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I am right now re-reading the book Ndlovu of Rich Harland. Rich was in plenty of cullings and provide lots of advises.
Of course, no double rifle, because they are to slow to reload et the more ammos in the rifles the better.
Calibers : he insist on calibers from 416 and larger. On a practical point of view, 416 Rigby and 458 WM or 458 Lott. 505 Gibs is perfect but few rifles offer this caliber.

Barrel lenght : 28 inch too long, 20 inch perfect balance and handling in jesse.

Among the makers :

Weatherby : out, the bullets are way too fast and very prone to deflect or explode without penetrating.

Remington 700, lots of jammings and very tricky to reload, too slow when in action

Wincherster M70 : better with controlled feed instead of push-feed. The safety catch is on the wrong side, dangerous in action.

Ruger M77, OK but bedding required. Troubles with the 416 Rigby , it needs a stonger magazine spring.

Browning A Bold : Good, but trouble with closing the floor plate, the safety is excellent.

BRNO ZKK62 excellent

CZ : Good but safety the wrong way and wrong side. The 458 WM softs feed badly, too short for the large receiver, opt for the 44578 Lott. Bedding recommended.

Mannlicher Schoenauer : the very best, no discussion
approved by Don Heath.

BSA : top notch if pre 1967 with the serial number prefixed by 9C.

FN : top notch

English, careful : Westley Richards made “native” rifles very poor built on Mauser action. Same with Cogswell and Harrison with P14 actions.

Mauser : The rare Mauser magnum and Brevex are impossible to find.
Mauser Standard receiver :OK with 404 and 9.3x62. Other calibers are customization where the worst more than the best might occur.

Customized rifles : stay clear.


Reading that I wonder why the Sako insn’t tried.
I suppose that out of courtesy, Rich doesn’t mention Blaser, Sauer, Merkel, Heym……..

Finally some commentaries :
Barie Duckworth : "Had I used a double I'll be a deadman" (during ele culling)
Ivan Carter : " Had I used a repeater, I'll be dead" stopping a charging lion.

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Mr Harland wrote the book in 2001. He culled over 1200 elephants on control, best, Mike

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I am right now re-reading the book Ndlovu of Rich Harland. Rich was in plenty of cullings and provide lots of advises.
Of course, no double rifle, because they are to slow to reload et the more ammos in the rifles the better.
Calibers : he insist on calibers from 416 and larger. On a practical point of view, 416 Rigby and 458 WM or 458 Lott. 505 Gibs is perfect but few rifles offer this caliber.

Barrel lenght : 28 inch too long, 20 inch perfect balance and handling in jesse.

Among the makers :

Weatherby : out, the bullets are way too fast and very prone to deflect or explode without penetrating.

Remington 700, lots of jammings and very tricky to reload, too slow when in action

Wincherster M70 : better with controlled feed instead of push-feed. The safety catch is on the wrong side, dangerous in action.

Ruger M77, OK but bedding required. Troubles with the 416 Rigby , it needs a stonger magazine spring.

Browning A Bold : Good, but trouble with closing the floor plate, the safety is excellent.

BRNO ZKK62 excellent

CZ : Good but safety the wrong way and wrong side. The 458 WM softs feed badly, too short for the large receiver, opt for the 44578 Lott. Bedding recommended.

Mannlicher Schoenauer : the very best, no discussion
approved by Don Heath.

BSA : top notch if pre 1967 with the serial number prefixed by 9C.

FN : top notch

English, careful : Westley Richards made “native” rifles very poor built on Mauser action. Same with Cogswell and Harrison with P14 actions.

Mauser : The rare Mauser magnum and Brevex are impossible to find.
Mauser Standard receiver :OK with 404 and 9.3x62. Other calibers are customization where the worst more than the best might occur.

Customized rifles : stay clear.


Reading that I wonder why the Sako insn’t tried.
I suppose that out of courtesy, Rich doesn’t mention Blaser, Sauer, Merkel, Heym……..

Finally some commentaries :
Barie Duckworth : "Had I used a double I'll be a deadman" (during ele culling)
Ivan Carter : " Had I used a repeater, I'll be dead" stopping a charging lion.

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The comments on double rifles above are probably the difference between shooting a herd with an FN, no "sporting" attempt at all, just slaughter, including cows and calfs. Shoot multiple times until it drops, versus a sporting hunt or for example following up a beast into thick bush where it is waiting for the hunting.

After all, what do bastard poachers use, or protrayed to use, AK-47's in 7.62x39 full auto. Just blast away until the poor beast dies, even if the pathetic penetration of that inadequate cartridge. Elephant can ne killed with multiple spear hits too. Different story to a sporting and ethical kill.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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.458 bolt gun would be my choice from what I have around, but doubt the "friends of animals" types would let real culling start again, even where it is needed.

Anyone hear from Dan/500grains any time recently?

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Aren't elephant herds still culled in Zimbabwe? They were still being culled ten years ago in this manner when I was last there.

Dan spat the dummy here and "resigned" and asked to be deleted when I deleted a photo he posted of US soldiers urinating on muslim dead in Afghanistan. Claimed it was a free speech issue. I think it is just a decency issue and not needed on this forum. He decided to leave on his free will. Probably his tirade was prompted when I joked to him privately NE was one of few forums he wasn't banned from, after he listed all the forums he had been banned on. Immediately silly posts started after that ...

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Sorry to hear that Dan is gone from here. Despite his quirks, he was quite knowledgeable on rifles and ele hunting.

Zimbabwe stopped the culling in Parks a good while back as I understand it. The do "ration" hunts, tuskless, and some non-trophy, non-export hunts but the culling you read about where they managed the numbers in the parks is a thing of the past so far as I know.

I may be off but that is my understanding.

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Dan voluntarily left. So if he reapplied he would probably be rejoined. His account probably still exists, but "turned off". I enjoyed his posts and regarded him as a friend up to that point.

Zim was ding a cull in Binga in 2006 when I was there. Of a herd of about forty two animals. I guess that is ten years ago now. Time flies.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Depends if we are talking about culling individual beasts or whole herds. Completely different scenarios.

Harland's comments below are contradictory somewhat ie as in .416 and heavier best, yet names the FN 7.62 (.308) as "top notch". The reason being the semi auto or full auto FN with a large twenty round magazine is useful in a herd situation. Where follow up shots to drop a beast are quick and readily available, or other animals, and magazine changes are quickly done. I guess the military spitzer FMJ ammunition here still worked, perhaps with multiple shots when needed. Even though the same sort of bullet is very much criticised in sporting ammunition and use???

Mannlicher Schoenauer, the "very best" - why?

Interesting he claims the safeties are on the wrong side even though most rights do have the safety on the right side??? Any comments of that?

Customised rifles - "stay clear". Stupid statement as a customised rifles is not "standard" and could be anything of what he either likes or dislikes ...

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I am right now re-reading the book Ndlovu of Rich Harland. Rich was in plenty of cullings and provide lots of advises.
Of course, no double rifle, because they are to slow to reload et the more ammos in the rifles the better.
Calibers : he insist on calibers from 416 and larger. On a practical point of view, 416 Rigby and 458 WM or 458 Lott. 505 Gibs is perfect but few rifles offer this caliber.

Barrel lenght : 28 inch too long, 20 inch perfect balance and handling in jesse.

Among the makers :

Weatherby : out, the bullets are way too fast and very prone to deflect or explode without penetrating.

Remington 700, lots of jammings and very tricky to reload, too slow when in action

Wincherster M70 : better with controlled feed instead of push-feed. The safety catch is on the wrong side, dangerous in action.

Ruger M77, OK but bedding required. Troubles with the 416 Rigby , it needs a stonger magazine spring.

Browning A Bold : Good, but trouble with closing the floor plate, the safety is excellent.

BRNO ZKK62 excellent

CZ : Good but safety the wrong way and wrong side. The 458 WM softs feed badly, too short for the large receiver, opt for the 44578 Lott. Bedding recommended.

Mannlicher Schoenauer : the very best, no discussion
approved by Don Heath.

BSA : top notch if pre 1967 with the serial number prefixed by 9C.

FN : top notch

English, careful : Westley Richards made “native” rifles very poor built on Mauser action. Same with Cogswell and Harrison with P14 actions.

Mauser : The rare Mauser magnum and Brevex are impossible to find.
Mauser Standard receiver :OK with 404 and 9.3x62. Other calibers are customization where the worst more than the best might occur.

Customized rifles : stay clear.


Reading that I wonder why the Sako insn’t tried.
I suppose that out of courtesy, Rich doesn’t mention Blaser, Sauer, Merkel, Heym……..

Finally some commentaries :
Barie Duckworth : "Had I used a double I'll be a deadman" (during ele culling)
Ivan Carter : " Had I used a repeater, I'll be dead" stopping a charging lion.

---

The comments on double rifles above are probably the difference between shooting a herd with an FN, no "sporting" attempt at all, just slaughter, including cows and calfs. Shoot multiple times until it drops, versus a sporting hunt or for example following up a beast into thick bush where it is waiting for the hunting.

After all, what do bastard poachers use, or protrayed to use, AK-47's in 7.62x39 full auto. Just blast away until the poor beast dies, even if the pathetic penetration of that inadequate cartridge. Elephant can ne killed with multiple spear hits too. Different story to a sporting and ethical kill.

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Just a few thoughts on some issues raised.

The safety catch. To be on the correct side for a right hander should be on the left to be activated with the thumb of the shooting hand aka SMLE FN SLR M16. Minimal time to disengage and hand does not have to loose the shooting grip.

Customized rifles. I see two reasons for the "stay clear". One is they can be a botched job where they do not operate as reliably as they should. 2) they are a top notch job and the tolerances are too tight, so rifle jams with the slightest of dust/crud in the system.

It amazes me when people say the Remington is no good. If this was the case then the US Marines and others would not of used it as the base for their sniper rifles. I personally have never experienced any problems with Remington 700. This may be because I was taught on the SMLE where you had to place the round in the magazine and slide it back into position, not just roll it in with the base already at the rear of the mag. Same method as required for any single stack mag that I am aware of. But each to their own.

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I agree, Larcher - the old ZKK602 BRNO was a serious rifle.
My Mark 10 Mauser also seems so.

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Mark 10 Mauser. I don't know who made them, no thumb groove and commercially sold actions and rifles. I have one on my .375/06IMP. It's an excellent M98 action, standard length.

just googled it- Interarms

https://www.google.ca/search?q=mark+10+m...4ylDozkjgTUw4pg

One of the posts on a different forum:

"They are made by Zastava, but the Interarms guns were much more highly finished than the Zastava's currently being imported as Remington 798's. I had one in 458 Win Mag and it was a slick gun and very accurate."

I must add to this - the Mark 10 Mauser actions are quite highly finished, like a Browning FN action.

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Mannlicher Schoenauer, the "very best" - why?

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It amazes me when people say the Remington is no good. If this was the case then the US Marines and others would not of used it as the base for their sniper rifles. I personally have never experienced any problems with Remington 700. This may be because I was taught on the SMLE where you had to place the round in the magazine and slide it back into position, not just roll it in with the base already at the rear of the mag. Same method as required for any single stack mag that I am aware of. But each to their own.

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Mannlicher Schoenauer, the "very best" - why?

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I guess because that is what he used an came to trust with his life. Some of the great features of the MS are the extremely slick feeding, very slick and fast bolt cycling and absolutely reliable feeding from the rotary magazine. Plus the short action on the .458 cartridge compared to the magnum Mauser actions. All features that would have been welcome in that hot, dirty, stressful job...

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Jabalihunter
You perfectly summarizes Rich Hardland's opinion.

Regards to rifles they were using ;
Those in the Game department should use what was provided. They have some preferences but must use the caliber and the rifle this admnistration had selected and issued. For what I understand there also was exceptions with some opting to buy a personal rifle and using the issued ammunitions. That represented an investment in a tool that was fast consumed. It would be fine that Rich Hardland could express himself. He is a very kind man.


Maybe John can join him on Facebook and ask him????

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"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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Mark 10 Mauser. I don't know who made them, no thumb groove and commercially sold actions and rifles. I have one on my .375/06IMP. It's an excellent M98 action, standard length.

just googled it- Interarms

https://www.google.ca/search?q=mark+10+m...4ylDozkjgTUw4pg

One of the posts on a different forum:

"They are made by Zastava, but the Interarms guns were much more highly finished than the Zastava's currently being imported as Remington 798's. I had one in 458 Win Mag and it was a slick gun and very accurate."

I must add to this - the Mark 10 Mauser actions are quite highly finished, like a Browning FN action.

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It amazes me when people say the Remington is no good. If this was the case then the US Marines and others would not of used it as the base for their sniper rifles. I personally have never experienced any problems with Remington 700. This may be because I was taught on the SMLE where you had to place the round in the magazine and slide it back into position, not just roll it in with the base already at the rear of the mag. Same method as required for any single stack mag that I am aware of. But each to their own.

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It is down to a number of things, which boil down to the fact that the requirements for a culling rifle are more akin to a bolt action battle rifle than a bolt action sniper rifle. Experience led these guys to favour the controlled round feeding and full size extractor claw for reliability under these circumstances, i.e. when a jam or miss-feed could cost you your life. Another factor was some early experiences with the .416 rem in Remington rifles regarding pressure and extraction problems. And if you think that these are non issues today, you only have to see buzz Charltons video where his bolt freezes up after firing at a departing elephant. These guys didn't then have access to countless different choices and options - often big calibre rifles came on the market infrequently when an older guy retired.nso word quickly got around as to what was best to spend your hard earned money on and which ones were rumoured to be less reliable. the late Ganyana's reports on rifle problems on the PH exams also showed up rifle problems that had to be overcome and which ones caused problems.

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I fully understand what you are saying and I think a lot of people are biased by reporting from days gone by. For the first 30 years of my shooting life there is absolutely no way I would trust my life to a Mauser or similar action. I witnessed too many failing. These failures included fail to feed, double feed, fail to extract, dropping fired cases into the action. Shock horror the god of all rifles has failures that people say wont/can't happen with them, My bloody oath they do. The only control round feed rifle I have never had a problem with or seen, except for people who stack the rounds in incorrectly- is the SMLE. Not saying for one minute there won't have been similar problems and it is certainly not an action for high pressure rounds. I have never had an issue with my Remington's, Win M94, Tikkas yet others have.

I do run a Ruger 77 Mk2 and CZ550 and P14/M17s. Learnt that any rifle made by man can and will fail, so when I buy them I run them hard and any issues I have fixed. I know of an incident when a mate was hunting and ran into a decent dust storm. His CZ550 was bound up with the dust and required stripping to full clean and get rifle functional. His son with a ZV24, pulled the bolt out, opened the magazine, blew the dust out and was right to go. Cleaned the barrel when back in camp.

I have heard people talk about pressure and extraction problems with R700 in 416 Rem in Africa. However I have never heard this from a person that it happened to. The other thing that puzzles me is why is 40C hotter in Africa then any where else in the world. I for one can vouch that 45c in Australia is just as hot as 45C in Zimbabwe.

I have not seen that video of Buzz Charlton. However I would suggest that if the case became stuck in the chamber for what ever reason, then the make of rifle has no bearing as you would still have a stuck case. Yes you might be able to get it out with a claw extractor and a lump of wood but at the time the rifle would still be just a tomato stake.

I have read the late Ganyana's write up on the PH exam. Very noteworthy in the main. However some of the stuff ups were operator error. That is not being familiar and comfortable with their rifle.

What would/have I used after dangerous game, most any rifle in adequate calibre that I had tested over time. I did use and love my CZ550 in 416Rigby for Ele and Buff

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I have heard people talk about pressure and extraction problems with R700 in 416 Rem in Africa. However I have never heard this from a person that it happened to. The other thing that puzzles me is why is 40C hotter in Africa then any where else in the world. I for one can vouch that 45c in Australia is just as hot as 45C in Zimbabwe.

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I have read the late Ganyana's write up on the PH exam. Very noteworthy in the main. However some of the stuff ups were operator error. That is not being familiar and comfortable with their rifle.

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Part of this is no doubt these guys are all newbies, apprentice PHs with rifles that may not have used much or for a long time. No fine tuning or years of hard esperience with these rifles. A large part of it would be due to these factors. If the "survey" was systemmatic and completely objective on the 'results' of the type of firearm, then the results would be more objective. Compared somewhat to personal subjective observation. The skill of the user still plays a big part.

A comment regarding Mk X's / Whitworth's etc, is some of the longer cartridge chamberings such as .375 H&H Mag are a "tight fit" through the loading port. My Whitworth requires the cartridge to be inserted base first at a backward direction before being pushed into the internal magazine. For a 'thoughtless' loading M98 in the heat of the moment a magnum length action is better. Unless the user is thoroughly esed to the particular rifle.

For my own handloads I deliberately seat the projectiles in mice and deep to make the loading of the magazine easier. Some long pointed projectiles can be a problem and require more careful loading.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Mannlicher Schoenauer, the "very best" - why?

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I guess because that is what he used an came to trust with his life. Some of the great features of the MS are the extremely slick feeding, very slick and fast bolt cycling and absolutely reliable feeding from the rotary magazine. Plus the short action on the .458 cartridge compared to the magnum Mauser actions. All features that would have been welcome in that hot, dirty, stressful job...

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Seems he was not alone: Terry Irwin in Memoirs of an African Hunter (p118) says

"Magazine rifles are not without problems. I occasionally found that, when the bolt is flicked open in a hurry, the rounds in the magazine pop out of the top, preventing you from reloading. I have also had the magazine baseplate-clip open with the recoil, and all the rounds fall out. Both these faults can be disconcerting in the face of dangerous game, necessitating a hasty retreat. These problems disappeared, though, when I bought a Mannlicher-Schoenauer with a revolving magazine, which held each round individually."

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Stupid question. In the bgrc I have to shoot 8 shots in 32 seconds. If doubles are no good for culling elephants then what is the point of this type of competition. Maybe I should just get a cz that I can shove 6 rounds in so I only reload once?

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Mark 10 Mauser. I don't know who made them, no thumb groove and commercially sold actions and rifles. I have one on my .375/06IMP. It's an excellent M98 action, standard length.

just googled it- Interarms

https://www.google.ca/search?q=mark+10+m...4ylDozkjgTUw4pg

One of the posts on a different forum:

"They are made by Zastava, but the Interarms guns were much more highly finished than the Zastava's currently being imported as Remington 798's. I had one in 458 Win Mag and it was a slick gun and very accurate."

I must add to this - the Mark 10 Mauser actions are quite highly finished, like a Browning FN action.

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Thanks Daryl,
I now see what kind of rifle You use.
It would be fine to have Mr Dorleac opinion. Personally I appreciate the Zasastava action. I am elated that it's not a K98 Mauser action that has been customized. Mr Dorleac could tell You how it could be difficult to pick up a good Mauser action. There were a myriad of actions made. The quality and the steel quality for example are variable and those made during war periods weren't made to the high standard one has to look for for big calibers. In Your case the Zastava action is quite modern and could be fully trusted. I agree with You that the finishing of the Zastava actions could be better. I think that Interarms have requirements specifications.

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I have a custom in .416 Remington built on this action..shoots very well --only problem for me personally is the guy put a 25" barrel on it..I would rather have a 22 on a DG rifle..but that is merely personal preference..and not an issue with the action..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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My take on it, with no experience in this area is; When culling I would think you would be firing multiple shots repeatedly. Now this would not be a one off situation. I do not know if doubles are able to take this sort of work over extended periods without shooting loose. Most bolt actions can take being worked that hot that you can't touch the barrel-sure the barrels will not last as long as they would if not shot this hot.

Other factor is how many who cull can afford a good reliable double?

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My take on it, with no experience in this area is; When culling I would think you would be firing multiple shots repeatedly. Now this would not be a one off situation. I do not know if doubles are able to take this sort of work over extended periods without shooting loose. Most bolt actions can take being worked that hot that you can't touch the barrel-sure the barrels will not last as long as they would if not shot this hot.

Other factor is how many who cull can afford a good reliable double?

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There were a lot of cheap double shotguns around. The style of action itself is not inherently expensive.

Keep in mind that the same firms that made "reliable" double rifles, also made the kind of double-guns that Lord Muckity-Muck would use when going through 50,000 cartridges in a season.

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True but bear in mind that a double rifle is going to produce somewhat more pressure and strain on the action than a shotgun, also it takes a few more rounds to heat the barrel as hot as what rifle cartridges do.

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My take on it, with no experience in this area is; When culling I would think you would be firing multiple shots repeatedly. Now this would not be a one off situation. I do not know if doubles are able to take this sort of work over extended periods without shooting loose.

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I didn't understand either why a good double rifle would shoot loose when culling elephant ??? Why would it be different to firing a dozen or two shots when hunting herds of feral pigs, or even shooting a round at a BGRC shoot? The barrels do get hot there too.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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My take on it, with no experience in this area is; When culling I would think you would be firing multiple shots repeatedly. Now this would not be a one off situation. I do not know if doubles are able to take this sort of work over extended periods without shooting loose.

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I didn't understand either why a good double rifle would shoot loose when culling elephant ??? Why would it be different to firing a dozen or two shots when hunting herds of feral pigs, or even shooting a round at a BGRC shoot? The barrels do get hot there too.

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Well as I said I don't have any experience in that area and was putting forward a reason as well as a question. So if you know that a good, bad or indifferent double (as all types were used) will not shoot loose then please tell us. I know plenty of good shotguns that have shot loose so why would a double not do that?

Yes I do appreciate that there would be a group of people involved in the Cull.

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A 338 Lapua from a Cobra gunship,why not!

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Altamaha are you sure they were FN49? The 49 I had was 30-06 and a fixed magazine of 8 rounds from memory no pistol grip. Certainly FN-FAL/SLR/L1A1.

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Mike La Grange was reputed to have shot well over 6,000 on culls in Zim. Would have been a damned expensive thing to do with a double (depreciation, ammunition and likely rebarreling)...

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