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AZDAVE
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Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: DarylS]
      #327955 - 02/05/19 02:43 AM

I have shot more game in africa with a 9.3 (62 and 74R) that all my other calibres put together.
What one should remember is that neither the 375 or the 9.3x??? are killing calibre medium bores not a stopping calibres!!! That said the PH would rather have a 9.3 or 375 bullet in the vitals or a DG animal that a shot to the guts with any big bore.

In my opinion the 9.3 should be used my a shooter that is a very good shot and won't take a marginal shot and wait for correct shot placement in the vitals.


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DarylS
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: AZDAVE]
      #327958 - 02/05/19 02:48 AM

You are not alone in your thinking Dave.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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szihn
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: DarylS]
      #327962 - 02/05/19 06:21 AM

I got onto the 9.3 bandwagon late. I had a 375H&H when I was 22 years old and I have killed a LOT of game with it, and shot it even for varminting, just to stay proficient with it. I shot the 1st barrel out of the gun and had to re-barrel it about 15 years ago. Overall I have absolutely no criticisms of it at all. From rabbits to buffalo I have never found myself wanting more.

So when I started to use (and see used) the 9.3X62 and the 9.3X74R I was quite surprised and impressed. So far I can't say I am seeing any real difference between how these two 9.3s kill and what I have seen from my 375 for 42 years, but the 9.3 holds 2 more rounds and kicks less. Maybe on a large enough animal I could see some, but up to moose and bison I'd say they work equally well.

Now I own four 9.3s. Two 9.3X57s, one 9.3X74R and one 9.3X62.

Safe to say I have come to really like the way they work for me.

Edited by szihn (02/05/19 06:23 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: szihn]
      #327965 - 02/05/19 09:21 AM

Interesting, Steve. I had my first .375 H&H in about 1973- age 23. I had a .358 Norma Mag. at age 21, pulled the barrel and put on the 602 .375 I paid $100.00 for, unfired. My .358 bl. came off and the .375 screwed right one, sights straight up and down, headspace perfect or close enough.
Like a fool, sold it so I could build a .308 match rifle. did well, with that, though. 1st Unclassified then 1st Master in two Cross Canada Matches.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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rscott
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: DarylS]
      #328927 - 28/05/19 11:47 AM

He's wrong on two counts. Besides the error on the cartridge cases, 9.3mm is legal for dangerous game in Africa, at least in Zimbabwe. The stipulation is 5300 joules energy, which rules out all but the Brenneke Cartridge.

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DarylS
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: rscott]
      #328929 - 28/05/19 01:21 PM

5300 joules is only 3,910fpe.
Both Steve and I run 2,520fps with 286gr
In our 9.3x62's
That's well about 4,050fpe. As well, I run 2,675fps with 270s, also well over 4,000fpe but I don't know of any that aren't crap in 9.3.
These ballistics were in my Oberndorf Mauser sporter.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (28/05/19 01:23 PM)


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rscott
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: DarylS]
      #328939 - 28/05/19 09:54 PM

I got that figure from memory and tried to verify it, But Zimparks hasn't updated their website since 2017.
Zim. is actually 9.2mm, i would guess to allow the old 360 nitro cartridge.
there are other countries with no requirements at all if I remember correctly. Mozambique, Ethiopia, Benin and a couple others.
Another case of a writer having to produce 2500 words to get paid.


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Ripp
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: rscott]
      #328960 - 29/05/19 09:09 AM

Zimbabwe
• Class A Game
5300 Joule
Minimum caliber 9.2mm in diameter
(Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo)
• Class B Game
4300 Joule
Minimum caliber 7.0mm in diameter
(Lion, Giraffe, Eland)
• Class C Game
3000 Joule
Minimum caliber 7.0mm in diameter
(Leopard, Crocodile, Kudu, Oryx / Gemsbok, Hartebeest, Wildebeest, Zebra, Nyala, Sable Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, etc.)
• Class D Game
850 Joule
Minimum caliber 5.56mm in diameter
(Warthog, Impala, Reedbuck, Sitatunga, Duiker, Steenbok, Jackal, Game Birds, etc.)
• Black Powder Rifles
Minimum caliber .40

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #328961 - 29/05/19 09:10 AM

Benin
• There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Benin.
• Benin does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Botswana
• The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Botswana is .222 caliber for any game other than dangerous game.
• The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Botswana is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting.
• The maximum equipment allowed for rifle hunting in Botswana is .577 Nitro Express caliber.
• Botswana does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Burkina Faso
• There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Burkina Faso.
• Burkina Faso does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Cameroon
• For Group 1 - Small Game, the equipment requirement for hunting is .240 caliber or less, shotgun may be used as well.
• For Group 2 - Medium Game, the equipment requirement for hunting is .240 to .354 caliber.
• For Group 3 - Big Game, the equipment requirement for hunting is .354 caliber or larger.
• Cameroon does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Central African Republic
• The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Central African Republic is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting.
• Central African Republic does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Ethiopia
• There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Ethiopia.
• Ethiopia does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Mozambique
• There is no minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Mozambique.
• Mozambique does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Namibia
• Smallest caliber allowed 7 mm (.284).
• Minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity)
• Big Game
5400 Joule
(Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, etc.)
• Large Game
2700 Joule
(Greater Kudu, Cape Eland, Oryx / Gemsbok, Red Hartebeest, Blue Wildebeest, Black Wildebeest, Hartmann's Zebra, Burchell's Zebra, Giraffe, Sable Antelope, Roan Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, Leopard, etc.)
• Medium to Small Game
1350 Joule
(Springbok, Impala, Blesbok, Gray Duiker, Steenbok, Ostrich, Caracal, Black-Faced Impala, Red Lechwe, Damara Dik-Dik, Klipspringer, Black-Backed Jackal, Warthog, Cheetah, Nyala, Chacma Baboon, Game Birds, etc.)

South Africa
• Most provinces do not have a minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting and rely on common sense.
• Some provinces require a minimum of .375 caliber for dangerous or big game hunting.
• No provinces require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Tanzania
• The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Tanzania is .240 caliber for any game other than dangerous game.
• The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Tanzania is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting.
• Tanzania does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Zambia
• Zambia does not have a minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting plains game and rely on common sense. Caliber in the .270 range will be well suited for some of the smaller plains game in Zambia.
• The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Zambia is .300 caliber for dangerous game such as Leopard and Lion.
• The minimum equipment requirement for rifle hunting in Zambia is .375 caliber for dangerous game or big game hunting such as Elephant, Buffalo and Hippo.
• Zambia does not require a minimum energy (Eo - muzzle velocity) for calibers used.

Zimbabwe
• Class A Game
5300 Joule
Minimum caliber 9.2mm in diameter
(Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo)
• Class B Game
4300 Joule
Minimum caliber 7.0mm in diameter
(Lion, Giraffe, Eland)
• Class C Game
3000 Joule
Minimum caliber 7.0mm in diameter
(Leopard, Crocodile, Kudu, Oryx / Gemsbok, Hartebeest, Wildebeest, Zebra, Nyala, Sable Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, etc.)
• Class D Game
850 Joule
Minimum caliber 5.56mm in diameter
(Warthog, Impala, Reedbuck, Sitatunga, Duiker, Steenbok, Jackal, Game Birds, etc.)
• Black Powder Rifles
Minimum caliber .40

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #328962 - 29/05/19 09:11 AM

Joules conversion to ft-lbs

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/joules-to-foot-pounds-conversion.html

5300 Joule
3909 ft-lbs

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #328964 - 29/05/19 09:26 AM

The program app I have on my phone is Unit Converter.
It is handy for everything from:

area,
cooking,
digital storage,
energy,
fuel consumption,
length/distance,
mass/weight,
power,
pressure,
speed,
temperature,
time,
torque &
volume.

I have found it to be an excellent app.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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rscott
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: DarylS]
      #328967 - 29/05/19 12:11 PM

Quote:

5300 joules is only 3,910fpe.
Both Steve and I run 2,520fps with 286gr
In our 9.3x62's
That's well about 4,050fpe. As well, I run 2,675fps with 270s, also well over 4,000fpe but I don't know of any that aren't crap in 9.3.
These ballistics were in my Oberndorf Mauser sporter.




That's pretty impressive velocity for a 62!
Highest velocity I've seen in published data is ~2400 FPS with a 26" bl. I would be curious to see pressure figures for your loads at 2520 FPS.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #328972 - 29/05/19 06:33 PM

Thanks for the info RIPP. Interesting how many countries have no requirement at all.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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DarylS
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #328978 - 30/05/19 12:57 AM

rscott - according to kwk.us/pressures.html site:
CIP states:

9.3x62 57 psi(pezio) 49 (copper crusher cip/cup)

According to other cartridges of this type, US made such as the .338/06IMP and .270 Winchester, the allowable pressure is 65,000psi, thus I/we are not restricted to 1925 pressure limitations imposed by Euro law. At that site, there are no SAAMI "standards" (not law) applied to this round.

I do not know what the pressures are, however, I still using brass I made for this calibre and rifle, back in 1982. It has been shot at least 8, perhaps 10 times and I am still using it, primer pockets still tight.

As to case capacity, I measured mine at 78gr. water for Fed and RP brass and 80gr. for WW, using .30/06 brass, as well as a couple factory cases from Sako I have that were fired in a Styer rifle in moose camp. Both these rifles have .454" shoulders and .474" bases.
This is the same capacity as my .375/06IMP, made with an arch reamer, I think, due to it's .460" shoulder and .471" base.

I agree, knowing what the pressures ACTUALLY are, would indeed be interesting. The ballistics I am getting out of my .375/06IMP are rather startling as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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dotchicco
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: DarylS]
      #329385 - 15/06/19 01:51 AM

Good Afternoon,
Always interestig to read about my dear 9,3.
I own all three the bad children.. x62, x74R, and last but not least x64.
Hard to say what's my favourite, probably the pestiferous x64.
I started using a double in 9,3x74R and immediately i falled in love with the caliber. As many other times, i tryied to improve it, using better powders, better bullets, but in the end the philosophy is the same: heavy soft bullet, mild velocity, terrible penetration, wide wound, game on the floor. Probably the two thing that surpised me more were its simplicity (works well with any bullet, heavy or light, hard or soft) and that litterally digests any kind of powder with always the same good result. Really a work horse. Easy to reload, easy to shot, rarely requires a follow shot.
After this experience i found a nice CZ full stock at an armory.
I took it without many hopes... i know how squeamish the stutzen can be. And that short barrel made me think bad... Instead that nice light rifle, that could seem a toy, is an hammer.
It prefer light bullets, but shot well also heavy. I have developed a superb load with ks bullet, and i have used it on light framed game, (roe deer) and bigger game (boars and deers)
Always impressive. I do not have experience with african big game, but every 9.3 user just talk well about it.
Last winter i found (finally!) a Mauser Europa in 9,3x64. It was new! the gun smith told me that the old owner ( now 70 years old ) used it on two safarys, and then left it in the blind for decades.
The bolt face had no signs, the barrel seems to be virgin. Probably has shot 30/40 bullets... Well, i started looking for the perfect load... first choice was the H mantel bullet, really accurate and constant. Then i tryied teilmantel, KS, and Woodleight 250 bullets. Everytime i had good accuracy, with light, medium and heavy load.
The most impressive thing is the extreme flexibility of this caliber. You can easily obtain x74R velocity, or pass to a mild charge duplicating x62 performance, or increase the energy, reaching more then 6000 joule of energy (in this case i found the RS60 is the standard to beat).
RWS has recently released a new ammunition with lead free 180 grains bullet (evo green), with the same ballistic of the 8x68S with H mantel. This could make this outstanding caliber even more usefull for light game at long range.
It's really a shame that nowadays no one gunmaker (except Voere) still has this caliber in catalogue.
Excuse this long digression... but as you can understand i'm a big fan of theese three fine calibers...
Doc

Edited by dotchicco (15/06/19 02:19 AM)


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93x64mm
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: dotchicco]
      #329387 - 15/06/19 05:58 AM

Hit the nail right on the head there Doc!
Terrible shame that the 9.3x64 is the forgotten child when it comes to being chambered in rifles.
Not wrong about its versatility, I have a reduced .444 equivalent load that shoots very accurately - bores straight thru pigs end to end!
The full loads are certainly another big step up from that.
Glad to have you on board Doc!
93x64mm


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tophet1
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: DarylS]
      #329389 - 15/06/19 01:32 PM

9.3x62 is excellent for the largest soft skin (plains) game but I wouldn't rely on it for DG if I ever had the opportunity.

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Ripp
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Posts: 16072
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: tophet1]
      #329398 - 15/06/19 11:49 PM

Greatest Cartridges: 9.3Χ62 Mauser, Effective on About Everything

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloadin...bout-everything

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #329399 - 15/06/19 11:53 PM


THE 9.3Χ64 BRENNEKE, GERMANY’S ANSWER TO THE 375 HOLLAND AND HOLLAND MAGNUM

https://revivaler.com/the-9-3x64-brenneke-germanys-answer-to-the-375-holland-and-holland-magnum/

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Postman
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #329401 - 16/06/19 03:58 AM

The .366 caliber cartridges are excellent!!! I love my .375 H&H and the .375 Flanged Magnum, but I love them no more (nor less than) the 9.3 x74R...... They are all excellent hunting cartridges, but I still prefer to step up just a little in power for DG hunting. Call me what you will, but I’d rather pile on a bit more power and be accused of “compensating for something”, rather than being stomped and gored into a puddle of bloody mud by a pissed off big dangerous animal.

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Ripp
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Postman]
      #329402 - 16/06/19 05:21 AM

I see Sako still makes 9.3x62 and 9.3x66...

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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dotchicco
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #329403 - 16/06/19 07:25 AM

All european gun maker have 9,3x62 or 9,3x74R in theyr catalogue.
But only voere still produces 9,3x64.
And of course a lot of gun craftmens .
9,3x66 is a strange thing.. It was intended, maybe, to fill the gap between x64 and x62.. But it's only chambered in sako and tikka rifle, only in short barrels, Max 56 cm...

Way the hell?

Edited by dotchicco (16/06/19 07:28 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: dotchicco]
      #329410 - 17/06/19 12:15 AM

Quote:

All european gun maker have 9,3x62 or 9,3x74R in theyr catalogue.
But only voere still produces 9,3x64.
And of course a lot of gun craftmens .
9,3x66 is a strange thing.. It was intended, maybe, to fill the gap between x64 and x62.. But it's only chambered in sako and tikka rifle, only in short barrels, Max 56 cm...

Way the hell?




Makes no sense to me either... who knows the reasoning.. ???

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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szihn
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: Ripp]
      #329415 - 17/06/19 10:16 AM

The 9.3X64 is superb, but I expect US Gun makers do not make any because they believe (maybe rightfully) that the 9.3X64 would never sell sitting next to a 375H&H.

I think they are wrong, but I have to admit, it would be a gamble. The ammo makers (and brass makers) are probably the real issue here. Most of the existing US made rifles can be easily reworked to feed the big 9.3, so the guns are not a problem, but getting someone to commit to tool up for the cases may be a gamble they just do not want to take. The logic would run something like this:

The 375 does it all, and has done so very well on the US market since Winchester first chambered it in their M70. So to get the same performance in a new-to-our-market cartridge is not worth the gamble.

Still I like the big 9.3 because it does what the 375 will do, and can be made to hold 1-2 more rounds in the mag and requires less work to modify an action and bolt fact to use it too. I have used the 375 a lot, and I have zero bad to say about it. So saying another shell will give the same results is very high praise in my mind.
I have seen the 9.3X62 used quite a few times in the last 8-9 years and I have shot a few round myself from that shell, and I have personally used the 9.3X74R a lot more, and seen excellent results when I use good bullets. The 9.3X64 beats both of these shells by about 100-200 FPS, so again, given bullet that will not shatter, I am 100% sure it would be excellent because to be perfectly frank, I can't see a lot of difference in the kills from a 375H&H, a 9.3X62 and a 9.3X74R, so I see no reason the 9.3X64 would not be as good.

Edited by szihn (17/06/19 10:19 AM)


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dotchicco
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Re: The 9.3, not the .375 shld be min. caliber for African DG [Re: szihn]
      #329420 - 17/06/19 10:20 PM

Quote:


I have seen the 9.3X62 used quite a few times in the last 8-9 years and I have shot a few round myself from that shell, and I have personally used the 9.3X74R a lot more, and seen excellent results when I use good bullets. The 9.3X64 beats both of these shells by about 100-200 FPS, so again, given bullet that will not shatter, I am 100% sure it would be excellent because to be perfectly frank, I can't see a lot of difference in the kills from a 375H&H, a 9.3X62 and a 9.3X74R, so I see no reason the 9.3X64 would not be as good.




I'd add that .366 bullet has higher bc and better sectional density, for the same weight.
So considering that today powders have increased 9,3x64 energy at a superior level (6000 joule) that today bullets are comfortable with high velocity (A frame, woodleight PP and solids, oryx and many monolithics ) that all the weapons around chambering the old brenneke's beast are high quality gun, ( while .375 H& H often are low price with poor ergonomy and lightweight)
We can assure that today it's absolutely superior if compared to 1950's .375 performance.
I Think that only using the 9,3x64 a shooter can really understand its value.
Doc


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