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Rule303
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Kano]
      #228673 - 13/04/13 08:22 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the beliefe that Bell shot around 2000 Elephants in his time, over 1100 with the 275 Rigby (7X57) the others with 6.5X54, 303British, 416 Rigby-small number as he preferd a lighter rifle, 318WR.

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Rule303]
      #228681 - 13/04/13 10:57 PM

I believe it was just over a thousand. 1011 rings a Bell ( ). He kept pretty meticulous records, I think. Who knows, really, though?

There are certainly quite a few others with those kind of numbers, especially the guys involved in the big culls, and the guys like Taylor, with a long, long career. Bell's career was fairly short, and seemingly lucrative.

I don't imagine there are too many guys out there that did that kind of killing with such small bores though.

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tophet1
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228691 - 14/04/13 02:22 AM

Bell's preferred calibre was the 6.5x54MS. He stoped using it when he ran out of reliable ammo and had to switch to the 7x57. This is in his book.

The adoration of the 7x57 is due to his chance use of it and supply difficulties of 6.5x54. Not through choice. He started off with .303's as he had no money.

It is a lot cheaper to buy and carry more ex-mil ammo than find and buy large bore ammo. Bell was not recoil shy. This also is in his writings. I believe this supply issue may be the reason for small calibre rifles being used.

He had many and varied travels and employments during his life. Including gold prospecting and supplying gold diggers in Alaska (?) ref needed.

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Kano
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: tophet1]
      #228694 - 14/04/13 03:30 AM

Early in his elephant hunting, he had a 450/400 double. Always the experimenter, he rigged the triggers so that it would double with every shot, and he compared results with his .275.

His conclusion was that 800 grains in the wrong place don't kill them, and 170 grains in the right place kills them. So he'd rather carry a lighter rifle, and make darn sure that his bullets went to the right place.

He'd be mightily amused to see that 110 years on the debate still rages, and that hunters jump at each other's throat over "bigger is better" vs "shoot straight and you don't need bigger"...

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Rule303
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Kano]
      #228705 - 14/04/13 08:48 AM

I also remember that Bell said a soft point never fouled the bore of his rifle presumable the 275.

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Rule303]
      #228712 - 14/04/13 11:11 AM

"The food ran out. The boys had eaten all the elephant meat they had bought with them. My food was finished, but the cartridges were not, thank goodness. I remember ordering a cartridge belt from Rigby to hold fifty rounds. He asked me what on earth I wanted with so many on it. I said I like them and there was a time when it paid to have them."
WDM 'Karamojo' Bell



I found this an interesting read, for those who haven't seen it before:


http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2010-12/201012210395-1954bellreduced.pdf


Link and quote from Suburbanbushwacker, with my thanks. It seemed on topic.

Edited by Even (14/04/13 11:14 AM)

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Rule303]
      #228713 - 14/04/13 11:28 AM

I remember when I was a kid growing up in Montana the State Fish & Game commission did a survey among hunters pertaining to the Elk kills and how many shots it took a certain hunter to kill his Elk and the caliber of his rifle .It included hits misses and followup shots.The far worst were the magnums ;338 and 7 Rem Mag being the worst(between 8 and 9 shots per Elk). The 30-06 did very well but the winner by a large margin (just a bit over 1 shot per Elk was the 300 Savage.This survey showed me #1 the 300 Savage kills Elk very well (my Dad used this caliber and never needed more than 1 shot; #2 Big magnum rifles used by most folks (whether they admit it or not) cant shoot them very well.#3 Large flat shooting cartridges make hunters take longer shots at game than they ordinarily would resulting in misses and wounding of an animal. As long as the bullet is of reliable construction ,moderate calibers kill large animals quite well .Bell proved this theory to a fault.Of course Bell knew how to shoot and knew his quarries anatomy perfectly.And Bell was not the only great Hunter to use the 7x57 ,J A Hunter of Afrikan fame used one and Jim Corbett killed many of his man eaters with his 275 Rigby (quite similar to Bells)Finn Aagaard also preached this . Remember the cattle killing lions and leopards and the Cape Buffalo his friend killed with his BRNO Hornet in Kenya.I use exactly this rifle (ZKW BRNO Hornet) to hunt deer on my friends large ranch.I have killed many many large bucks with this little cartridge and have never lost one.I have never taken a shot over 90 yards and make sure of the ones I do take .Not all are head shots either.My point is learn to hunt . Don't make the mistake of substituting equipment for skill. Make sure of your shots .Use a rifle you know you can handle and practice .Do not take long shots as so many variables make wounding and losing an animal more likely.I do not own a magnum and never will.The 9.3x62 is an accepted minimum caliber for most countries in Afrika so no excuse there for dangerous game.In countries like Namibia the 7x57 meets the joules limit perfectly .What was good for Bell has always served me quite well.

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (14/04/13 11:32 AM)

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #228765 - 15/04/13 11:20 AM

Good post. Dad always said "Get close, shoot straight". It certainly works.

I think too, many people have an "all or nothing" mentality. Everyone's opinions are colored by their experience. In Bell's case, he was trying to hunt and kill elephant as efficiently as possible, and had control of the situation, due to his skill-set.

If I were a PH, dealing with hunters who are often completely unknown quantities in their shooting abilities, courage, and bush-craft, I would definitely want more horsepower and a BIG stopping rifle, in Africa. Who knows what kind of a cock-up you'll be dealing with, from minute to minute.

Bell's skill was rare, as was Corbett's, and they both obviously had an analytical bent. They both also had that rare human gift: patience. In my admittedly limited experience, that is a huge advantage. It lets you get the setup you want, not hurry the shot, so you only rarely need anything extra in the way of help.

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Kano
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228776 - 15/04/13 02:10 PM

Quote:

Everyone's opinions are colored by their experience. In Bell's case, he was trying to hunt and kill elephant as efficiently as possible, and had control of the situation, due to his skill-set.

If I were a PH, dealing with hunters who are often completely unknown quantities in their shooting abilities, courage, and bush-craft, I would definitely want more horsepower and a BIG stopping rifle, in Africa. Who knows what kind of a cock-up you'll be dealing with, from minute to minute.



Absolutely right. That's the main reason why PHs usually carry a "stopping caliber". As for the hunter, he's much better served with a rifle he knows and masters thoroughly, whatever the caliber may be. All the PHs I know are much more concerned with the client's knowledge of animal's anatomy and capacity to place a killing shot with a proper bullet, than the caliber of their rifle.

An old Rhodesian hand, now retired, told me once "One of my worst nightmares was to see a client arriving with a brand new .460 Weatherby or double .500..."

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Kano]
      #228779 - 15/04/13 03:12 PM

A friend of mine went out hunting with a little Sicilian fellow we both worked with. He told me afterwards this fellow missed a bull moose at about a hundred feet because he flinched so badly his eyes closed. The little hunter shot a Weatherby magnum, one of the smaller ones. I can imagine the .460 is a tad nastier. Especially for squat guys with no necks

In regards to Karamoja, Kano, how do you find the Karamojong people to work among, and live with? How is Uganda in general, nowadays, for the visitor?

Lets predicate a reasonable visitor, who isn't uptight, and understands parts of Africa are very different from home...

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tophet1
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228782 - 15/04/13 04:08 PM

I'm not a Bell fan and there are a number of reasons for this.

1) He wrote his books many years after the events happened, not contemporaneously.
2) He wrote about himself, which like a politician is always open to exaggeration or distortion.
3) He found that when he could afford .318 rifles the 'inexplicable misses' he had with smaller calibres stopped happening. This is in his books. Did he miss ? or were the shots ineffective ?
4) Most of the common lore we know of Bell is regurgitated through popular print media.

I'm sure he had an interesting life, but so did a lot of other contemporaries who did not write books or obtain popularity in modern mass print media.

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: tophet1]
      #228790 - 15/04/13 08:10 PM

I'm glad to hear another opinion, Tophet. There are obviously a lot of people who aren't Bell fans out there.

He definitely found the .318 a better killer. He said so, in the article I linked above. Pinning the 7x57 "adoration" on Bell is stretching it a little though. I'm sure there were a few Rough-Riders who wished they had one, in Cuba, or Brits in the Boer War. Its a useful cartridge. Nothing supernatural, mind, but very useful, particularly back then.

As John pointed out, above, you are always going to cast yourself in the best light in your own memoirs. That said, in reading the only primary sources we have, his own books, and the occasional accounts by other hunters, he doesn't come across as a puffed-up writer. He is certainly no Richard Meinertzhagen, in that I haven't found a lot of dissenting views on his honesty.

Who knows though, really, without being there?

I wish those contemporaries had written books too! All the more fun to read.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228791 - 15/04/13 08:42 PM

I cannot understand how anyone could think that W.D.M. Bell was not a most extraordinary man...Townsend Whelen certainly did as did many others.

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Kano
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #228792 - 15/04/13 09:14 PM

Even, uganda has a wonderful climate, not too hot nor too cold, and is really a beautiful country - right at the top of those I visited or lived in. People are generally welcoming, and Immigration and Customs at entry are a pleasure to deal with. Visa is obtained on arrival at the airport, $50 and two minutes.

Karamoja is a place all by itself. Its people, geography, geology, weather, landscapes, set it apart. One of the most stunning regions I've seen - and i've traveled a lot. As for the Karimojong... Well, have you read Bell's books? Here we are, his depiction of people and characters nail it. Even though he's giving very few details on locations, when you know the place you can understand where he was and which particular clans he was dealing with. To summarize things, in Karamoja the traditional argument solving tool is a spear or an AK, and if people don't like you, you're going to know about it... On the other hand, if they do like you it's a great place to operate, people are supportive and helpful.

Tophet, as far as I know, Stigand, Patterson, Stanley, Baker, Selous, Boyes, Sutherland, Puxley, Burton, Lyell, Horn, Taylor, Hunter, Lake, and countless others who roamed Africa before tour operators took care of one's trifles, all wrote after the fact... And if you knew what Bell is talking about, you'd realize that he was very matter-of-fact and unpretentious in his writings. As for his elephant hunting, he never claimed any particular glory, and kept very meticulous accounts of what he was shooting: dates, locations, weights, relevant details. He was a businessman, not a blast-away fame-seeker.

He fought two wars without being asked to, ended up as an officer, and if I'm not mistaken was awarded a Military Cross, which you don't usually get for bragging after hours at the Officer's mess.

Having seen my fare share of Africa in general and Karamoja in particular, I have come to learn the difference between a bullshitter and a straight-shooter (figuratively, in this case). My honest opinion is that Bell was a gentleman, and someone with whom I'd have gladly shared a drink around the fire.

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Kano]
      #228795 - 15/04/13 11:08 PM

Thanks, Kano...Uganda just moved up several notches on my "must see" list.

In regards to the karamojong, I had a mental picture of them, and I'm glad to hear they are still like that. Its been my experience with a couple other fractious Tribal-type peoples, that its much like that: if they don't like you, you're in trouble, if they do...they can't do enough for you.

Haha, try dealing with the Haida sometime, if they don't like what you stand for. No AKs though.

Thank god.

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500Nitro
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228796 - 15/04/13 11:29 PM


"and if I'm not mistaken was awarded a Military Cross, which you don't usually get for bragging after hours at the Officer's mess."

He was actually awarded a Military Cross and Bar.

He was a Pilot.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: 500Nitro]
      #228841 - 16/04/13 10:27 AM

Mr. Bell was indeed extraordinary. With Selous and Corbett as possibly the 3 greatest hunters of all time.

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500Nitro
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #228844 - 16/04/13 11:02 AM


What about Baker (as in Sir Samuel Baker).

Was earlier than the rest so in some ways forged
the way.

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gryphon
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228845 - 16/04/13 11:38 AM

Quote:



Haha, try dealing with the Haida sometime, if they don't like what you stand for. No AKs though.

Thank god.



Funny you mention the Haida,a girlfriend of mine when I was living in QLD was half Haida Indian,no AK either.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: gryphon]
      #228858 - 16/04/13 05:32 PM

Haida women are quite often very beautiful.

Crazy, but beautiful

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Rule303
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228863 - 16/04/13 07:53 PM

I remember one account of Bell written by whom I cant remember, told of his self taught shooting technique. Bell apparently taught himself to use a Bolt Action. Now instead of keeping the but in his shoulder he would pull the stock/rifle forward while working the bolt rearward and then bringing both back together. Worked for him and may explain the odd poor shoot placement.

Same account also told that when Bell was shown the 308 he thought that might be the perfect calibre for Africa. Maybe for him, not me, I am not that cool or good a shot.

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bakposten
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Rule303]
      #228865 - 16/04/13 09:09 PM

He said that he thought the 30-06 would be the perfect calibre for Africa, but he would choose the 308 because of the shorter action.

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Even
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: bakposten]
      #228872 - 16/04/13 11:35 PM

Well, he had the skill to be able to use a light cartridge.

He liked to carry plenty of ammo on his person, and carry less weight.

He didn't like really loud rifles, as they spook game more.

He liked a short bolt throw, for faster follow-up shots.

He liked a light rifle, ergo the short action preference. That shaves a lot of carry weight.

Most of these things would lead you to the .308 over the 30-06, as he really didn't have a preference for the heavy bullets.

I'm curious what he would have made of the 6.5x55. Availability in Africa would likely have killed that idea though.

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VonGruff
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228895 - 17/04/13 07:10 AM

I believe he finished his days on hunting the Scotish Red Deer with a 220 Swift, taking them with neck shots. Acording to his Jan 1950 artical.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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Rule303
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Re: W.D.M. Bell [Re: Even]
      #228932 - 17/04/13 07:37 PM

Quote:

Well, he had the skill to be able to use a light cartridge.

He liked to carry plenty of ammo on his person, and carry less weight.

He didn't like really loud rifles, as they spook game more.

He liked a short bolt throw, for faster follow-up shots.

He liked a light rifle, ergo the short action preference. That shaves a lot of carry weight.

Most of these things would lead you to the .308 over the 30-06, as he really didn't have a preference for the heavy bullets.

I'm curious what he would have made of the 6.5x55. Availability in Africa would likely have killed that idea though.



Re the 6.5 Bell was some times dissapointed as more than a few of the bullets had the base trying to overtake the tip. That is they bent when hiting solid bone due to their long lenght. I dare say the modern bullets with a stiffer jacket would of been to his likeing.

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