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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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Well_Well_Well
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Loc: Australia
Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Rule303]
      #228935 - 17/04/13 08:15 PM

The article (thanks for the link Even) indicates that Bell really liked the 308 and the use of homogenous solids over lead core bullets to reduce the tendency to bend on striking bone.

The article was from 1952. When did mono metal bullets appear?

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #228947 - 17/04/13 11:52 PM



If I remember correctly, the French round 8mm Lebel had turned projectiles.


.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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Yochanan
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #228958 - 18/04/13 04:35 AM

"Balle D", adopted in 1898, was a solid bullet...so much for novelty.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Yochanan]
      #228968 - 18/04/13 07:11 AM

In an excellent article recently, by our Mr. Shoemaker, on rifles used in Alaska, he pointed out that in 1885 a military reconnaissance mission into the Copper River area found the natives using copper bullets in their muzzle loaders. They preferred the penetration and the way they broke through bone.

I think the practice has been around a while.

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Kano
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Reged: 09/07/03
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228986 - 18/04/13 02:26 PM

"An inspiring little rifle, requiring knowledge of anatomy and exact pointing"

Knowledge of anatomy does not mean "knowing what's the general area you ought to shoot into", it means having an exact and precise knowledge of how the animal is built, and where the various organs are positioned in relation to each other and in relation to the external features. It also requires good 3D mental imaging skills, the aptitude to "see" what's inside the animal at all angles.

How many hunters do actually meet such requirements, especially on African game?

--------------------
Philip

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grandveneur
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Kano]
      #229003 - 19/04/13 03:31 AM

Quote:

"An inspiring little rifle, requiring knowledge of anatomy and exact pointing"

Knowledge of anatomy does not mean "knowing what's the general area you ought to shoot into", it means having an exact and precise knowledge of how the animal is built, and where the various organs are positioned in relation to each other and in relation to the external features. It also requires good 3D mental imaging skills, the aptitude to "see" what's inside the animal at all angles.

How many hunters do actually meet such requirements, especially on African game?



I hope all hunters ! That's the first condition for big game hunting !

http://www.amazon.de/Perfect-Shot-Placem...he+perfect+shot

This books are sold all over the galaxy !

Edited by grandveneur (19/04/13 03:38 AM)

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: grandveneur]
      #229010 - 19/04/13 05:09 AM

You would think so, wouldn't you? I'm betting some of our PH friends could tell some ugly stories though :/ Poor marksmanship and knowledge of killing anatomy seem to be the two biggest complaints.

I think the Perfect Shot books, and the Scandinavian "Moose Clock" are fantastic ideas. A lot of people just have no sense of spatial relativity.

I'm thinking that our Mr. Bell had that attribute in spades, considering the "Bell Shot".

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albertan
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #230208 - 19/05/13 06:07 PM

There were several reasons that Bell used small bores in favour of the more conventional big bores:

He carried his own rifle. Bell put on many miles a day in hot conditions and a heavier load would have prevented him with putting on those extra miles.

Many of the solids used in the big bores were not up to the job. The jackets split and pealed. Penetration was not a sure thing.

As he got into the herds he would shoot a large volume of ammunition taking large numbers of elephant.
This would not be possible with a big bore double.

He stated that the 7 mm Mauser, aka, the .275 Rigby, with DWM ammunition was the only cartridge that never failed to go bang, always penetrated, or never suffered from split necks ( poor annealing was apparently a big problem in those days). Every other calibre and brand had given him problems at one time or another.

He often has a gun bearer with him who carried along a big double for emergencies. I believe it was a .450 Nitro Express. He mentioned this in one of his books. They are all a great read.

There will only ever be one W.D.M. Bell. They broke the mould.

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grandveneur
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: albertan]
      #230215 - 19/05/13 07:54 PM

Nothing justified the use of a small bore cartridge to hunt big game especially elefants as well at this time !

What Bell has done is doubtful and not exemplary !

I don't understand the veneration of this men !

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: grandveneur]
      #230220 - 19/05/13 09:26 PM



If a bloke tries it once and survives, he's a lucky fool.

If a bloke does it successfully 1000+ times, he is extremely talented and has nuts the size of mangos.


.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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grandveneur
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #230222 - 19/05/13 11:16 PM

It's impossible that everything went well in 1000 cases !

How many wounded and missing elefants in the bush ?

Hunting and animals ethics was not a question at this time . The reason why i don't like this person !

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: grandveneur]
      #230223 - 19/05/13 11:40 PM


grand

"Hunting and animals ethics was not a question at this time . The reason why i don't like this person ! "

You can't apply modern ethics to that era.
A lot of things were different then, including and
especially the number of game taken in a day.

Just my HO.

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grandveneur
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230225 - 19/05/13 11:59 PM

That's right , but not to be blinded by admiration ! There was others elefants hunter in that era who are certainly concerned with adequate cartridges and adequate hunting practice for this game .

Who writes books want oftens to assert oneself and sometimes to boast !

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: grandveneur]
      #230226 - 20/05/13 12:17 AM

Quote:

That's right , but not to be blinded by admiration ! There was others elefants hunter in that era who are certainly concerned with adequate cartridges and adequate hunting practice for this game .

Who writes books want oftens to assert oneself and sometimes to boast !



These guys may have used bigger cartridges, but did they have the anatomical knowledge that he did to place those shots. A small solid that is put in the correct spot is better than a large that is not.


.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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500Nitro
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #230228 - 20/05/13 12:24 AM


grand

I hunt with a mate, we were culling Buffalo one day
and had something like 21 down on the ground in a
minute or two, both with 375's

Now, a Cow and two calves, mid age which wwre out front
of the herd when we started shooting got to the other side.

My mate said "Be back shortly" and off he went.
Short while later, 3 shots.

After doing the business on the 21 Buffalo, off we went to the three. He had shot all 3 with one shot to the head
- with a small 6mm.

He has shot thousands of Buffalo (and other things) and as such know the anatomy very well indeed and is able to do these things, just as Bell was with the 7mm and Elephant.

And FYI, my mate has a standing policy of no head shooting of Buffalo by his friends, no ifs or buts about it - and having shot Buffalo for 10 years, I can see why with all the potential problems.

So I can't see why Bell who STUDIED what he did so well
is not allowed to use a 7mm.

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grandveneur
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230233 - 20/05/13 01:19 AM

We don't want to argue about the use or not of smaller calibers for hunting big game ! I prefer the big bores . IMHO we are so on the safe side .


Edited by grandveneur (20/05/13 01:44 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: grandveneur]
      #230235 - 20/05/13 03:07 AM


Not just the safe side, but a damn sight more fun !!! LOL


Says me who likes big bores but have only stopped
charges with small / medium bores - 338WM !!!

As they say, you use what you have in your
hand at the time !!!

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grandveneur
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230237 - 20/05/13 03:22 AM

That's right , the fun also play a important role by using big bores ! But it's necessary to have at the time in all situation the right thing in your hand !

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500Nitro
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: grandveneur]
      #230238 - 20/05/13 03:25 AM


And don't forget the important part !

The ability to use it !!!

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grandveneur
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230242 - 20/05/13 03:47 AM

We are in control of the situation !

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pondoro62
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: grandveneur]
      #230247 - 20/05/13 04:37 AM

Grandveneur has some valid Points here......no doubt that a lot of game were wounded and lost in the early Days by small bore fanatics..

A friend of mine shot cape Buffalo in Tanzania in the the nineties with a .308....it is possible to do it, but it does not make the .308 a DG rifle..!

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: pondoro62]
      #230258 - 20/05/13 09:53 AM

I think the difference with Bell in regards to big bore/small bore, is that he studied, experimented, and tried the big bores, and ended up with what worked best for HIS particular situation. I don't consider reasoned choice fanaticism

I think for ninety-nine percent of us, his choice would be the wrong one, and it would be as Grandveneur says: "on the safe side". Blind adulation and imitation is foolish. If one had his skill-set, though, things might be different. There were no minimum calibers in those days.

In regards to Bell's losing a lot of game...I personally don't believe it happened. I'm sure he lost some, as anyone hunting in those quantities will, but you can go down two paths:

You assume he lied or omitted a bunch of losses

You assume he is telling the truth

I personally don't feel, from the reading, that he lied. He says when he loses game, as does Selous in his accounts. They SEEM truthful to me. He isn't puffing himself up, or telling wild tales...most of his writing is pretty straightforward.

However, I wasn't there, didn't know the man, so all I can go on is the printed word.

I HAVE read plenty of people ONLINE, saying things like "he walked into a herd, and just started shooting, didn't care about wounding, left them to die in agony, etc, etc."

Which is why I posed my original question, because I want a reliable source for this.

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500Nitro
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #230259 - 20/05/13 10:07 AM


"I HAVE read plenty of people ONLINE, saying things like "he walked into a herd, and just started shooting, didn't care about wounding, left them to die in agony, etc, etc."

That's what they say.

I can't remember 100% but am pretty sure he doesn't say that in his books.

I thought he took much more carefully aimed shots
and almost got trampled a few times.

I need to read the book again.

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tophet1
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230260 - 20/05/13 10:26 AM

Bell would often use a ladder in the middle of a herd and the soft report didn't scare them. It's in his books. No doubt the angles were different and like a man on horseback, a man on a ladder not a recogniseable threat.

Read the book.

I agree with you grandveneur. You don't get to read everything that happened.

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: tophet1]
      #230279 - 20/05/13 09:18 PM

The truth probably lies in the middle.

Undoubtedly Bell had to learn the hard way about some things, but he did start out in the conventional fashion, with a 450/400.

On the other hand, when he went to smaller bores, he recognised that he needed to understand the anatomy of the elephant and studied it extensively.

With this knowledge and the regular practice he achieved with, amongst other things, shooting the meat animals for his labourers, he was able to develop his technique. As we often hear, the harder he worked, the luckier he got.

To suggest that he wantonly waltzed into he middle of a herd and put lead in the air until something fell over is just as foolish as suggesting that he never failed. (And grand, I know you didn't)

Bell was a man of his time. To judge him by today's standards is to misplace the context of his life, but we can still learn from him. I have certainly studied anatomy more closely after reading some of his work, but prefer to err on the "heavy" side, calibre wise. (See sig)

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