plot, the difficulty posed by the distance would add an element of legitimacy.

Should tree stands or Hochsitze be used? My friends in Germany are pretty much compelled to use Hochsitze hunting wild boar by moonlight, a practice legitimized by the burgeoning Wildschwein population and the amount of crop damage they cause. In my area, most serious and fatal hunting accidents are connected with tree stands and hunters falling from them. I prefer to stay on the ground for that reason and because I like to think that the deer have more of an equal chance with me on the ground.

In general, my idea of "fair chase" has to do with being able to take advantage of an unexpected opportunity, and hunting from a tree stand is more of a staged event. Too many "wildlife" TV programs in our area show footage of a hunter breathlessly waiting in his tree stand for the trophy buck to wander close enough to shoot from a rest, using a scope too powerful to be used in any other way. Others may call this hunting, I call it "harvesting", which is the term used by the Wildlife Resources Agency to describe the annual deer kill.

"Is game fencing acceptable?" My only expeerience with "game fencing" was a fence used to keep predators and grazers out of property used for raising livestock. This was only partially successful. I recall driving past a nine foot game fence topped by barbed wire, and seeing tufts of wool festooning the barbs, where a leopard had scaled the fence, killed a full grown sheep, carried it back across the fence and lodged it high in the branches of a tree some distance away. My appreciation for the strength of a loepard grew accordingly.

In general, I have no objection to a lot of "hunting" methods I would not choose to use myself, at least in my area, since the main object is to keep the population in check. I prefer to keep my own hunting techniques on a more even footing with the animal being hunted.


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Charles
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94102 - 12/01/08 11:23 AM

Whatever happened to live and let live???

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: xausa]
      #94123 - 12/01/08 03:30 PM

Xausa,a very well written and documented opinion of one mans hunting ethics and experience.
Well done.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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Shackleton
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #94129 - 12/01/08 06:01 PM


I'm not a fan of the whole idea of hunting "transplanted" animals, even in a fair chase hunt, but not because of ethical reasons. For me the whole attraction of shooting a Cape buffalo or eland is the idea of seeing Africa in the process. If someone else wants to shoot one in Texas it's their money, and their trip. I'm not going to ruin it for them. On the other hand, the meat is as much of a trophy to me as the head, and it would be somewhat easier to bring meat home to Iowa from Texas than from Africa. It sounds like this ranch has enough land for the game to have(at worst)a decent chance of getting away. As long as the animal has a chance, in my book it's still hunting and not simply killing. Just because I don't like the hunt doesn't mean I'm going to stop someone who does. Texas has some native game I'd like to hunt so maybe I'll end up there at some point, but if I ever shoot African big game it'll be in Africa.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: Shackleton]
      #94138 - 13/01/08 01:14 AM

Xausa:

Thanks for a well thoughtout response, and that is EXACTLY the type of response I was hoping for when I sort-of rhetorically posted the questions. Shackleton, ditto.

My whole point in asking the questions was, as you grasped very well, to prompt discussion of hunting methods and preferences, which of course vary from locale to locale with some methods, e.g. baiting, being legal and/or necessary in one place on one species and unacceptable/illegal with another. Having said that, sometimes the method may be necessary but NOT legal, as in hunting cougar where some states have banned the use of hounds though that is essentially the only effective method to kill them.

We all have our personal tastes, to be sure. For example, my 18-year-old son is adamant about NOT building any Hochsitze on our place here and he doesn't even like the concept of using treestands. He watches the hunting shows and is basically disgusted with "box hunting" for deer, though he grudgingly admits the method might be OK in various places in Europe for pig, for example. He is not too keen on a friend's shooting Red Stag over bait from a box in Lithuania every September, however. To each his own. So far, no Hochsitze on the ranch here!!

I personally believe that the general issue of agreement/disagreement as to methods of hunting and game management will be one of the most important issues for hunters over the next quarter century, at least here in the States, as these issues creep into the general political process. Many States have seen political "initiatives" whereby certain methods are condemned by one group and then an attempt is made to ban them which de facto pits hunter against hunter whether hunters want to enter the fray or not. It is true that we must police our own, and strive for some concept of "fair chase" that will pass political muster and protect our sport, but as Xausa has so well put, what is acceptable or even necessary in one area might be unacceptable in another.



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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xausa
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94141 - 13/01/08 03:02 AM

9ThreeXFifty7

Thanks for your kind remarks.

One factor I meant to mention was the time factor. I am in the happy situation of being able to wake up in the morning during deer season and deciding whether to get up and go out, or to roll over and catch another forty winks. If I go out and see nothing, I consider it "paying my dues" for the next time, when I stumble into something immediately. Others not so fortunate, have to cram their hunting experience into a certain time frame, and justify their less than what I consider "fair chase" methods by a "now or never" attitude.

Professional hunting guides in this country and elsewhere justify their methods (blinds at waterholes, hunting lion over bait) on the same basis. They have a limited time to produce results and the ends justify the means.

In Germany, as I understand it, hunters in their leased hunting areas have customized bag limits based on an actual census of the animals in the area, which are very specific as to the type of animal which can be taken, even to the size of the antlers. This means that the hunter must be very cautious about identifying what he is shooting at before he shoots. Under those circumstances, the use of "Hochsitze" is virtually unavoidable.

Again, everyone has his own idea of what a real "hunting experience" is, and many of those would not be acceptable to me, but in the long run, if such hunting is sustainable and does not threaten the survival of the hunted animal, it is essentially no business of mine how it is conducted.

At the opposite end of the spectrum from what I consider "fair chase" was the experience of a "hunter" who shall remain nameless, who enjoyed a certain amount of publicity from a local newspaper which published a color spread of his trophy room. On display was a pair of elephant tusks, which upon closer examination turned to be made of fiberglass. Also on display was a full body mount of a polar bear, standing upright in a threatening pose.

It turned out the polar bear had been bagged in East Tennessee, where it had been the property of a private zoo. When the intrepid hunter showed up to claim his "trophy", the owner asked if he would like to have it released from the cage before he shot it, to which the shooter allegedly replied, "No, it might hurt me!" Such is the stuff of legends.

To me, the memory of the hunting experience is the important thing. The photographs and mounted heads on the wall are just mnemonic devices, not ends in themselves. Some obviously disagree.


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Anonymous
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: bulldog563]
      #94148 - 13/01/08 05:52 AM

What a pathetic thing to do, what's next transplanted Elephant hunts on the Texas pan handle?

I must say, I hate zoo's as well, it's more harm than good imo. If you want to help animals, help them in there natural habitat, period.

The human race is really disappointing as a whole.


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Dave_Hall
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: ]
      #94150 - 13/01/08 06:33 AM

I couldn't wait to see the African animals at the Pittsburg zoo.I saw the animals,but it sure as Hell wasn't there natural habitat.When we got to hear the big male Lion roar I was thinking to myself it about the only thing he got left.

--------------------
The Great .458
45-90 WCF
45-120 Sharps
450 Nitro Express
2011 Ruger SP-101 4.2" 357 MAG.


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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94164 - 13/01/08 08:47 AM

I would like to think that the addition of a pride of lions on that 30 thou acres would make it far more interesting.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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9.3x57
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Re: Cape Buffalo Hunting in TX [Re: gryphon]
      #94171 - 13/01/08 10:38 AM

Quote:

I would like to think that the addition of a pride of lions on that 30 thou acres would make it far more interesting.




That's for sure!

The only lion hunts I've ever heard of in the USA were of the completely "canned" variety. Game departments among other interests take a dim view of the introduction of predators.

Heck, if they want predators, we are awash in them up here. I'd love to see them clean us out of wolves and cougar, though they can leave a few bear. They are tasty!!

Cape buffalo and wolves. That would be an interesting fight...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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johncxr
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Loc: Alpine, Texas, USA
Record Size Mountain Lion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #95057 - 24/01/08 05:29 AM

You wan't lions. How about this 160 LBS lion.

[image]http://www.cxsafaris.com/lion.html[/image]


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500Nitro
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Re: Record Size Mountain Lion [Re: johncxr]
      #95058 - 24/01/08 05:47 AM


deleted

Edited by 500Nitro (24/01/08 05:49 AM)


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