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larcher
.416 member


Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France
Why an agent when booking a hunt
      #71792 - 18/02/07 02:01 AM

Reading Double Trouble response on this forum I found another people doubting that an agent may be necessary.

Personnally I am always contracting with the PH-Outfitter and shunting any agent. But nothing obnoxious intented ; in France there are few booking agents and plenty of PHs and outfitters advertising and accepting to proceed all the booking fuss.

Are there here other people acting this way?

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: larcher]
      #71878 - 19/02/07 03:16 AM

As you, I generally see no need for an agent. I used one on a couple of hunts to begin with, but find that most agents rarely do much of anything besides booking the flights flights for you. And if things go south, it has been shown time and time again that many (the majority?) of agents don't, or are not able to, solve many problems.

Some say that agents get you cheaper airfare. But then they take in 15% (more or less) or the hunt cost. I've been able to get just as cheap airfare without an agent anyway, and can demand to get the "agent fee" knocked off the price of the hunt. Depending on the total cost of the hunt, 15% or so less can equal the airfare and more!

Personally, I think the best way to do things is to have contact directly with the outfitter and PH. Not just via fax or e-mail, but on the phone too. A few calls doesn't cost much when looking at the total cost of a hunting safari, and can give you a more accurate impression of the people you are dealing with.

Erik

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
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Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: EricD]
      #71912 - 19/02/07 02:19 PM



I think that if a guy does his due diligence and it's a standard fare African hunt, then an agent is not necessary. However, for some of the less-travelled countries, an agent might be a good idea. For example, I am not sure I would want to deal directly with (i.e., get ripped off by) a Chinese government-owned hunting company for a Tibetan gazelle hunt.

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: 500grains]
      #71929 - 19/02/07 04:32 PM

A good agent can make life easier. Especially when it comes to $'s. A good, trustworthy, reliable agent can make carrying a load of cash for trophy fees and other odds and ends like airfare a non issue. Also a good agent will give you accurate scoop on your hopes and plan accordingly.

But you will need to do your research on the agent. If you are inclined to use an agent I would highly recomend Keith Atcheson of Atcheson and Sons in Butte Montana.

JPK

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RayRay
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Reged: 16/02/07
Posts: 10
Loc: Arkansas Line
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: JPK]
      #71965 - 20/02/07 05:32 AM

What I find most tempting about using the likes of Atcheson and sons is the almightydollar is kept right here in the US until the hunt is over. Actually they call themselves hunting consultants as opposed to agents supposedly because they don't represent one company but instead many different outfitters. I'm just not comfortable sending that much moolah over to third world countries.

--------------------
The chief cause for failure is trading what you want most for what you want in the moment.

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: RayRay]
      #71977 - 20/02/07 06:58 AM

FWIW, many of the more serious and/or well known outfitters and PHs in Africa have US bank accounts. So if you do your research, and find one you deem trustworthy, paying them part (or all) of the trophy fees etc beforehand is possible. But again, this is only if you are sure they are 100% trustworthy. Just like you'd need with a US based agent/hunting consultant.

On the otherhand, traveller checks are always a safe option to use, although it can be a hassle signing all of them when you finally have to pay. One solution is to split it 50/50, with the first half being paid beforehand, and the rest when you are done.

All in all, I think using TCs is the safest way to deal with money while travelling, and so far the only country that they could not be used in that I have spent time in is Sudan. As far as I know, all the usual hunting destinations (countries) accept travellers checks.

Erik

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: EricD]
      #71987 - 20/02/07 08:55 AM

If you attend the SCI show you can meet any number of outfitters and often times the PH that you will be hunting with.

The obvious advantage of seeing all the outfitters in one location is being able to shop the prices from booth to booth. The other upside is that you get a "feel" for who your are dealing with face to face. I would think that for the kind of money that many of these safaris cost, it would be worth the trip to Reno or a comparable show to do your due dillegence.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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SAHUNT
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Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #72276 - 23/02/07 12:02 AM

I prefer to deal directly with the clients. The more we can corespond the better. It gives me a better picture of his expectations and he hnows exactly what I can offer. It is good to have some knowledge of each other before the arrival and both feel as if they know each other. Money related questions can be sorted out and a amicable agreement can be reached.

It is not a matter that I do not trust agents, but it cuts out an extra level of communication and the possibility that the wrong information may reach the destiny

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: SAHUNT]
      #72303 - 23/02/07 05:32 AM

Well I am an agent and I can tell you I have saved several folks a lot of money on mistakes they would have made and paid dearly for without the FREE help of an agent.

Anyone I book or who contacts me for information has direct access to my outfitters.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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SAHUNT
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Reged: 27/12/04
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Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: AspenHill]
      #72309 - 23/02/07 07:02 AM

Ann, the likes of you are very few. If you were my agent I would have no second thaught. Speaking out of an outfitters mouth, it is very difficult to find a reliable agent. I heard lots about bad experiences and I had personal dealing with so called agents, that was just looking for a cheap hunt.

I do agree that a good agent can save his clients a lot of trouble and can ensure that the outfitter gets a good flow of bussiness.

I am not against agants, maybe someday I will find a reliable agent to represrent me.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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AspenHill
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Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: SAHUNT]
      #72338 - 23/02/07 01:35 PM

Jaco,

When clients are reliable I always say! The business is very tough with world wide terrorism, poor economies, gun laws, CITES, etc. They take a big bite out of business and pleasure as it reduces a persons interest in travel.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: SAHUNT]
      #72346 - 23/02/07 03:16 PM

Quote:

Ann, the likes of you are very few. If you were my agent I would have no second thaught. Speaking out of an outfitters mouth, it is very difficult to find a reliable agent. I heard lots about bad experiences and I had personal dealing with so called agents, that was just looking for a cheap hunt.

I do agree that a good agent can save his clients a lot of trouble and can ensure that the outfitter gets a good flow of bussiness.

I am not against agants, maybe someday I will find a reliable agent to represrent me.



Jaco, if you're looking for a reliable agent, send Ann an email. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

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BrnBear
.224 member


Reged: 07/12/04
Posts: 19
Loc: USA
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #72861 - 01/03/07 05:34 PM

Ann:
Please don't take this wrong. I think your one of the good "GUYS!"
You say, if I book with you it's FREE. My question is, are you doing this for fun? If not, who pays your salary?
My thoughts are, as the hunter, I pay your salary.
If the Outfitter/owner/PH, whatever, has an animal for sale, and he figures it is worth $1000, he contacts you and says, I have a kudu for $1000. I don't think you will spend your time and money to sell me the hunt for $1000? You have to add a percentage to the price, so you can make your money. So, the animal cost me $1000 plus your commission fee.
Correct?
If so, then your services are not free. As the hunter, I pay.
Of course I know the answer. You buy wholesale and sell retail. Nothing wrong with that. I just want to make it clear that your services are not FREE.

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: BrnBear]
      #72869 - 01/03/07 09:20 PM

We rarely use agents as most either want too much money, (if you build commission into the price, you're expensive, if you don't then you give away a large part of your profit) also, many don't know the facts about the area they're trying to sell or just make promises that can't be kept or both. There are some very good agents out there but for every one that knows what they're doing and is honest etc there are about 10 that are worse than useless....... I SHOULD SAY AT THIS POINT THAT MY COMMENTS DO NOT REFER TO ANY FORUM MEMBERS!

An example of how useless they can be is a UK agent who I didn't know from a bar of soap, contacted me a while ago and asked what commission I paid as he had some clients who he had told could hunt with us in RSA for Thompson's and Grant's gazelles...... which only occur in East Africa. - Needless to say, we declined to do business with him. The problem is that all anyone needs to become an agent selling African hunting is a website and the ability to spell the word Africa. It's not at all uncommon for someone to hunt Africa once and then become a so called agent. How can such a person have a knowledge of weather patterns, game area distinctions etc etc etc. - Those type of people are nothing more than a hinderance at best and a bloody danger at worst........ It's especially worrying that there is no way for the client to know whether the company and website etc have been in existance for a week or a decade! - Or to know how much experience the 'agent' has had of Africa and it's hunting etc.

It's the outfitter who pays the agent by way of a commission - usually around 10% - 15% so it's the outfitter who loses out. Whilst it's possible for the agent to add a percentage, it's not usual.......

All that said, if an outfitter can find a good, honest, knowledgeable agent who doesn't BS the prospective client and is willing to work for a reasonable percentage, he or she can bring in a lot of business and be worth their weight in gold...... Now all I need to do is find one that meets that criteria and isn't already representing anyone in the countries I operate in! Maybe the way to go would be to offer the agent a percentage that increases with the amount of clients sent........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (03/03/07 07:03 AM)

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mudbug
.275 member


Reged: 08/12/03
Posts: 51
Loc: U.S.A/Wyo.,Ak.&La./H.K.&P.R.C.
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: BrnBear]
      #73929 - 15/03/07 02:33 PM

Quote:

Ann:
Please don't take this wrong. I think your one of the good "GUYS!"
You say, if I book with you it's FREE. My question is, are you doing this for fun? If not, who pays your salary?
My thoughts are, as the hunter, I pay your salary.
If the Outfitter/owner/PH, whatever, has an animal for sale, and he figures it is worth $1000, he contacts you and says, I have a kudu for $1000. I don't think you will spend your time and money to sell me the hunt for $1000? You have to add a percentage to the price, so you can make your money. So, the animal cost me $1000 plus your commission fee.
Correct?
If so, then your services are not free. As the hunter, I pay.
Of course I know the answer. You buy wholesale and sell retail. Nothing wrong with that. I just want to make it clear that your services are not FREE.



Well said. This is not about love, I think. Business is business as I recall.

Now, where did she go? Ann? Comments on the above? Probably not.

Mudbug

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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: mudbug]
      #73945 - 15/03/07 10:51 PM

Nope, I don't add to the advertised price.

The outfitter does pay, but he/she set their prices. No one I currently book for has me add anything to their published prices.

Most of the time I just go hunting with my outfitters and what ever I have earned comes off my own hunt. No one has ever given me a free hunt. I can tell you if you think what I do is easy I can assure you the amount of time I spend with potential clients including phone calls, postage, printer ink, website, advertising costs, ect, etc, etc.... never really makes up for the commission I earned for the few who ever actually book.

Every year I get many of the same people requesting information, time, etc and they never book. If an outfitter feels an agent isn't doing much they should rethink that as well because I figure I am saving them quite a lot of time doing the "leg work" so-to-speak in sending them a committed hunter. Agents are not a necessary evil, an outfitter can certainly carry on with out one but then they need to spend the office time, hire office help, etc.

I don't book for scads of outfits, just a select few that are unique in their own way because each hunter is also different. My goal is to pair them up with an outfit that will suit the client's needs, not mine and not the outfitter. The client is the one who needs to be happy with how they are spending their hard earned money.

It kind of confounds me why some folks look badly or with disdain over what an agent does. There is not a single person/profession out there who isn't selling something. A lot will give their negative opinion but I am betting they don't follow through with all of their life such as buying direct from a farmer instead of going to the local market, or raising their own crops/meat (as an example!).

Not only do I work a full time job busting bad guys, I book hunts; I also farm, I raise and sell organic eggs and am expanding this spring into more production that will include specialty items such as saffron and ginseng. Of course I am looking to SELL my products too!

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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butchloc
.300 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 230
Loc: faribault mn
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: AspenHill]
      #73964 - 16/03/07 05:14 AM

i've hunted both on my own and thru agents. I've had bad and good experiences both ways. Over the years i've booked many times the hunts by myself than i did thru agents, but today i find myself using them more and more. Time is a fleeting thing, and I find that using a trusted (TRUSTED) agent saves me much time. Having hunting accross the world for 40 some odd year, i find that the game i seek is now uncommon in uncommon places. Seeking out good people in good locations is a time consuming task. Here ia good agent is most valuable. The keep saying trusted and good. I've had some terrible experiences with bad agents too. Hence the only way i book a hunt, whether through an agent or by myself, is to know some people who have gone down that road before me. For example, if I want to go mule deer hunting, my idea of a deer is one scoring at least 170+ points. Someone else may think of it as a 4 legged woodland creature. It is important that your communications with whoever is on the same level. Organizations such as SCI, FNAWS etc. are invaluable for all concerned, in that they can meet on common ground. If the hunter has no knowledge of details, places etc. then a good agent is invaluable. If he know what he's doing, where to go, what to do etc. then they are of little use

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
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Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: AspenHill]
      #74001 - 16/03/07 12:33 PM

Quote:

Nope, I don't add to the advertised price.

The outfitter does pay, but he/she set their prices. No one I currently book for has me add anything to their published prices.

Most of the time I just go hunting with my outfitters and what ever I have earned comes off my own hunt. No one has ever given me a free hunt. I can tell you if you think what I do is easy I can assure you the amount of time I spend with potential clients including phone calls, postage, printer ink, website, advertising costs, ect, etc, etc.... never really makes up for the commission I earned for the few who ever actually book.

Every year I get many of the same people requesting information, time, etc and they never book. If an outfitter feels an agent isn't doing much they should rethink that as well because I figure I am saving them quite a lot of time doing the "leg work" so-to-speak in sending them a committed hunter. Agents are not a necessary evil, an outfitter can certainly carry on with out one but then they need to spend the office time, hire office help, etc.

I don't book for scads of outfits, just a select few that are unique in their own way because each hunter is also different. My goal is to pair them up with an outfit that will suit the client's needs, not mine and not the outfitter. The client is the one who needs to be happy with how they are spending their hard earned money.

It kind of confounds me why some folks look badly or with disdain over what an agent does. There is not a single person/profession out there who isn't selling something. A lot will give their negative opinion but I am betting they don't follow through with all of their life such as buying direct from a farmer instead of going to the local market, or raising their own crops/meat (as an example!).

Not only do I work a full time job busting bad guys, I book hunts; I also farm, I raise and sell organic eggs and am expanding this spring into more production that will include specialty items such as saffron and ginseng. Of course I am looking to SELL my products too!



Ann, thanks for spelling it all out. Hopefully, this will satisfy some of the nay sayers. I, for one, believe that a good booking agent is invaluable.

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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
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Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #74025 - 16/03/07 11:43 PM

Well all I can say is if you don't want to hunt come buy some eggs!

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Loc: South Africa
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: AspenHill]
      #74113 - 18/03/07 07:31 AM

Without meaning to cause offence to anyone...... buuut,

I sometimes fail to understand why some hunters feel they should get something for nothing. I'm not a fan of the 'agent system' in general but why shouldn't clients have a choice of booking with an agent or booking direct. Esp, if it doesn't cost them any more money. - If anyone should complain, it's the poor bloody safari companies who have to pay a far too high a commission. . I can't think of a single business, industry or profession (except perhaps the church) where commissions aren't considered perfectly legitimate.

Surely it all comes down to the fact that when you buy your shopping in a supermarket or your gas in a filling station or your medical treatment from a doctor, you either accept the price or go elsewhere - but you don't bleat at the seller and hope they'll drop the price ...... so why do it with a safari...... If you can't stand the heat, stay out the kitchen!

Ann, buy eggs from you? - not at your prices, you gotta be yolking!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (18/03/07 07:32 AM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: shakari]
      #74114 - 18/03/07 07:41 AM


shakari

"Surely it all comes down to the fact that when you buy your shopping in a supermarket or your gas in a filling station or your medical treatment from a doctor, you either accept the price or go elsewhere - but you don't bleat at the seller and hope they'll drop the price ...... so why do it with a safari...... If you can't stand the heat, stay out the kitchen!"

I made the same point on another forum a week or so ago.
They "shop around" for the best price on a gun or whatever where the going margin is 5 - 10% yet they go to the supermarket or one of the Outdoor Camping places here where they are happy to buy the product with a 200 - 400% mark up !

And the special "22 1/2% OFF" - they are thinking they get a good deal ! The price is just artificially inflated outside of these times !

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: 500Nitro]
      #74115 - 18/03/07 08:02 AM

My point exactly and it's especially daft when you think that booking with a more experienced company can actually make the difference between life and death etc etc. Yet some potential clients try to negotiate a deal so they can bring observers etc FOC or get the use of a US$12000 rifle (which they often then mistreat) for nothing...... It's not a game I play and if I want or can afford to give someone a discount, I'll offer it, but I surely won't negotiate. - Iin all fairness I have to say, I adopt the same policy with agents....... We don't often use agents but on the odd occasioon we do, I'll only offer them what I think I can afford and I'm certainly not prepared or can afford to give them the lion's share of the profit....

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: shakari]
      #74128 - 18/03/07 03:28 PM

Steve Shakari,

Quote:

We don't often use agents...



I thought you were an agent? Surely you are not licensed in Botswana, South Africa, Mozambique and Tanzania and personally serving as the PH in all of those locations??

Quote:

I sometimes fail to understand why some hunters feel they should get something for nothing.



I agree with this, but it also surprises me when a safari company (or agent portending to be a safari company) wants to get something for nothing. For example, charging $200 per day for an observer who consumes $10 worth of food per day.

However, these online discussions are useful because it allows us to see who is accomodating and who is just plain surly.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: 500grains]
      #74131 - 18/03/07 04:02 PM

I'm currently licenced in RSA & Tanzania. Used to have a Moz licence but haven't renewed it for a few years as I dislike the place and so send another PH who works for us. Renewing is only a matter of paying the Govt fee though. As for Botswana, we have a resident PH who works for us there, but I do on ocaasaion cover hunt there.

An agent on the other hand, just sells the hunt for a third party and takes a commission. We don't do that.......

I'd say another advantage of these discussions is that they allow people to work out who walks the walk and talks the talk and who just talks the talk.......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (18/03/07 04:46 PM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
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Re: Why an agent when booking a hunt [Re: shakari]
      #74132 - 18/03/07 04:59 PM

Yes indeed. We also learn who sells scam hunts (concessions with no game!), and who is too fat to actually work as a PH but does so anyway.

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