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Ash
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: 375Brno]
      #268775 - 30/07/15 10:14 PM

So who wants to bag Jericho?

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: 375Brno]
      #268777 - 30/07/15 10:55 PM

Quote:

Well said by Ivan Carter.
If the appropriate courts find these guys guilty then throw the book at them.
Again if they are guilty, this incident has made it worse for all responsible hunters and shooters.
Rick


Apparently this hunter has been guilty of game violations before

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #268779 - 30/07/15 11:26 PM

I think the misinformation the popular media puts out is a disservice and one must sort through the bullshit and propaganda to get to the truth.

Now that sane persons like Ant Williams of African Hunter magazine have written about it, it makes a lot of sense. And the confusion is explained.

* Interesting the property and the black landowner is the result of farm invasions. I wondered about this as I know from personal experience the Gwayi Valley properties being taken over illegally by "warvets" and after that the land being given to Mugabe cronies. As such any client hunting through these illegal "landowners" and knowingly doing it, well I reserve my comments on the opinion of these persons. It is illegal for an American to do so as well, isn't it?

* It seems evident the outfitter and the landowner could not have had lion permits as there is no lion quota for the Gwayi Concession per reports. Therefore it appears the taking of this lion was poaching. And that is why the two guys are in court.

* The comments by them that they had permits comes from the corrupt Zimbabwean practice of swapping areas for permits after a lion has been taken. The outfitter allegedly made some comment about this.

* The PH or outfitter may have made a attempt to destroy the collar as is alleged as it prevents the swapping of areas for permits.

* "Luring" a lion by baiting outside the Park is legal

* Takng a lion with a collar and which has strayed outside the Park is legal.

* Shooting a lion with a "name" which has featured in a study and been filmed does not make a wild lion in a park "tame".

* A thirteen year old lion which has lost its pride is not long for the world.

* The American client, well it is hard to believe he was not aware of some of the above. Considering some of his part history.


The whole bad and sorry incident is being used by anti-hunters to put lion safari hunting under a lot of pressure and in fact pushes to end all African trophy hunting which is quite ridiculous and African gov'ts won't do this.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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mckinney
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268793 - 31/07/15 05:37 AM

I hate to see the anti-hunting people with a nice juicy story to jump on. I also hate the proliferation of social media shaming that we have now. Of course none of these people know anything about hunting, lions, or any other damn thing. And if it's cruelty to animals they oppose, perhaps they ought to target zoos.

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Cazadero
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: mckinney]
      #268815 - 31/07/15 01:02 PM

The scumbag operators and the douchebag "hunters" are out there gentlemen.

Let's not pretend that they aren't.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #268820 - 31/07/15 10:44 PM

The highly influential think tank, the Brookings Institution at Stanford University, has endorsed trophy hunting as a emans of conservation in Africa. That said, the Obama junta is already talking about banning lion and leopard trophies like it did elephant trophies, and it might disregard even the Democrat / left of center Brookings recommendations. This will affect US hunters, and, consequently, hunters in other countries tat usually follow the US lead.

I am not denying that there are unscrupulous hunt operators, but this does not seem to be one such. And, no matter how ethically we hunters enjoy our sport, the antis will always be there to distort and vilify hunters and the sport that they enjoy. Even when an institution in the Bluest of the Blue state of California endorses trophy hunting.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

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DarylS
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #268822 - 01/08/15 12:41 AM

This was just sent to me.

http://usanews.co/whos-really-respon...wildlife-time/

Who's Really Responsible For the Killing of Zimbabwe's Lions and Other Wildlife? – TIME

The world’s anger at hunter Walter Palmer is understandable but misplaced

Earlier this month, a 55-year-old American dentist named Walter Palmer went on a safari holiday in western Zimbabwe, where, over a 40-hour period, he maimed, cautiously tracked, and finally killed a lion. Palmer, a veteran big-game hunter, insists that he had secured the necessary hunting permits, unaware at the time that his target was the most famous lion in Africa.Hwange National Park is Zimbabwe’s oldest and largest wildlife reserve, and the lion Palmer killed was its star attraction. It even had a name: Cecil. For killing Cecil, Palmer has become a figure of global hate, and the lion depicted not so much as a bloodthirsty killer himself but a sort of cuddly mascot, who would affably tag alongside caravans of delighted tourists. ‪#‎CeciltheLion‬ was a top trending topic on Google and Twitter around the world throughout Tuesday—although nobody seemed to notice that he bore the same first name as the now reviled British adventurer and colonizer Sir Cecil Rhodes, who founded the white settler state of Rhodesia, as Zimbabwe was formerly known, and whose statue was recently pulled down in Cape Town.The press has obligingly cast Palmer as a leering sadist and gone to great lengths to unearth alleged past wrongdoing unrelated to his hunting hobby. Prominent journalist Piers Morgan said that he wanted to hunt “fat, greedy, selfish, murderous businessmen like Dr Palmer” (who is nether fat nor a businessman) and then “skin him alive” and “cut his head from his neck.” Sharon Osbourne tweeted of her hope that he “loses his home, his practice & his money” (before noting “He has already lost his soul”). Cara Delevingne called him “a poor excuse of a human being.”The Yelp page of Palmer’s Minnesota dental practice has meanwhile become a catalog of ad hominem attacks. “Brought my lion here for dentistry and was horrified by the result,” one user wrote. “All kidding aside, I hope you die painfully.”Faced with a shrieking, global witch-hunt of this magnitude, Palmer, understandably, has mostly been incommunicado since the maelstrom began, but as repulsive as his hobby may be to many, it is indisputable that tourists such as him are not the real reason Zimbabwe’s precious wildlife is being decimated. To understand that, one has to look at the ruinous land management policies practiced by the Mugabe regime over the past 15 years.

It is no accident that one of the two men who accompanied the dentist on the safari, and who have now been arrested, was a farmer (the other was a professional hunter hired by Palmer as a guide). State wildlife officials claim that Honest Trymore Ndlovu helped lured the lion off the wildlife reserve and onto his property, Antoinette Farm, where the beast was killed.Why would he do such a thing? Perhaps because he is a farmer in a country where agriculture is an industry of destitution. Zimbabwe was once celebrated as the “Breadbasket of Africa,” whose fertile earth supplied the world with abundant tobacco, corn, and wheat. Today, 76 percent of its rural population lives in abject poverty, dependent on foreign food aid and desperate measures—such as the poaching of the wildlife that inhabits its otherwise barren lands, or rendering assistance to those want to hunt or poach.In 2000, Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe enacted a disastrous land reform policy. Farms were divided up and nationalized and many plots were handed out to generals and ministers. Thousands of white land owners were violently evicted from their farms, which were then parceled into smallholdings and given to black Zimbabweans. The destruction of property rights led to a disintegrating economy and widespread poverty. Poaching—to feed the insatiable demand for rhino horn and ivory in China and other parts of Asia—became rife and much of the wildlife in Zimbabwe was simply wiped out.Until 2000 Zimbabwe had a successful wildlife management program, with many big game animals flourishing. But by 2003, a staggering 80 percent of the animals that had lived on Zimbabwean safari camps (which employed firm quotas to regulate animal population sizes) had died. By 2007, there were only 14 private game farms in the country, compared to 620 prior to the land seizures of 2000, according to a National Geographic report. With the protection of private game reserves nearly nonexistent, once-abundant wildlife began dying off, hunted by desperate farmers with no other options for sustenance.

Despite passing harsher laws for poachers in 2011 illegal hunting in Zimbabwe is big business. Poaching syndicates earn hundreds of thousands of dollars exporting ivory and animal skins. Many conservationists believe allowing the community to reap the benefits of wildlife management—by, ironically, running the sorts of safaris on which Palmer shot his lion—will help curb illegal poaching. But it is impossible to have that debate while the world brays for the ruin of a lone Minnesotan dentist, and fails to criticize a regime whose policies were responsible for the almost complete extinction of Zimbabwean wildlife in the first place.

This entry passed through the Full-Text RSS service – if this is your content and you’re reading it on someone else’s site, please read the FAQ at fivefilters.org/content-only/faq.php#publishers

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mckinney
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: DarylS]
      #268827 - 01/08/15 04:17 AM

So, Zimbabwe wants the hunter extradited. The whole thing is such a crock of excrement that I am not able to speak rationally about it.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: mckinney]
      #268832 - 01/08/15 05:25 AM

The FBI has an APB out on Palmer right now . The FBI has confiscated all of Palmers weapons and are now after him.

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xausa
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #268895 - 02/08/15 09:42 PM

Suprising article in the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery...-lions/?hpid=z9

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: xausa]
      #268896 - 02/08/15 09:57 PM

Quote:

Suprising article in the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery...-lions/?hpid=z9


Well thought out and written article . I of course am not an expert but I hate to see hunters ;of which I am one , maligned like what is happening with this Cecil business . They are treating Palmer like a terrorist

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (02/08/15 09:58 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #268899 - 03/08/15 01:18 AM

Yes- that was a descent article.

“It’s frustrating to see vast press coverage on the shooting (albeit repugnant) of one aged lion, while thousands are poisoned, speared and snared every year and no one pays any attention,” says Frank. “Like everyone else in this business, I am beyond sick of the hunting debate and wish there were some way to focus public outrage on the issues that really matter.”

"A poor, rural farmer, for whom cows are cash, is a harder figure to demonize than a Minnesota dentist with a bow and arrow, but this character needs equal attention. He and his family live alongside wild animals, and lions can get nasty."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: DarylS]
      #268920 - 03/08/15 01:15 PM

Tyrone Simoneau

For everyone that is/was "concerned" about the lion situation that has been blown out of proportion by social media. Read up. This is an email that my parents sent me. (They are in Africa right now).


Many of you have read or heard the news of the collared lion that has been shot here in Africa. Greg and I are in Zimbabwe, hunting with clients, at the camp of the very man that is being accused of "slaughtering a protected lion".
I would just like to clarify a few facts.

Firstly, yes, the lion was collared but that does not mean protected the hunting concession we are on borders the park-- no fences, no gates, no wires. These animals are free to roam and cross into the areas surrounding the park at will. It is a given that when any animal is out of the designated boundaries of the park and in a hunting concession, it is fair game. Collared animals are shot by hunters once in a while and the law states that nothing has been done illegally, just that the collar is to be returned to the National Parks office.

Secondly, this lion was not lured out of the park by guts being dragged or calls being made. There was an elephant carcass, that died of natural causes, 2 1/2 km out of the parks boundary. The Professional Hunter (PH) and his hunter had seen a lion on the carcass so set up a blind to hunt that evening. The collared lion was the one that came in. No one realized the animal was collared until after it was harvested. The collar was returned to Parks, as is the procedure. It is unfortunate that this lion is a frequently photographed one in the parks as I believe that is why it has made national news. That, and the fact that it has a name..... Cecil.

Theo Bronkhorst has been threatened and dragged over the coals on this one. His family is being harassed and the Facebook comments have been horrendous. One in particular. "let me guess...this fed a village".

Here's where I'd like to explain something. Feeding the village is a phrase that is always taken in the literal sense. Yes, the meat of any animal is shared with the people but it's more than that. Here's how it works.

Every hunting concession has a native game scout appointed. This scout must accompany the PH and his hunters to be sure that nothing is shot that is not on quota.....quota meaning that only so many of one species can be taken during the year. This is recorded very officially in a ledger. Every animal has a trophy fee. This is divided up to the outfitter, the village and the government. The village gets their share of the meat.

Now this is where Theo makes a difference. With the money, he has helped the people dig wells, pipe water and supplied tanks to their houses so they don't have to walk long distances to carry it. They have larger gardens now because of it, not to mention running water. He has built schools. He's helped put in solar panels so they have power. I have seen satellite dishes on some homes so I know they have tv. It is all this that is included in the phrase ' feed the village'.

I believe so many people do not understand hunting. They only see killing. Without hunting there is no conservation. Theo and his family are conservationists. They are not poachers. Everything done in the taking of this lion was done with professionalism. The hunter was legally licensed, the outfitter/PH, Theo, was licensed to legally hunt in that area.

It is disgusting to me how there is so much to-do about this one lion but nothing is said about the man who was killed just 2 nights ago by an elephant in the village of the scout who rides in the truck with us everyday. A human life was taken and it is not mentioned. We should be more concerned about Masugo and his family than Cecil. It is unfair that no one feels sorry for Masugo....nor for the hunter and PH that have been falsely accused of a crime they did not commit.

Please share this with as many people as you can so the real story also gets revealed. It surprises us that organizations like Dallas Club and Safari Club International (SCI), who's slogan is 'first for hunters', have not become involved to investigate and stand behind a fellow hunter. Let us all, as hunters, stand together.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #268922 - 03/08/15 08:49 PM

Quote:

It is no accident that one of the two men who accompanied the dentist on the safari, and who have now been arrested, was a farmer (the other was a professional hunter hired by Palmer as a guide). State wildlife officials claim that Honest Trymore Ndlovu helped lured the lion off the wildlife reserve and onto his property, Antoinette Farm, where the beast was killed.Why would he do such a thing? Perhaps because he is a farmer in a country where agriculture is an industry of destitution. Zimbabwe was once celebrated as the “Breadbasket of Africa,” whose fertile earth supplied the world with abundant tobacco, corn, and wheat. Today, 76 percent of its rural population lives in abject poverty, dependent on foreign food aid and desperate measures—such as the poaching of the wildlife that inhabits its otherwise barren lands, or rendering assistance to those want to hunt or poach.In 2000, Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe enacted a disastrous land reform policy. Farms were divided up and nationalized and many plots were handed out to generals and ministers. Thousands of white land owners were violently evicted from their farms, which were then parceled into smallholdings and given to black Zimbabweans. The destruction of property rights led to a disintegrating economy and widespread poverty. Poaching—to feed the insatiable demand for rhino horn and ivory in China and other parts of Asia—became rife and much of the wildlife in Zimbabwe was simply wiped out.Until 2000 Zimbabwe had a successful wildlife management program, with many big game animals flourishing. But by 2003, a staggering 80 percent of the animals that had lived on Zimbabwean safari camps (which employed firm quotas to regulate animal population sizes) had died. By 2007, there were only 14 private game farms in the country, compared to 620 prior to the land seizures of 2000, according to a National Geographic report. With the protection of private game reserves nearly nonexistent, once-abundant wildlife began dying off, hunted by desperate farmers with no other options for sustenance.




From the article posted by Daryl.

Is the writer of that article so thick he does not realise that "Honest" Ndlovu is exactly one of those corrupt black farmers who received stolen farms, game farms stolen off the legal white owners?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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larcher
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268926 - 04/08/15 02:30 AM



Spot on John.

All the pandemonium is coming from this Honest Trymore (What a name?). He's well heeled to have got a stolen ranch. In my opinion, it's current procedure, the so called vets, to share tags whenever one is desired, even if it's again the law.
My second enigma, where is the scout?
My final guess, quite a few Honest Trymore are Park rangers, and now You can imagine the tremendous trafficking between these "honest" people.

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"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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Cazadero
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: DarylS]
      #268936 - 04/08/15 10:12 PM

Quote:

it is indisputable that tourists such as him [Palmer] are not the real reason Zimbabwe’s precious wildlife is being decimated. To understand that, one has to look at the ruinous land management policies practiced by the Mugabe regime over the past 15 years.

and

it is impossible to have that debate while the world brays for the ruin of a lone Minnesotan dentist, and fails to criticize a regime whose policies were responsible for the almost complete extinction of Zimbabwean wildlife in the first place.




I thought it was a well written article and I hope it was published this way, even though it's so long that many people probably won't read it. One important detail that was omitted {as was pointed out} was the lack of definition of the word "Farmer" which doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning across the ocean.

While the knee-jerk reaction of the masses will continue to ignore realities of the debate (like Kenya's performance since it banned hunting) the hunters and sportsmen's community must not be drawn in to the same tunnel vision basis of thought.

We as outdoorsmen don't need to convince each other of very much as regards this argument. What we need is to be able to present a rational approach to thought process when it comes to conservation, hunting and fishing, and the ability to self-police as regards choices that might fall within the boundaries of legality while remaining questionable as regards ethics.

Anyone who has been hunting in [wild] Africa and who has also visited a game park will probably attest to the fact that the animals do not behave the same. That being said, park animals are by no means tame, but are well conditioned to the presence of vehicles and humans. It is highly doubtful that between the landowner, the guide, the client, and even the farmhands, that no one was possibly aware of the possibility that they were going to shoot a tourist favorite parks lion.

Was it legal? Maybe.

Was it a good idea? Obviously not.

As regards the question of legality - anytime you have to repeatedly defend an action by pointing out that it was legal usually indicates a last line of defense to an argument.

As for Zimbabwe wanting to extradite the hunter, that of course is a joke.

Whatever the truth of the whole story, severe damage has been done to the safari community.


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Cazadero
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: larcher]
      #268937 - 04/08/15 10:15 PM

Quote:

where is the scout?




Good point that hasn't yet been brought up.

Do hunts on {private} land in Zim require a game scout?


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Cazadero
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Cazadero]
      #268939 - 04/08/15 10:23 PM


Airlines ban hunters' big-game 'trophies' after uproar over Cecil the lion

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fli...y-ban/31090331/




At least it's good news for South African Airlines.


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Ripp
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Cazadero]
      #268941 - 04/08/15 11:54 PM



--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Cazadero]
      #268943 - 05/08/15 12:05 AM

Quote:


Airlines ban hunters' big-game 'trophies' after uproar over Cecil the lion

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fli...y-ban/31090331/




At least it's good news for South African Airlines.




It's amazing to me, a lion is shot and people here in the US go wild..yet every day as has now been proven, a human fetus is pulled apart and sold for parts and the crowd goes silent...we lived in a world that has seriously lost it's direction in so many ways...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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xausa
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Ripp]
      #268946 - 05/08/15 04:14 AM



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Ripp
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Cazadero]
      #268965 - 05/08/15 11:29 PM

Quote:


Airlines ban hunters' big-game 'trophies' after uproar over Cecil the lion

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fli...y-ban/31090331/




At least it's good news for South African Airlines.




Read this morning UPS stated they were NOT bowing to pressure and would continue shipments...at least someone still has a sack in today's world...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Ripp]
      #268968 - 05/08/15 11:46 PM

http://dscnewscenter.org/2015/08/dsc-calls-for-lifting-of-air-freight-bans-on-hunted-trophies/

--------------------
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mckinney
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Ripp]
      #268970 - 06/08/15 12:28 AM

I doubt the airline ban will affect much of anything other than the airlines' pocketbooks. Most people traveling from the US to Africa will choose S. African airlines or one of the Gulf carriers like Qatar Airlines or Emirates. Connections in the gulf are excellent, weather is always reliable, and these airlines are simply worlds ahead of all US carriers on pricing, comfort, food, number of destinations, etc. The only issue might be a small domestic connection on the return flight, but the trophies could be offloaded and delivered from the entry airport. Moreover, anyone with the resources and know how to put together an African safari will have no difficulty dealing with a piddling little trifle such as this.

That is what Dallas Safari Club probably wanted to say.


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larcher
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: mckinney]
      #268973 - 06/08/15 05:22 AM

Quote:

I doubt the airline ban will affect much of anything other than the airlines' pocketbooks. Most people traveling from the US to Africa will choose S. African airlines or one of the Gulf carriers like Qatar Airlines or Emirates. Connections in the gulf are excellent, weather is always reliable, and these airlines are simply worlds ahead of all US carriers on pricing, comfort, food, number of destinations, etc. The only issue might be a small domestic connection on the return flight, but the trophies could be offloaded and delivered from the entry airport. Moreover, anyone with the resources and know how to put together an African safari will have no difficulty dealing with a piddling little trifle such as this.

That is what Dallas Safari Club probably wanted to say.




good post

If airlines get compasional, so be it. So far we have a decent choice airwayswise. Let the fool advertize, and then quite a lot of companies are happy with hunters' booking. I take it as a good lesson about emotionally fragile companies.
Now we can know who are our friends.

all this fuck up is about EMOTION

in french emotion is emotion too.

I don't want to elaborate on SCI, but so far so good.

Edited by larcher (06/08/15 05:25 AM)


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