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coll416
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: dotchicco]
      #329443 - 18/06/19 02:33 PM

Hey guys

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Ripp
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: dotchicco]
      #329449 - 19/06/19 01:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I have seen the 9.3X62 used quite a few times in the last 8-9 years and I have shot a few round myself from that shell, and I have personally used the 9.3X74R a lot more, and seen excellent results when I use good bullets. The 9.3X64 beats both of these shells by about 100-200 FPS, so again, given bullet that will not shatter, I am 100% sure it would be excellent because to be perfectly frank, I can't see a lot of difference in the kills from a 375H&H, a 9.3X62 and a 9.3X74R, so I see no reason the 9.3X64 would not be as good.




I'd add that .366 bullet has higher bc and better sectional density, for the same weight.
So considering that today powders have increased 9,3x64 energy at a superior level (6000 joule) that today bullets are comfortable with high velocity (A frame, woodleight PP and solids, oryx and many monolithics ) that all the weapons around chambering the old brenneke's beast are high quality gun, ( while .375 H& H often are low price with poor ergonomy and lightweight)
We can assure that today it's absolutely superior if compared to 1950's .375 performance.
I Think that only using the 9,3x64 a shooter can really understand its value.
Doc




All good points... and agree...thank you for your information


Ripp

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #329474 - 19/06/19 03:36 PM

Quote:

Greatest Cartridges: 9.3×62 Mauser, Effective on About Everything

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloadin...bout-everything




Greatest Cartridges: 9.3×62 Mauser, Effective on About Everything
By Tom Turpin -September 5, 2014020205



Norma Oryx Soft Point 9.3×62 Muser cartridge cartridges. Photo: Arz.

In the late nineteenth century and well into the twentieth, the continental Europeans and the United Kingdom were busy expanding their spheres of influence around the world. No continent experienced these expansions more than Africa.

The Dutch were busy in South Africa, the Portuguese in Mozambique, the Belgians in Zaire, the English in Kenya and Rhodesia, the French in Central African Republic and the Germans in Namibia and Tanzania as primary conquests. Most had a few other involvements as well.

The English produced heavy caliber rifles as well as ammunition for them, suitable for the largest and most dangerous game the Dark Continent had to offer. Alas, while the UK products were excellent and reliable, they were quite expensive, out of the budget range for the average farmer/colonist.





The German colonists living in German SW Africa and German East Africa were very active in complaining to the home country for their need for affordable rifles and ammunition suitable for use against Africa’s big and dangerous game animals.

Germany was already producing what was to become the best bolt-action rifle available with their Mauser Model 98. They just didn’t have a powerful enough cartridge to fit in a standard Model 98 length, to do battle against Africa’s dangerous fauna.


Early in the twentieth century, a gunsmith by the name of Otto Bock, took on the task of developing such a cartridge. In 1905, he introduced the results of his developmental efforts, the 9.3×62mm cartridge – also known as the 9.3×62 Mauser.

The cartridge featured a 9.3mm bullet diameter (.366”) loaded into a 62mm long rimless case. The cartridge was originally loaded with a 285-grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps. It fit nicely in a Mauser 98 action, and operation and feeding was excellent. Later, the cartridge was juiced up a bit, and loaded primarily with a 286-grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of around 2400 fps.


The CIP established a Maximum Average Pressure of 56,500 psi. In modern strong rifles, there is no reason that it could not be safely loaded to 60,000 psi, providing around 2500 fps, if such was deemed desirable. The cartridge became exceeding popular in Europe and in Africa, and still is today.

On this side of the Atlantic though, it scarcely ruffled a feather. Until recently, the last five years or so, no American manufacturer made a rifle for it, no American ammunition company loaded ammo for it, and the major American reloading components folks offered neither bullets nor brass for the 9.3×62. If someone happened to have a rifle so chambered, he was totally dependent upon European sources for loaded ammunition and components.

Things have changed considerably in the past few years. Thanks largely to the efforts of writers like John Barsness, Chub Eastman, Phil Shoemaker, and to a much lesser extent, my modest efforts, the cartridge is gaining popularity by leaps and bounds. And, well it should. It is one hell of a cartridge.



The 9.3x62mm (left) compared to a number of popular rifle cartridges. Next in line from the left: .30-06 Springfield, 8×57 IS, 6.5×55, .308 Winchester. Photo: Kalashnikov

Even old John “Pondoro” Taylor, Anglophil that he was, even had good things to say about the 9.3×62 cartridge. He wrote in African Rifles and Cartridges, “I have never heard any complaints about the 9.3mm. Its penetration is adequate for anything. It has never had the write-up that certain other calibers received from time to time. Men just take it for granted and it goes steadily on its way like some honest old farm horse. In spite of all the more modern magnums and ‘supers,’ the 9.3mm still remains the favorite medium bore of many experienced hunters.”

Today, factory loaded ammunition is available from Federal, Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, and I believe that Winchester has been loading it for some time for European consumption, but, to my knowledge, none has been sold in this country. Bullets are available from a variety of bullet makers in weights from 232 grain (Norma) to a whopping 320 grains (Woodleigh) and about every stop in-between those extremes.

I can’t imagine a better cartridge for chasing elk in heavy timber, rooting a mad brown bear out of the alders, or laying on the winters meat supply by taking a moose in the willows. There is no whiz-bang about the cartridge.


As Pondoro Taylor put it, it’s just a workhorse of cartridges, effective and useful on about anything.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #329475 - 19/06/19 03:52 PM

Quote:


THE 9.3×64 BRENNEKE, GERMANY’S ANSWER TO THE 375 HOLLAND AND HOLLAND MAGNUM

https://revivaler.com/the-9-3x64-brenneke-germanys-answer-to-the-375-holland-and-holland-magnum/




THE 9.3×64 BRENNEKE, GERMANY’S ANSWER TO THE 375 HOLLAND AND HOLLAND MAGNUM
Cartridges, Main, Rifles Permalink


(Note: This post was updated with additional information on 7th April 2015).

The 9.3x64mm Brenneke is, in my mind at least, one of the top two cartridges for the “one rifle world wide hunter”. There are only two factors that put it in second place to the 375 Holland and Holland Magnum. The first being that there are a small number of African nations where the .375″ bullet is the legal minimum for large dangerous game: The second being that both ammunition and re-loading information for the 375H&H Magnum is much more common than for the 9.3×64 Brenneke.

https://revivaler.com/wp-content/uploads...forum.net_.jpeg
[image][/image]

An older and now obsolete loading for the 9.3×64 Brenneke is the 18.5 gram Teil Mantle (soft point). Though not clearly visible in this picture the junction of the jacket and lead core had a defined ridge perhaps designed to create a wad-cutter effect. (Picture courtesy of vadaszforum.net)

Nonetheless the 9.3×64 Brenneke is by no means either an obsolete or a rare cartridge on the world stage, although it is likely to be uncommon in the United States. In fact two Steyr Mannlicher Model S rifles I had the pleasure of examining in a gun shop in Jakarta in 1975 were both chambered for the 9.3×64 Brenneke and the rifles were intended to be used for deer stalking. So, although the caliber might be less common in the USA, Nosler provide excellent loading data for use with their 250 grain “AccuBond”, 286 grain Spitzer Partition, and 286 grain Solid bullets.





Nosler’s web site is well worth visiting; they provide re-loading data on-line and free. The data can be downloaded in PDF format and/or printed so you have a permanent record, and, of course, Nosler bullets are second to none in the world. You can find this data for the 9.3×64 Brenneke if you click here. Linked to that page are all the calibers for which Nosler provide free re-loading data.

Just that set of loading data for the superb Nosler bullets would really be enough to tackle pretty much anything from deer on up on planet earth with a 9.3×64 Brenneke, but additional data is out there. There is additional free re-loading data available for those interested in searching the web for it. Additional data can be found on an Italian language site here for example. Just be aware that re-loading data found on unknown web sites needs to be checked for reliability against other sources. Data from a company such as Nosler however can be trusted as reliable. This makes the data above as published by Nosler particularly valuable.

Another reliable source of data is the web site of Brenneke Ammunition GMBH who provide both loaded ammunition and bullets for Wilhelm Brenneke’s original cartridges plus some others more familiar to those in the USA and Canada such as the 7mm Remington Magnum, the 300 Winchester Magnum and the 375 Holland and Holland Magnum. Brenneke Ammunition GMBH also provide factory reloading data including for the 9.3×64 Brenneke.



You will find information on the cartridges Brenneke make if you click here.

You will find reloading data for Brenneke cartridges and for a number of calibers familiar to USA and Canada shooters if you click here.

The data and brochures are in PDF format and you can download them freely if you click here.

How does the 9.3×64 Brenneke stack up against the 375 Holland and Holland Magnum? Does it really deserve equal status with the 375H&H Magnum? To answer that let’s look at the entries for both cartridges as published by RWS of Germany.



The 9.3×64 Brenneke and the 375 Holland and Holland Magnum as they compare in the RWS catalog.

As you can see from the above data the 9.3×64 Brenneke drives a 293 grain Uni Classic bullet at 2575fps (785m/s) by comparison with the 375 Holland and Holland Magnum which drives a 301 grain Uni Classic bullet at 2493fps (760m/s). Thus the 9.3×64 Brenneke starts out a near equal bullet weight, with a much higher Ballistic Coefficient, at slightly higher muzzle velocity, to deliver more energy at the muzzle, and as we move downrange to 300 meters the difference becomes even more marked in the 9.3×64 Brenneke’s favor. The two cartridges are very closely matched in performance. I’d feel adequately equipped to face any game animal on earth armed with a rifle chambered for either one of them.

The 9.3x64mm Brenneke is one of those lesser known but absolutely superb calibers that deserves to be far more popular than it currently is. It is most commonly found chambered in top quality European rifles and is, as I said in the beginning of this post, one of my top two cartridges for the “world wide one rifle hunter”. What you choose may ultimately depend on what is available in the rifle of your choice.



A beautiful Mannlicher-Schönauer M72 Model S chambered for the 9.3×64 Brenneke offered for sale on milanuncios.com recently.


Jon C. Branch
Jon Branch is the founder and senior editor of Revivaler and has written a significant number of articles for various publications including official Buying Guides for eBay, classic car articles for Hagerty, magazine articles for both the Australian Shooters Journal and the Australian Shooter, and he’s a long time contributor to Silodrome.

Jon has done radio, television, magazine and newspaper interviews on various issues, and has traveled extensively, having lived in Britain, Australia, China and Hong Kong. His travels have taken him to Indonesia, Israel, Italy, Japan and a number of other countries. He has studied the Japanese sword arts and has a long history of involvement in the shooting sports, which has included authoring submissions to government on various firearms related issues and assisting in the design and establishment of shooting ranges.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #329476 - 19/06/19 04:04 PM

Quote:

Nine-Three..--by Craig Boddington

The 9.3, not the .375, should really be considered the minimum caliber for dangerous game.

https://sportsafield.com/nine-three/






NINE-THREE
– by Craig Boddington
The 9.3, not the .375, should really be considered the minimum caliber for dangerous game.
It’s a longstanding article of faith that the .375 is the legal minimum for Africa’s thick-skinned dangerous game. This has been the “letter of the law” in some African jurisdictions, but in many cases, it is simply not true. Some African countries have no caliber stipulations at all. The most rigid I know of was the rule imposed by the East African Professional Hunters Association (EAPHA) that imposed a .40-caliber minimum for elephant, rhino, and hippo throughout the British sphere. This restriction essentially went away when the EAPHA formally disbanded in late 1977, following the closure of hunting in Kenya.

In most countries that have actual caliber (or cartridge) requirements, the more common minimum is not .375 but its European equivalent, the 9.3mm (caliber .366). Zimbabwe has perhaps the most complex rules, stating minimum energy requirements for various classes of game. Sounds good, but in the game laws these are expressed in the European kilojoules of energy, inexplicable to we non-metric Americans. Some years back the minimum energy requirement for “buffalo and larger” game fell right at the .375 H&H level, or about 4,000 foot-pounds of energy. The late Don Heath was in charge of Zimbabwe’s rigorous PH testing and licensing. Don was a staunch 9.3mm fan; twenty years ago he rewrote Zimbabwe’s game laws so that the minimum energy requirement for the largest game would include the 9.3x62mm Mauser and 9.3x74R, which produce a bit over 3,500 foot-pounds with the standard 286-grain bullet.



Boddington’s Sabatti 9.3x74R double groups inside of two inches at 100 yards, making it an effective and useful 200-yard double rifle. 93x74R doubles tend to be much less costly than big-bore doubles and can be built very light. This rifle weighs about seven pounds.

I believe strongly in the old adage to “use enough gun” for dangerous game. However, regardless of exactly how the law is written, common sense must be applied. Should a “.375 minimum” include the .375 Winchester, 250-grain bullet at 1,900 feet per second (fps) for barely 2,000 foot-pounds of energy? I think not! Most such rules clearly exclude the fast .33s which, with heavy-for-caliber bullets of 250 grains and more can develop well in excess of 4,000 foot-pounds of energy. Especially with the great bullets available today, I can assure you a .338 Winchester Magnum, Remington Ultra Mag, or Lapua is plenty adequate for buffalo. The same can be said of “fast .35s” with heavy bullets, such as the .358 Norma Magnum and .350 Rigby. However, regardless of theoretical adequacy, these may not be strictly legal.

Local game laws must be followed, even if they don’t always make perfect sense, and it’s not a bad idea to factor in conventional wisdom based on generations of experience. Not all of us are even amateur ballisticians. It’s perfectly OK to consider .375 as a sensible minimum for Africa’s largest game, but you need to think “.375 H&H” level of power. Included would be the .375 Flanged Magnum (the rimmed version for doubles) and the .376 Steyr (developed around Jeff Cooper’s “big bore Scout Rifle”). Both are slower than the .375 H&H, but can approach 4,000 foot-pounds, so are certainly adequate for buffalo. Excluded would be “mild .375s” like the .375 Winchester and the old 9.5x57mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

I’m perfectly fine with considering the 9.3mm as an alternative minimum standard. But, as with the .375, it’s important to understand which 9.3mm cartridges we’re talking about. Starting around 1900, the 9.3mm (.366-inch) became a standard and popular European bullet diameter. Cartridges of the Worldlists seven 9.3mm cartridges introduced early in the twentieth century. To this list must be added the .370 Sako Magnum (European designation 9.3x66mm), introduced into the U.S. in 2008 as a joint project between Federal and Sako. Half of these eight 9.3mm cartridges should be ignored because they are mild, on the order of the .35 Remington, and unsuited for dangerous game.



This Mozambique buffalo was taken cleanly with a single 286-grain Hornady Interlock from a Sabatti 9.3x74R double. The 9.3mms are probably marginal for elephant but even this mild 9.3mm is fully adequate for hunting buffalo.

That leaves four that are viable, useful, and adequate: 9.3x62mm Mauser; 9.3x64mm Brenneke; .370 Sako Magnum; and 9.3x74R. The first three are rimless bolt-action cartridges based on the 8mm Mauser or .30-06 case and able to be housed in standard .30-06-length actions. The 9.3x74R is a long, tapered rimmed cartridge, still a common chambering in Continental double rifles. The 9.3x62mm is by far the most popular. Like many older cartridges it’s enjoying quite a comeback, readily available in Europe and loaded by both Hornady and Norma. Introduced in 1905, it was essentially developed as a bolt-action version of the 9.3x74R. The two are ballistically identical; the most common loads for both feature a 286-grain bullet at 2,360 fps, yielding 3,530 foot-pounds.

Although case capacity and shape are similar to the 9.3x62mm, the “hottest” 9.3mm is Wilhelm Brenneke’s 9.3x64mm, introduced in 1910 and based on the .30-06 case. It is much faster, propelling the same 286-grain bullet at 2,690 fps and developing 4,580 foot-pounds. In Europe it was never as popular as the 9.3x62mm and is almost unheard-of in this country. The much newer .370 Sako (9.3×66), also based on the .30-06 case, pretty much falls in between the 9.3x62mm and the 9.3x64mm Brenneke. As loaded by Federal Premium, it features a 286-grain bullet at 2,560 fps, developing 4,147 foot-pounds.

In practical terms one can figure that the .370 Sako is the equal of the .375 H&H with 300-grain bullet, while the 9.3x64mm Brenneke exceedsthe .375 H&H. The 9.3x62mm and 9.3x74R, ballistic twins, are not quite the equal of the .375 H&H. My opinion is that all the 9.3mms and.375s are very marginal for elephant but, with heavy-for-caliber solids, will provide adequate penetration. Today, however, the buffalo represents the great majority of the dangerous-game universe. The 9.3mms are definitely adequate for any and all buffalo hunting.

The 9.3x62mm Mauser is the most common and most available. As usually loaded, with a 286-grain bullet at 2,360 fps, it offers an effective and mild-recoiling alternative. An advantage over the .375 H&H is that it can be housed in a .30-06 action, offering a lighter, trimmer package.

Obviously the same can be said of the .370 Sako (9.3x66mm), except that it is loaded faster, pretty much equaling the .375 H&H and thus producing about the same recoil. In 2008 a group of us took .370 Sako rifles to Zimbabwe using Federal ammo with 286-grain Barnes Triple Shock and 286-grain Barnes Super Solids. Together we took about ten buffalo and (using the solids) a couple of tuskless elephants. Performance was awesome, no problems, so when I say it equals the .375 H&H with 300-grain bullets I’m basing it on this experience.

Exactly why the .370 Sako hasn’t taken off baffles me, but it hasn’t become nearly as popular as the old 9.3x62mm Mauser. Although possibly the best of the bunch, the 9.3x64mm Brenneke is a rare bird, especially in the U.S. On the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with mild recoil provided you have the performance. I just got a light, handy, gorgeous 9.3x62mm from the Montana Rifle Company. I’m taking it to Cameroon soon for one more (hopefully one last!) try for a dwarf forest buffalo.



Based on the .30-06 case, the .370 Sako Magnum is equal to the .375 H&H but in shorter and trimmer case. The 286-grain Barnes Triple Shock was recovered from a buffalo; the 286-grain Super Solid was recovered from an elephant, perfect performance from both.

The 9.3x74R is also not be overlooked. Continental 9.3x74R doubles are much less costly than big-bore doubles, and can be built wonderfully light. I have a Sabatti 9.3x74R double with detachable Contessa scope mount. It groups both barrels under two inches at 100 yards, making it a viable and useful 200-yard double rifle. Last year in Mozambique we got onto a herd of buffalo in miomboforest and I had a shot at a nice bull at about eighty yards, almost broadside but quartering slightly toward me. That rifle weighs just over seven pounds with scope and it bounces pretty hard! The bull took the 286-grain Interlock hard, but was gone before I could get back on him. He crashed away, then silence, and in a few seconds heard his death bellow. We found him quickly, stone dead.

One of the trackers commented, “I wasn’t sure you could kill a buffalo with that little rifle.” Having never taken a buffalo with that cartridge, I wasn’t 100 percent sure, either, but I am now!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: NitroX]
      #329477 - 19/06/19 04:38 PM

"9.3x64mm Brenneke Test Report"
Sporting Shooter September 1990


"9.3x64mm Brenneke Test Report" - Sporting Shooter September 1990 - click here
(2,728 kb)



"9.3x64mm Brenneke Test Report" - Sporting Shooter September 1990 - to continue click here
(2,728 kb)


File supplied by member "93x64mm".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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