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Safarischorsch
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Hornady encapsulated failed totally!
      #20730 - 10/11/04 05:04 AM

Hello all together!

Last week i shot my first and my second buffalo in Tanzania.

Both one shot kills with my Heym Express 460 Weath mag.

First shot on 130 meters (500gr Trophy bonded) and the buffalo went down completly. The bullet did not shot out! It was perfectly mushroomed under the skin on the other side with a restweight of more than 80%.

The second buffalo got the trophy bonded on his chest he went down after 7 meters. The bullet nearly penetrated perfectly nearly the buff completly. The security shot with hornady full metal jacket encapsulated into the hart straight to neck did not get out. The bullet was found in the neck no lead in it not encpsulated any longer. The woundchannel shows clearly that it has tumbled!!!!


Edited by Safarischorsch (10/11/04 08:46 PM)

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #20731 - 10/11/04 05:15 AM

What is a Hornady VM? You da-man shooting a 460WM!

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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450Dakota
.300 member


Reged: 18/03/04
Posts: 113
Loc: California, USA
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #20991 - 18/11/04 05:47 PM

It seems that is not unusual, I had to do a follow-up on a bull in Zambia. At first I thought it was simply a mucked up shot, then during skinning found the Hornady solid had flattened and zoomed off in the wrong directions.. I just recieved some Hornady softs (I use them for practice ammo) and found that they discontinued their "interlock" and their bullets are now "Bonded core". Can't wait to hear the reports on this budget priced "Bonded" bullet..



450Dakota

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #21005 - 19/11/04 04:32 AM

I've seen the same thing happen on a few different FMJs, but the worst one from my experience is the trophy bonded.

If you're gonna use a solid, (in a bolt action) I reckon you should use a mono solid.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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SteveM
.224 member


Reged: 20/08/04
Posts: 33
Loc: Alberta, CAN
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #21317 - 25/11/04 12:29 PM

Safarischorsh

I had the same thing happen while doing some load development with my 458 Lott.

Bullets were in the 2200 to 2300 muzzle velocity range going through plywood (to hold target) and into a dirt backstop at 50 yds.

The bullet on the right I believe was hit by another round so could be explained that way but the one in the center is in good condition. Does the impact 'pop' out the core? I'm not sure but I don't believe it happened midflight as POI was right in with the other shots fired.

I emailed Hornady and they replied that they had never seen that happen. To be fair I had the 2 or three on the one day and have not had a recurrence since. Bad lot perhaps? Not a big issue on the target range but it does tend to make one lose a little confidence in using the bullet when it really matters.

SteveM

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Safarischorsch
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: SteveM]
      #21522 - 01/12/04 12:15 AM

Hello Shakari and SteveM!

Yes i will use special solids in the future!

When i filmed the skinners work i saw that the wound channel of the FMJ was too high so that the bullet must have tumbled!
So and when it tumbles it is no wonder that the lead is out of it.
Here you can see my two bullets:

Hornady "encapsulated" but empty only 17,5 Gramms weight left.

And the Trophy bonded bear claw out of my other buffalo that penetrated straight and mushroomed perfectly. 26,5 Gramms left...

It is not my homepage but the two bullets are mine...

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Hart_oder_weich.htm#Schulterstabilisierung

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #21535 - 01/12/04 04:49 AM

I get my mono's from Ken Stewart of Stewart Bullets here in south Africa. Ken is brilliant and makes any calibre and any profile you want.

The ones he makes for me are to my own design and they're the best I've ever used. He also makes a hi-performer soft that I've also found excellent and for those hunters in the UK and other places where the cops make it difficult to use expanding bullets he also makes an FMJ bullet that is very very thinly covered at the tip of the bullet and will "fail" and act like a soft nose......that way, you're complying with the silly laws by only using a FMJ, but also getting the performance of a soft.

If anyone needs to contact Ken they can just send me an e-mail.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: shakari]
      #21555 - 01/12/04 02:05 PM

Shakari,
Do you find the big mono solids ever distort, flatten or bend after breaking heavy bone?
Just wondering as I have not used them.

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: 4seventy]
      #21558 - 01/12/04 03:43 PM

Nope,

Except for the rifling marks, every one I've ever recovered could be shot again. I recovered one earlier this year that shot through a (small) tree and into a Buff and it hadn't distorted at all.

On the other hand, a client shot an EA Eland with a .375 trophy bonded FMJ that we recovered from the carcass and it had bent like a banana.

The cost of my mono's (from Ken) are about 27 Rand each. (US$4.50) .........cheap life insurance by any standards.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: shakari]
      #21573 - 02/12/04 02:16 AM

Shakari

Can you post pictures of some of your bullets?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: mickey]
      #21583 - 02/12/04 04:10 AM

Funny you should mention that.......I've tried and tried to get good photographs of bullets and they never come out well.......I've tried macro lenses and tripods and flashguns yet the results always disappoint me......perhaps someone can tell me how I should do it?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39259
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #21593 - 02/12/04 10:50 AM

Isn't this a common problem with a .460 WM ie pushing bullets faster than their design specifications?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Safarischorsch
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: NitroX]
      #21631 - 03/12/04 09:37 AM

NitroX:


No it is not because when there is a problem then there is a problem of stabilisation! Otherwise the 458 lott would be too fast too...

In future i will use these solids:

http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrat.htm

Edited by Safarischorsch (03/12/04 09:38 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39259
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #21637 - 03/12/04 12:54 PM

Woodleigh for example publishes recommended velocity ranges for its projectiles. None of which come close to the .460 Wby.

I imagine Hornady would have similar design expectations if not lesser as their bullets definitely do not have the same high reputation as Woodleigh.

I believe if you push a Lott at 2400 fps it too is at the top if not slightly exceeding the recommended velocity range. However it is terminal velocity which is important - ie at impact.

Those bullets do look interesting.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: NitroX]
      #21681 - 04/12/04 08:10 PM

OK Folks,

Finally managed it.

Here's the best I can do. Click on the image and it should open........ I hope.
My rifle began life as a .416 Wea and I later had it rebuilt to a .500 Jeffrey.

going left to right:-

1- Unfired Stewart mono .500 Jeff bullet. This is the MK2 shape.

2 - fired Stewart MK1 mono .500 Jeff bullet. This one passed through a 4 or 5 inch tree and into a Buffalo. We found the bullet under the skin on the opposite side of the animal. The black thing at the base is a swivel I fixed in the bullet to attach it to a keyring.

3 - Fired .416 Barnes mono through a Buff and found on the opposite shoulder.

4 - .416 Barnes mono.......I think this one was much the same story as #2

Don't know why the #4 bullet is upside down....... my neighbour was kind enough to photograph them for me.



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by NitroX (06/03/05 02:30 AM)

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: shakari]
      #21701 - 05/12/04 06:19 AM

Now I've worked out this posting lark, here's a pic of the East African Eland that was taken by one of my clients a while ago (as previously mentioned).......he shot it with a Trophy Bonded FMJ that we found on the opposite side of the animal and it was bent like a banana..........I was bloody glad it was an Eland he used it on and not on an Elephant!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/p07f1ca475fc311136d0139954ff37529/fac88f29.jpg





(Changed ref code to an image )

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by NitroX (05/12/04 11:45 PM)

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Safarischorsch
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: shakari]
      #21834 - 07/12/04 07:12 AM

Sorry shakari i am told that it is forbidden to see your pictures...

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #21842 - 07/12/04 08:51 AM

DOH!!!!!

It's a good job I'm more at home with a rifle than I am a PC!

I'll try again, but in the meantime if you would like to send me an e-mail, I'll send the pictures to you.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: shakari]
      #21848 - 07/12/04 09:20 AM

Steve,

FWIW, I see your pictures just fine. Both the bullets and the eland.

Erik

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: EricD]
      #22044 - 10/12/04 04:31 AM

Thanks Eric.........I've now sent them to John and he'll post them for me.......thanks John!!!





--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by NitroX (06/03/05 02:30 AM)

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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: shakari]
      #22120 - 11/12/04 12:50 PM

I have seen Steve's .500jef on his key ring in person. You have to look very close to see the rifling marks on it. Compared to a unfired one in his belt it looked to be no worse for the ware. I can assure you I will be packing Stewart MONOs in the rifle I carry back in 05 for DG very impressive to say the least.

James F. Nixon III

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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: NONE]
      #22804 - 29/12/04 11:22 AM

The old Hornady solids always worked, why did they have to fix something that ain't broke...

Pierre van Tonder had all failures with his 505 Gibbs and Rhino bullets this year, the softs did not expand at all...
Fortunatly I had brought him some 505s with Bridger flat nose solids and they worked well...

Personally I like the Northfork monolithic cup points for all DG shooting, maybe elephant would be an exception and I would prefer Bridger or GS Custom flat nose solids for them.

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Siskiyous6
.275 member


Reged: 21/11/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Del Norte COunty, CA
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: atkinson6]
      #23744 - 08/01/05 05:56 PM

I have noticed in my reading about bullet performance that companies often change their products, sometimes for the better, and sometimes not.

One nice think about our time on earth, we can share our experiences as fast as they can make the changes.

Do any of you have experience with the Hornady 416 FMJ?

--------------------
Pass it on!

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: Siskiyous6]
      #34950 - 22/07/05 11:34 AM

I did not recall this thread and bought some Hornady encapsulated solids because they were very cheap. Now it looks like I will use them for target practice only.

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Hornady encapsulated failed totally! [Re: shakari]
      #40802 - 06/11/05 02:04 PM

If I don't reload, where can I get mono solids in ready to go ammo?

--------------------
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