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Rule303
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: cooch]
      #280792 - 12/04/16 08:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:



My take on it, with no experience in this area is; When culling I would think you would be firing multiple shots repeatedly. Now this would not be a one off situation. I do not know if doubles are able to take this sort of work over extended periods without shooting loose. Most bolt actions can take being worked that hot that you can't touch the barrel-sure the barrels will not last as long as they would if not shot this hot.

Other factor is how many who cull can afford a good reliable double?



There were a lot of cheap double shotguns around. The style of action itself is not inherently expensive.

Keep in mind that the same firms that made "reliable" double rifles, also made the kind of double-guns that Lord Muckity-Muck would use when going through 50,000 cartridges in a season.



True but bear in mind that a double rifle is going to produce somewhat more pressure and strain on the action than a shotgun, also it takes a few more rounds to heat the barrel as hot as what rifle cartridges do.

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cooch
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: Rule303]
      #280793 - 12/04/16 08:48 PM

Nothing new in that.

It is why rifle actions are designed to be stronger than your typical game-gun.

Just noting that a week's active shooting by an avid bird-shooter of that era would put as many cartridges through a gun as an elephant shooter might use in a lifetime.. The makers were well aware of the issues.

It'd be interesting to read some accounts of the culls. In this context, it would give us some idea of rates of fire required.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: cooch]
      #280832 - 13/04/16 03:54 PM

Quote:

My take on it, with no experience in this area is; When culling I would think you would be firing multiple shots repeatedly. Now this would not be a one off situation. I do not know if doubles are able to take this sort of work over extended periods without shooting loose.



I didn't understand either why a good double rifle would shoot loose when culling elephant ??? Why would it be different to firing a dozen or two shots when hunting herds of feral pigs, or even shooting a round at a BGRC shoot? The barrels do get hot there too.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: NitroX]
      #280834 - 13/04/16 03:57 PM

Another thing about an elephant herd cull. It isn't one guy shooting 42 elephant non stop, but a team of shooters.

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Rule303
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: NitroX]
      #280836 - 13/04/16 04:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My take on it, with no experience in this area is; When culling I would think you would be firing multiple shots repeatedly. Now this would not be a one off situation. I do not know if doubles are able to take this sort of work over extended periods without shooting loose.



I didn't understand either why a good double rifle would shoot loose when culling elephant ??? Why would it be different to firing a dozen or two shots when hunting herds of feral pigs, or even shooting a round at a BGRC shoot? The barrels do get hot there too.



Well as I said I don't have any experience in that area and was putting forward a reason as well as a question. So if you know that a good, bad or indifferent double (as all types were used) will not shoot loose then please tell us. I know plenty of good shotguns that have shot loose so why would a double not do that?

Yes I do appreciate that there would be a group of people involved in the Cull.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: Rule303]
      #280837 - 13/04/16 07:44 PM

Not sure about all the "good, bad, or indifferent" critieria as such could be applied to bolt actions, SLRs, poorly maintained, poor ammo choices etc.

I just come back to the question, why would a double rifle shoot off face or "loose" because of an elephant cull?

Any emphirical evidence that X shots through a DR mean it will be "off face" or "shoot loose"? Any one else want to comment from experience?

The main reason some claim a double is not ideal for a cull is the number of repeated shots that might be needed, follow up shots, emergency shots etc.

And perhaps as with the usual PHs a lack of spending money to buy double rifles. Lots of good PHs have asked me over time how to get a "cheaply" or well priced double rifle when in Africa. If they haven't got one, they can't use one. The amount of $$$ the PH has makes a big difference in the tools he can use. No doubt about it. And cull shooters tend not to be the best heeled guys.

However for a cull I do think a good magazine bolt action of adequate power does seem ideal for mass shooting cows and calfs. Or an SLR/FN Fal. Nothing sporting about it at all.

Interesting though, just watched a video where a side by aide shooter shot ten shots in the same time as a five shot Adler lever action shotgun, when time to reload the Adler is factored in. Alex Beer here on NE was damned wuick with his Ruger No. 1 single shots in fast repeating shooting as well.

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Edited by NitroX (13/04/16 08:05 PM)

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Rule303
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: NitroX]
      #280840 - 13/04/16 08:56 PM

Granted on the bolt and semi auto types and their quality. I did not think that was an issue.

I doubt any gun would shoot loose on just one cull. I did mention repeated shoots. As said if anybody knows for sure please chime in.

I have seen the video where a bloke with a double gets 4 away quicker than a bloke with a bolt holding 4. The bolt was a 416 Rigby the double was a decent cartridge but I can not remember what it was. Not questioning the speed of the double in the hands of a person who practices and practices to develop the technique then the speed will come. I doubt the average ranger would do this and as you say the cost of obtaining a reliable double is beyond most PH's in Africa.

Agree about the bolt or FN/SLR for culling.

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mchughcb
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: Rule303]
      #280845 - 13/04/16 11:02 PM

Do you have a link to the Adler versus other video?

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Altamaha
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: mchughcb]
      #280848 - 14/04/16 01:55 AM

I recall watching a video long ago of a cull of a large herd.

Main rifles in use were FN49's in 308.

4 or 5 gents handled the FN49's, very fast action, quick head shots.

Two gents had large caliber bolt guns as "stoppers" in case of a 308 shot not making its mark or a charge by an ele on the sideline.

The FN49 shooters were very good, even jumping up on fallen elephant to have a better shot at those standing. Those big capacity magazines were a definite plus.

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gryphon
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: gryphon]
      #280854 - 14/04/16 05:18 AM

Quote:

A 338 Lapua from a Cobra gunship,why not!



The above was in relation to an older film I watched on culling a herd from a chopper.
The cows had formed up a protective ring with the calves and the shooter just dropped them one after the other with single shots from above.

Although I have no qualms about knocking animals the film was somewhat disturbing. The E cows trumpeting and screaming with no hope of protecting their young,old matriarchs of many a year just dropping like flies.

I believe from memories long ago a bolt was used.

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Rule303
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: Altamaha]
      #280869 - 14/04/16 11:32 AM

Altamaha are you sure they were FN49? The 49 I had was 30-06 and a fixed magazine of 8 rounds from memory no pistol grip. Certainly FN-FAL/SLR/L1A1.

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cooch
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: Rule303]
      #280888 - 14/04/16 06:21 PM

I recall reading that the social disruption and the behaviour changes that resulted from culling made it preferable to drop the whole group.

....... and using rifles caused less panic than tranks.

Funny critters, the old ele.

--------------------
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Altamaha
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: Rule303]
      #280903 - 15/04/16 12:43 AM

Quote:

Altamaha are you sure they were FN49? The 49 I had was 30-06 and a fixed magazine of 8 rounds from memory no pistol grip. Certainly FN-FAL/SLR/L1A1.



Could be. Watched the video long ago and my 70 year old memory has a fault or two. I do recall the shooters showing the FMJ 308 cartridges and saying how effective they were if a good brain shot was made. An unlimited supply of 308/7.62 Nato cartridges was their main reason for using this combination. The magazines were very long, 20 rounders I believe.

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93mouse
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: Altamaha]
      #280919 - 15/04/16 04:56 AM

It all depends on circumstances - culling in Valley Jess is something completely different from culling in open terrain Lowveld or SA...a PH I hunted with in Zim usually (open terrain) approached the herd alone or with another shooter - both armed with 2 bolt actioned rifles of same design each (.375 H&H Brno or .458 WM M70) accompanied with a gunbearers whose job was to reload an empty rifle asap. Experienced culler dropped a heard of 15 in a minute or so - main job was to locate the matriarh and kill it first, the rest was just slaughter, baby elephants were shot with S&W .44 mag...

As of video mentioned above - here is a simillar one (or the same?) - fast forward to min 3:00. I have talked about it with late Ganyana - if memory serves me well culling team was operating in threes - leading gunman that storms the herd (he is doing all the shooting with FN .308 - in video he wears an orange cloth on the back so he is visible) by 2 backup gunmen that are watching his back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbwZTtejuhQ

As you can see - this stuff has nothing to do with hunting and a very litle with hunting guns - it is a mass destruction with arms designed for War.

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mchughcb
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: 93mouse]
      #280962 - 15/04/16 01:22 PM

So that answers video the question. A 30 calibre in a semi auto with high magazine capacity does the job. Is it the best? - well its cheap and quick.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: mchughcb]
      #281045 - 17/04/16 02:25 AM

Mike La Grange was reputed to have shot well over 6,000 on culls in Zim. Would have been a damned expensive thing to do with a double (depreciation, ammunition and likely rebarreling)...

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gryphon
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #281053 - 17/04/16 04:21 AM

Well the chilli gun works too.

http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Chilli-gun-keeps-elephants-out-of-busy-Zim-town-20150406

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gryphon
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Re: Elephant culling - what caliber is best? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #281055 - 17/04/16 04:24 AM

Quote:

Mike La Grange was reputed to have shot well over 6,000 on culls in Zim. Would have been a damned expensive thing to do with a double (depreciation, ammunition and likely rebarreling)...



And if there is an end to any discussing,buy the book. THis bloke as mentioned by Jabalihunter above has the right stuff.


http://www.amazon.com/Ballistics-Perspective-Mike-Lagrange/dp/096248072X

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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