Forums.NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact NitroExpress.com: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics)

*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

You are not logged in. [Login]

Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)

bakerb
.224 member

Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO

Elephant brain shot placement (with pics)
#114690 - 18/09/08 02:55 AM

Just read "The Perfect Shot." Good book. Wished there were more pictures

So I got some pictures and put where I thought the brain shot should be placed, if your rifle was the camera lens. Let me know if I'm close, or way off. . .

First of all, what is this guy doing??? Is he going to hit the elephant with that rifle? I placed this shot if I had to shoot over him

Thanks

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

Post Extras:

NE450No2
.375 member

Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
#114722 - 18/09/08 08:55 AM

Baker

That fella in your first picture is Ivan Carter, a Zimbabwe PH, with a lot of elephant experience and a friend of mine.

Many people, me included call him CRAZY IVAN.

He is known for getting close to elephants. He has stopped many a false charge by showing the elephant the butt stock of his gun.

I can say it does work, as I have done the same thing many times while hunting in Zim.

It usually stops them at 12 to 15 yards... at least it has worked so far.

Some of your frontal shots look a little high to me, but that may be just because I have shot most of my elephants at 6 yards or less, where the entry angle would be lower of course.

IMHO it is better to hit a little low than a little high.

There is NOTHING like elephant hunting.

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: NE450No2]
#114727 - 18/09/08 10:07 AM

Thanks for posting. I had some encounters with elephants at Humani that were hair raising. It's nice to be informed on the fine art of stopping elephants. I saw a Peter Capstick DVD where they sawed a skull in half. Very interesting anatomy lesson.

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: NE450No2]
#114766 - 18/09/08 10:27 PM

Quote:

Baker

That fella in your first picture is Ivan Carter, a Zimbabwe PH, with a lot of elephant experience and a friend of mine.

Many people, me included call him CRAZY IVAN.

He is known for getting close to elephants. He has stopped many a false charge by showing the elephant the butt stock of his gun.

*****

I too know Ivan a bit ---his enthusiasm is contagious---and a bit on the wild side...

Have visited with him in Africa and in Reno...the double he is shooting is a Heym in 450 caliber..given to him by one of his clients as a "tip"....

The book Ndlovu is very good and gives many illustrations on the correct placement of your shot...advise to get it--great book on elephant...

Agree with you on the above.. especially on the first photo--shot looks too high to me...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#114769 - 18/09/08 11:10 PM

I got a copy of that book from William Finnaughty while at Turgwi Camp. He is the grandson of the William Finnaughty who wrote "Recollections of an Elephant Hunter". He was given the books by the author. Wrote a very nice note in the front cover. Very interesting man and veteran leopard hunter. Can't wait to get time to read it. I think elephant will be the objective for my next safari.

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

ozhunter
.400 member

Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#114774 - 18/09/08 11:38 PM

From what I have been tort about Ele shot placement, your marks are too high. The protruding cheek bones / Zygomatic arch are a good point to line up with for frontal shots.

Edited by ozhunter (19/09/08 07:56 PM)

Post Extras:

larcher
.416 member

Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: ozhunter]
#114782 - 19/09/08 01:22 AM

Bake

Thanks for sharing. Nice pics and new ones for once. Nothing wrong with Doktari drawings but You bring more freshness.

I am a bit puzzled by this pic

The spot seems a bit low and tad to the right, hitting the zygomatic arch and probably missing the brain low?

For the other pics, I agree with posters, the spots looks a bit high. No pun intended of course.
Thanks for this interesting post.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

Post Extras:

bakerb
.224 member

Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: larcher]
#114802 - 19/09/08 04:25 AM

Thanks for the replies. It's helpful for me to think about. I guess I still don't understand where an elephant's earhole is. I'll keep trying.

Even though I'm probably 20 years or more away from being financially able to hunt elephants, if I'm ever able, I like to dream. And if I look for the brain shot angle on every elephant picture I see from now on, by the time I get to hunt, I will have visualized the shot enough that it will be automatic.

I'm a big believer in visualization. You train your muscles and develop muscle memory for shooting, so why not train your brain too, so that your brain automatically adjusts for the right shot, and you don't have to think about it.

It's something I've been doing for years in my treestands while bowhunting deer. I visualize different scenarios, and when something does happen, I automatically do what I've rehearsed in my mind. Without thinking about it. Seems to work.

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

Post Extras:

gryphon
.450 member

Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
#114804 - 19/09/08 05:02 AM

funny enough i am currently re reading Mr Bells fine book on his wanderings,his head shot marks in his drawings differ slightly to the above...i doffs me lid to Mr Bell.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

Post Extras:

JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#114807 - 19/09/08 05:33 AM

Quote:

I think elephant will be the objective for my next safari.

BigMaxx,

Already planning, eh?

JPK

Edited by JPK (19/09/08 05:35 AM)

Post Extras:

xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: gryphon]
#114810 - 19/09/08 05:50 AM

I suppose I have as much experience shooting elephants as any of the other participants in this forum. If there is one thing I have come away with as a result of the four brain shots I have attempted, it is that unless you can be completely sure of hitting the brain, you need to be shooting the most powerful rifle you can handle.

John Taylor ascribed values to various rifle-cartridge combinations with regard to their ability to stun an elephant and put him down, irrespective of whether the brain was actually hit. I believe his conclusions were correct. None of the three I shot with my .505 was able to stay on his feet after the initial shot and none got up again. Even the one I shot with a .458 did not make it back to his feet, although he was not stunned and struggled longer.

My first elephant was shot from the side. I had been told to aim above the cheekbone, halfway between the earhole and the eye, which I did. Unfortunately, in retrospect I was probably too close (25-30 yards), so that shooting up at a rather steep angle, I probably missed the brain high. Nonetheless the animal went down and after three more shots, stayed down. One of the 570 grain solids found its way to the far side eye socket, so there was some wandering of the bullet path inside the skull.

My second elephant was completely hidden by undergrowth, except for his head. Unfortunately, he was reaching up with his trunk to strip a delicacy from the tree in front of him, presenting me with a very unusual angle to shoot at. I shot at where I visualized his brain to be, and he went down at the shot. Unfortunately, he immediately began struggling to get up, and I was forced to fire three more times to finish him off. Because his "askari" was threatening a charge, I was unable to get closer to get a clearer shot until after his struggles had ceased. The effect of the .458 was definitely less than that of the .505.

My last two elephants were both taken with quartering brain shots from the rear with the .505. Both were shot behind the left ear and both toppled immediately and did not stir. Both received a heart shot, just to make sure.

Were I to hunt elephants again, which at my age (69) seems quite unlikely, I would not want to use anything less powerful than the .505, and a .577 would be even better, W.D.M. Bell to the contrary, notwithstanding.

Post Extras:

JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: larcher]
#114811 - 19/09/08 05:50 AM

Quote:

In this photo, the shot is a bit low, but would do the job, imo. Front to back it is fine.

The vertical slit to the right of the "shot spot" is where the ear hole is located, about three or four fingers' width up from the bottom.

The best way to actually see the ear hole is from a bit behind the ear/head junction. There is a fold of skin which obscures to ear hole from a staight side on view or from any angle forward.

The ear hole id's the rearward portion of the brain, you don't want to be shooting behind it if you are directly side to the elephant's ear hole. In fact you want to be a couple of inches in front. Also, there isn't a whole lot of room for a shot below the ear hole, or above.

A couple of the other photos show the shot too high. None too low. The tough part of making the shot, in reality or on the photos is "seeing" the rear of the zygomatic arches, which aren't really visible straight on. On a frontal brain shot you want your bullet to pass about a hands width above the rear of the arches, centered between them.

JPK

Post Extras:

bakerb
.224 member

Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#114812 - 19/09/08 05:56 AM

JUST TO CLARIFY

I am not an expert, and don't claim to be. Basically, I've read one book, and wanted to see if my thinking of the spots to shoot for the brain was correct. Obviously, I'm a little off.

Please, if you are going on Safari, please reference something besides this post for your Jumbo brain shot placement

Bake

(I'm an attorney, I had to add my disclaimer)

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

Edited by bakerb (19/09/08 06:02 AM)

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: xausa]
#114871 - 19/09/08 10:35 PM

Quote:

I suppose I have as much experience shooting elephants as any of the other participants in this forum. If there is one thing I have come away with as a result of the four brain shots I have attempted, it is that unless you can be completely sure of hitting the brain, you need to be shooting the most powerful rifle you can handle.

John Taylor ascribed values to various rifle-cartridge combinations with regard to their ability to stun an elephant and put him down, irrespective of whether the brain was actually hit. I believe his conclusions were correct. None of the three I shot with my .505 was able to stay on his feet after the initial shot and none got up again. Even the one I shot with a .458 did not make it back to his feet, although he was not stunned and struggled longer. quote]

=================
+++++++++++++

I read with interest on your post...and while I don't have as much experience on elephant yet..hope too one day...but the reason I am responding to this is that from what I have read as of late and talked with PH's is a few items I wanted to share..

Just read an article written a month or two ago in "PETERSONS HUNTING" by Craig Boddington who was hunting in Botswana..which supposedly has considerably larger elephants than those I hunted in northern Zimbabwe..however, in the article he basically stated he was not so sure on the KO factor of John Taylor..that proper placement was of much greater value..--he stated this based on the most recent hunt in which Craig was using I believe a 450 double while his companion was shooting a 577 double..Craig describes how his (Craigs)bull fell to the shot...which he freely admits has not ever been an easy shot for him...however his friend placed two shots at 8 yards into the head of a bull with .577 double--who turned and spun away..they eventually got the bull but it took some doing..

Another PH I visited with when I was in Zim earlier this year stated he felt it best that the caliber you are shooting, particularly when shooting the larger bulls of Botswana..should be in the 2300 fps to 2400 fps range...

The tuskless I shot, as you described, I visualized the brain..using a 400 gr Barnes solid out of a .416 Remington Caliber custom rifle..she dropped to the shot..not much movement at all much less trying to get up...at 17 yards quartering toward us..

Don't misunderstand me please---I love big bores..and love shooting .577 and 505 Gibbs, and all thir type..and do believe in Taylors formula somewhat..but as in all things..there are variables..

I guess my point is--elephant are no different than any other game animal we hunt...shot placement is almost everything..IMHO...yes, there are other factors...but where you smash with the hammer is of more importance than the size of said hammer..again, IMHO...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#114876 - 19/09/08 10:47 PM

Good observation Ripp. Look at some of the comparatively piddly calibers Karamojo Bell used. .303 and smaller if memory serves me. While the experience of those old ivory hunters made that possible, I think I will try to take a double rifle when I return one day to hunt elephant. I hope to find a .470 that suits me. I simply must hunt them now!

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

Indy
.224 member

Reged: 23/04/04
Posts: 22

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115098 - 22/09/08 10:32 AM

Karamojo Bell was trying to hit the brain, not knock out the elephant, after many, many practice shots on other elephants. Also, he didn't have to pay a $12,000 trophy fee and stop hunting elephants if one got away.

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Indy]
#115100 - 22/09/08 10:41 AM

Hitting the brain will always knock the elephant out, permanently. You guys feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Bell had much more than a trophy fee at stake!

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Indy]
#115102 - 22/09/08 10:50 AM

I'm about 50% successful on frontal brain shots I've made. All of the tuskless have dropped to a miss, one tusked cow faltered but did not drop. Three bulls have not dropped or even faltered, but one was stopped in a charge and turned.

500grs at 2145fps or 450grs at 2190fps.

Bulls are more imune by far from the shock of a close miss.

But a big bore will turn a charge or drop an elephant, I've turned two and so has 500grs, when a medium bore, even one with more velocity and even more enegy just won't. If you doubt this than fire up Buzz Charlton's very informative and fun DVD, "Hutning the African Elephant," and listen for how many times he recites, "...a hunter using a rifle that shoots a 500gr bullet would have dropped this elephants..."

Buzz uses a 416 Rigby and stops a charging cow in the DVD. His narative, "...If I'd have been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullets, this elephant would have dropped..."

JPK

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115104 - 22/09/08 11:02 AM

I am a big fan of the 500 grain bullet too. I put one solid into my buff beside his tail and it was recovered from the throat! Thats some penetration! He was over 40 yards hauling ass straight away. I hunted plains game at Humani and had several close encounters with elephants. I kept two solids in the bottom of the magazine on my .375 ruger. BTW, That was a backup shot on the buff, he already had a 500 grain A-Frame in the boiler room.

Edited by bigmaxx (22/09/08 11:33 AM)

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115110 - 22/09/08 12:47 PM

Quote:

Hitting the brain will always knock the elephant out, permanently. You guys feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Bell had much more than a trophy fee at stake!

Did read an article today where Bell was quoted in saying..for the less experienced hunter he might be better suited to have a larger caliber..as they would not have had the opportunity to shoot the large amount of game he has..

Having said that, I agree with BigMax--don't care if its 250 or 750 grains--if they hit the brain, its lights out...period....

I did find the article mentioned above..it was actually in GUNS & AMMO written by Boddington earlier this year..his buddy was under 20 yards to a bull ele shooting a .577 3" double..both barrels..the bull turned and ran..they did get him..but stated how Boddington was shocked in that the bull didn't drop on the spot...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (22/09/08 11:01 PM)

Post Extras:

bakerb
.224 member

Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115181 - 23/09/08 01:49 AM

Well, after I get Bell's book and maybe some others, I will check back in with some more questions

If I ever go, I plan to at least be packing a .470. And I want to be able to precisely hit the brain. It's not good enough to count on missing and hope to knock out with a large caliber.

Thanks for all of the responses. I am learning a lot

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

Post Extras:

xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
#115190 - 23/09/08 03:44 AM

If you think of an elephant's brain as an object about the size and shape of a loaf of rye bread, you will be about right. Now imagine that same loaf suspended within a 55 gallon drum, and you have about the same ratio as the size of an elephant's brain to the size of his skull.

There are no bulls eyes painted on the side of the drum to show where to shoot from any angle, and anybody telling you that a hunter with little or no experience shooting an elephant will be able to get it right every time, no matter how much he practices and visualizes, is living in la-la land.

W.D.M.Bell was the Peyton Manning of elephant hunters, but even Peyton has a bad day and gets intercepted occasionally. All I can say is that of the four elephants I have killed (all large bulls, and all but one with 70 lbs.+ of ivory per side) all were brian shots, and all went down at the shot, never to rise again. At the time, I was in my 30's, in great physical shape, and at the top of my form in shooting, both with a rifle and with a shotgun. Nevertheless, I would not want to repeat Bell's experiment with a small bore.

Remember, Bell was shooting for ivory. He was not interested in shooting only one bull from a herd. One of his justifications for using a small rifle was that it didn't alarm the rest of the herd, allowing him to make multiple kills from a single stand, like the buffalo hunters in the American West.

I am not making recommendations to anyone else. Anyone is free to shoot all the elephants he wants with a 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer, but I, personally, will be using my .500 NE, .500 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs or .577 if I ever have the opportunity to shoot an elephant again. I have always shot for the brain, but it was comforting to know that if my aim was less than perfect or my visualation of where to aim was slightly off, I had an insurance policy in the form of the powerful cartridge.

Post Extras:

JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
#115191 - 23/09/08 03:53 AM

Keep in mind that the challenge of braining an elephant isn't hitting a =/- 6" oblong disk (frontal) or American football sized target (side) at 10 or 20 yards.

The challenge is hitting that disk when its anywhere from 12" to 3' plus behind the point of impact and moving, likewise that football, though a side brain shot is much easier. The apparent motion of the brain at close quarters is significant. Considerably more significant is the apparent motion of the point of impact on the head for a frontal brain shot when the elephant raises or lowers it's head or turns it's head, especially when the whole of the elephant is also moving.

It's been the motion that has caused me the greatest challenge. "Seeing" the brain itself, through the elephant, as the elephant moves, described by Richard Harland in "Ndlovu", is something that I have yet to acheive.

Pushing your approach as close as you can, until the elephant is turning to you and often moving, which I find to be the most incredible experience in the hunt, also makes your shot a heck of a lot more difficult. Standing off even twenty or thirty yards, with plenty of time, and shooting a stationary and unaware elephant isn't the same challenge as approaching until the elephant turns to you at twelve or ten or whatever and you need to mount your rifle and shoot immeadiately.

Buzz Charlton's first DVD is pretty good at showing shot placement on some turning or moving elephants, btw.

JPK

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115195 - 23/09/08 04:47 AM

One thing that helped me with the brain shot was looking at old elephant skulls that were in camp...looking where the brain was on them ---as well as looking at the one I had shot while in the skinning shed...

And again ...while in the field visiting with the PH..and questioning him on the shots and brain position..

Boddington who is probably in the field as much as anyone by his own admission, sure seems to have a problem with the brain shot as well...meanwhile, Ivan Carter flatly states he wants his hunters to ONLY take brain shots which is why he gets the hunters as close as he does..while visiting with him in Reno..he seem to think this was the only way fitting for an animal this majestic to die...I believe we can all have our own thoughts on that one..but do agree..the brain shot is magical when done correctly.....

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: xausa]
#115196 - 23/09/08 04:53 AM

Quote:

W.D.M.Bell was the Peyton Manning of elephant hunters, but even Peyton has a bad day and gets intercepted occasionally. All I can say is that of the four elephants I have killed (all large bulls, and all but one with 70 lbs.+ of ivory per side) all were brian shots, and all went down at the shot, never to rise again. At the time, I was in my 30's, in great physical shape, and at the top of my form in shooting, both with a rifle and with a shotgun. Nevertheless, I would not want to repeat Bell's experiment with a small bore.

+++++++++++++

XAUSA

Think, IMHO, you've hit part of the puzzle right there...from what I have gathered around campfires in Africa, watching hunters on TV, and seeing them in the field...some think they can spend their way into being great...the beauty of this sport and many others...you have to pay the price to be consistant...you have to put in the training..as in shooting practice...keeping fit, etc...otherwise you will NOT be in the game and unfortunately the game pays the price with being wounded..not always the case...but more often than not..

Not trying to offend anyone here..but my goodness...you are spending at times, tens of thousands of dollars...do both your PH and yourself a favor and get in shape--provided your health permits...and practice shooting...Not to mention anyone on this forum but I will..look at BigMax...I KNOW he did a ton of practicing before his hunt..lots of research and it all worked out...he had a fantastic hunt...

Thanks

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

poprivit
.333 member

Reged: 09/04/07
Posts: 397
Loc: Las Vegas, NV

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115198 - 23/09/08 06:18 AM

My last elephant experience found me putting 750 grains of .577 from one of Mr. Searcy's finest into a brain shot ... that missed the brain by about 1.5 inches. The elephant went straight down ... laid there for 10-15 seconds ... then got back up. Were I to do another elephant from 30 yards, or less, I'd put my first shot from my Ruger .458 Lott into his front shoulder. It's your hunt and your call, but I know a couple of people who have tried the brain shot and not done well. At least the shoulder shot will anchor the animal.

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115215 - 23/09/08 12:17 PM

Thanks Ripp. I asked a ton of questions and you kind folks were always nice enough to answer. Very grateful for that. Now I am turning my attention to elephants. Lots of good stuff here!

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115283 - 23/09/08 10:37 PM

Quote:

Now I am turning my attention to elephants. Lots of good stuff here!

AND SO IT BEGINS.....

Ripp...

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39245
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115286 - 23/09/08 10:48 PM

Personally I find most of the dots on the photos are a little too high and the broadside one too far back.

A problem with photos is the lack of perspective. How far away is the elephant? his affects the angle of the shot and how far down or up to shoot. More easier to tell the distance on film or real life.

What I also did was learn the broomstick method of judging where the brain was, and whenever I saw an elephant, at the zoo, on a calendar, on a TV documentary, to practice trying to estimate where the brain was, and where to place the bullet.

Worked well enough to be lucky enough to drop two cows with single frontal brain shots. (plus insurance shots)

***

These two products helped me a lot for my two elephants.

NitroExpress.com has some of these in stock

Out of stock.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: NitroX]
#115289 - 23/09/08 10:55 PM

Quote:

Personally
What I also did was learn the broomstick method of judging where the brain was, and whenever I saw an elephant, at the zoo, on a calendar, on a TV documentary, to practice trying to estimate where the brain was, and where to place the bullet.

Worked well enough to be lucky enough to drop two cows with single frontal brain shots. (plus insurance shots

Agree--the broomstick method works well...I also keep in mind where the eyes are on the elephant in relation to the earholes on a frontal shot..for me anyway..it helps to line things up..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115294 - 23/09/08 11:22 PM

On the "broomstick method", I have had trouble being confident that I had pinpointed the rearward end of the zygomatic arches, and so the earholes. The rearward end of the arches aren't visible from straight on. I've had more toruble with bulls than narrow faced cows, especially tuskless. With the bulls, it seems that the bulge of the the zygomatic arch below the eye seems to obscure the ends.

Any suggestions? I'm all ears, so to speak. And I'm heading out the 28th to try for a few more eles, both tuskless and one bull.

JPK

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115395 - 24/09/08 10:14 PM

JPK

I am far from an expert on elephant..however I do a fair amount of reading and studying the animal--much more so lately..again, I have referenced the photos in the book NDLOVU quite a bit and feel it has helped substantially..

What has helped me is looking at them from the side--and the relationship of the earhole, zygomatic arch and eye...and then look at them revolving to the front..to get it down where they need to be hit in various head positions...I feel studying this way has helped me somewhat visualize the brain in various positions..it worked this past summer and plan to put it to the test again in the future..GOD willing and the creek don't dry..

Best of luck on your upcoming hunt...look forward to the photos..

Take care and be safe...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: poprivit]
#115403 - 24/09/08 10:34 PM

Quote:

laid there for 10-15 seconds ... then got back up.

I've heard this before quite a few times, but wonder quite honestly why it occurs.

Meaning, in sport hunting as it is done today, is it not reasonable and common to put finishers into an elephant to make sure this doesn't happen?

The fact that we have here this thread and discussion each of those who have experience on elephant admitting difficulty with the brain shot and we know that elephant can be stunned but not killed outright by a shot that looks good from the outside but that misses the brain.

Is it not common to fire finishers into each elephant that goes down, brain shot or not? Or do some hunters not want finishers fired in order to call it a one shot kill all of their own?

{I have no personal experience hunting elephant, only what I came to know from friends who killed many elephants in the Congo many years ago. There, "sport" had nothing to do with it, and they told me every animal that went down was shot again to insure it didn't get up, whether it looked dead or not.}

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras:

9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115407 - 24/09/08 11:23 PM

Oops, one other question for you pachaderm shooters and aficionados:

Bell used the .450/.400, .318, .303, 7x57 and 6.5x54 on elephant, and frequently carried a C96 Mauser shoulder-stocked pistol in 9mm Export caliber along with a ".22 Rook Rifle". Also, kinda cute, he says he thinks his 7mm shot a 200 grain bullet. Like many of that era, he seems not to have been a real gun crank.

He was, however, a specimen of great physical fitness, and tho I can't remember the citation, speaks of constant carry of THE WEAPON HE USED TO SHOOT ELEPHANT as a great contributing factor to his success. Also, lots of "Swedish Drill".

Does anyone know the reference in Bell's works where he cites how many elephant he shot with which caliber? Is there such a reference?

Has anybody here shot an elephant {or more} with a light caliber rifle?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115415 - 25/09/08 01:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

laid there for 10-15 seconds ... then got back up.

I've heard this before quite a few times, but wonder quite honestly why it occurs.

Meaning, in sport hunting as it is done today, is it not reasonable and common to put finishers into an elephant to make sure this doesn't happen?

The fact that we have here this thread and discussion each of those who have experience on elephant admitting difficulty with the brain shot and we know that elephant can be stunned but not killed outright by a shot that looks good from the outside but that misses the brain.

Is it not common to fire finishers into each elephant that goes down, brain shot or not? Or do some hunters not want finishers fired in order to call it a one shot kill all of their own?

{I have no personal experience hunting elephant, only what I came to know from friends who killed many elephants in the Congo many years ago. There, "sport" had nothing to do with it, and they told me every animal that went down was shot again to insure it didn't get up, whether it looked dead or not.}

************
********************************

9.3x57

Funny you mentioned this is as those were my thoughts as well...

Without exception,,,when an animals of the dangerous kind drop--another shot is placed in the animal and is requested immediately by the PH...so not sure how--in todays world that could even happen...called "paying the insurance"...

Ripp

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115420 - 25/09/08 02:33 AM

I certainly agree. I havent had the pleasure of hunting elephant YET, but I think a finishing, or insurance shot is always in order for dangerous game. I consider it a requirement. Not only is my safety at stake, but that of unarmed trackers and everyone present. These men depend not only on the PH, but the client as well to insure a dangerous animal is no longer a danger to anyone. I have only taken two dangerous animals in Africa, but i did insure both were no longer a danger. What cheaper insurance can you buy than a 500 grain solid. If a hunter ommits this step to say he took a dangerous animal with one shot, I personally consider that unethical. Out of respect for a magnificent animal, and the safety of men engaged in MY hunt, you can bet I will always "pay the insurance".

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115473 - 25/09/08 10:28 AM

First, you can tell be how and elephant drops whether you brained it not. When the shot is successful, the rear colapses, the head goes up and then the front gives way.

Sometimes because the elephant was turning or moving prior to the shot, or because of the terrain, etc, it isn't 100% clear.

Also, a brained elephant tends to have a rear leg circumscibing small cirles and likewise the tail. But not a 100% indicator either.

So, no matter whether the elephant dropped like it was brained or dropped front end first, which generally indicates a knock out or knock down with a miss and not a perfect brain shot, the leg is circling, the tail twitching, the elephant should get an insurance shot to the heart/lung area. If that angle isn't available, another to the head. When they aren't moving the brain shot is a heck of a lot easier.

So the 10-15 second thing gets me wondering too.

But there are circumstances that might lead to a second shot being delayed or even unwise. Examples are other elephants coming and bluffing (and you really only know its a bluff after the fact), or elephants looking for you. Who wants an empty gun in these circumstances, or the reverberations of a second shot causing a charge or possible mass charge. Even ejectors can tell an elephant where you are.

So there might be good reason that the second shot was delayed or not made, but not too often, I think.

Old African saying, "Its the dead ones that get you."

JPK

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115480 - 25/09/08 12:25 PM

Good point JPK. Thats where experience pays off. I have much to learn about elephants.

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115525 - 25/09/08 10:48 PM

Quote:

But there are circumstances that might lead to a second shot being delayed or even unwise. Examples are other elephants coming and bluffing (and you really only know its a bluff after the fact), or elephants looking for you. Who wants an empty gun in these circumstances, or the reverberations of a second shot causing a charge or possible mass charge. Even ejectors can tell an elephant where you are.

So there might be good reason that the second shot was delayed or not made, but not too often, I think.

Old African saying, "Its the dead ones that get you." JPK

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The above scenario actually happened to us on the last hunt---I brained the tuskless and immediately another cow came over at a rapid pace..inspected the downed cow for a minute..then walked off a bit--before the trumpeting started by members of the herd...another reason, IMO, that this is so addictive...the interaction you have with the animals before, during and after is second to none...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115527 - 25/09/08 11:00 PM

Well, I hope you all are happy. I have contracted an incureable case of elephant fever from you all! BTW: JPK, good luck and Be safe. Cant wait to hear the details and see the pics when you get back.

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115536 - 26/09/08 01:30 AM

The last two elephants I shot were both rear quartering shots, where I was off to the left of the animal and he was moving to the left. Both shots produced typical brain shot symptoms, but both collapsed on their right side, leaving the "armpit" on the left side exposed. By "armpit" I mean a triangular patch of skin which appears darker than the surrounging area, and which is covered by the foreleg when the leg is extended to the rear in walking. I have been told that this is a reliable aiming point for a heart shot, and a second shot went into this area as quickly as I could work the action and aim at it.

One shot kills are all very well, but if an animal can bite you, claw you, or dismember you, better safe than sorry, and ammunition is cheap compared to a funeral.

Post Extras:

9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: xausa]
#115539 - 26/09/08 01:48 AM

Quote:

One shot kills are all very well, but if an animal can bite you, claw you, or dismember you,

Or even just give you a spook!

I once shot a bull elk in the upper shoulder, lower neck. Critter dropped like a sack of rocks. Almost bounced when he hit the ground.

But when I approached him from behind, what was left of him that worked...rest of his neck and 6x5 horns flew up with a backward sweep and nearly hit me between the knees and hips. I jumped back and he kept swinging. Another one in the base of the head upper neck settled things.

That and a few other incidents prompted me to ask the question about finishers, as when a guy is dealing with a critter that outweighs the trailer houses lived in by most of the folks in my county, I'd think he'd want to iron things out but good.

I do understand the hesitancy of many to ruin meat in game the size of deer, etc, but this obviously is not an issue with any of the big 5, and I'd even include the cats there, since a guy doesn't eat them and any good seamstress can stitch the holes in the hide.

The one that leaves me in limbo is our small black bear. I've had reason to keep shooting them on several occaisions and substantial meat was ruined and maybe unnecessarily, but that was done to make sure no dogs were injured.

I have never given a hoot about "One-Shot Kills" and frankly do not understand those that make a thing of it. It's nice when it happens that way but to have any reason to believe an animal might have enough juice left to split the scene and not give it another is a mystery to me.

I do see the point about circumstances existing where another followup shot might not be able to be made for a bit of time. Have had that occur myself as when a critter drops from view in brush or timber yet still struggles, that not being seen till the animal is approached up close.

Thanks for the answers, fellows!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras:

JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115542 - 26/09/08 02:26 AM

Quote:

Well, I hope you all are happy. I have contracted an incureable case of elephant fever from you all! BTW: JPK, good luck and Be safe. Cant wait to hear the details and see the pics when you get back.

BigMaxx, All,

Had an all night vigil for my dad, who is deing of congestive heart failure. I got a couple of hours of sleep and I'll shower and return shortly. Things don't look good, he is going to pass away anytime now.

Good news; bad news is that he is 82 and has lived a long and excellent life, hasn't had a long period of suffering or low quality of life; bad news is that the rock of Gibraltar - or so he seemed to me and my brothers and sister for so many decades - is going for sure. He has had his Catholic last rights and seems as prepared to leave us as anyone can be. The rest of the family isn't as ready as he is though, me included. I think my mom is bearing up very well, I am sometimes, not so well others, like now. Jeez, I'm blubering like a baby right now.

I've alerted those in Africa and here who are involved. I am about 100% sure I won't be making the Sunday flight. Hopefully sliding the schedule back won't cause too much havoc in others' schedules and lives and I'll fly out after all is done for a needed break.

I'll let you all know when I'm going when I know.

Prayers would be most appreciated.

JPK

Post Extras:

9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115543 - 26/09/08 02:43 AM

Quote:

Prayers would be most appreciated.

JPK

Consider it done.

And from your Catechism:

"The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord for the day of redemption. The faithful Christian who has kept the seal until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life marked with the sign of faith, with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God-the consummation of faith-and the hope of the Resurrection".

As your Priest has ministered, the Seal of the Lord is upon him.

I know your strain. My Mother, a true saint of the Lord Jesus, and same age as your Dad, lies waiting for her consummation of faith as well.

God be with your Dad, and with you and yours.

Rod

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras:

peter
removed

Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115544 - 26/09/08 04:20 AM

jpk

my heart goes out for you and your family, for your fathers sake i pray for it to be a pain and fearless journey, and know that he will be welcomed on the other side by the ones that went before.

from the way that you write about him, he already has made sure that he will be remembered kindly.

Fæ dør
frænde dør
alle skal vi dø
en ting der aldrig dør
er god mands minde

best regards

peter

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115548 - 26/09/08 04:52 AM

JPK

Very sorry to hear of your news...prayers are heading your way..

While it is never easy to say goodbye..the fantastic memeories that you have from 82 years will be with you always...and hopefully one day we will all be Blessed in the Kingdom of the Lord..provided we live as HE has instructed..

Take Care and Be Well.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115549 - 26/09/08 05:02 AM

You and your family are in my prayers buddy. I have lost quite a few family members in the last couple of years. I know how you feel. My dad suffered horribly with cancer for three years. A better place awaits us all. He's with us always. I pray you are strengthened and comforted. God's blessings.

--------------------
One day at a time...

Post Extras:

Charles_Helm
.333 member

Reged: 09/11/05
Posts: 337
Loc: Dallas, Texas

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115559 - 26/09/08 10:54 AM

I'd have to second the recommendation for getting Buzz's first DVD. Mahohboh and Ndlovu are both books that will give you lots more pictures to practice looking at.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

Post Extras:

93mouse
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Slovenia

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115571 - 26/09/08 05:36 PM

Quote:

Keep in mind that the challenge of braining an elephant isn't hitting a =/- 6" oblong disk (frontal) or American football sized target (side) at 10 or 20 yards.

The challenge is hitting that disk when its anywhere from 12" to 3' plus behind the point of impact and moving, likewise that football, though a side brain shot is much easier. The apparent motion of the brain at close quarters is significant. Considerably more significant is the apparent motion of the point of impact on the head for a frontal brain shot when the elephant raises or lowers it's head or turns it's head, especially when the whole of the elephant is also moving.
JPK

JPK well said - a peek into - Ivan Carter & Bodington in latest video - see the preview and JPK's point:

http://www.craigboddington.com/boddington-videos.htm

Post Extras:

bakerb
.224 member

Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 93mouse]
#115603 - 27/09/08 02:12 AM

Sorry to hear about your father JPK. Hang in there

As for everyone else's responses, thanks for all the tips and references to other materials to look at. Ndlovu and Bell's books, as well as Charlton McCallum's video are now on my wish list. Thanks again

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

Post Extras:

bakerb
.224 member

Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
#115614 - 27/09/08 03:53 AM

Dang you guys!!! I too now have the elephant fever extremely bad, and I can't even afford all of the books and videos referenced on this thread. The only dang copy of Ndlovu I could find was on abebooks.com, and was $85, brand new.

Crap, I'll just keep on a-dreamin'

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

Post Extras:

bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bakerb]
#115627 - 27/09/08 06:11 AM

I was lucky enough to pick up Ndlovu from William Finnaughty, a veteran leopard hunter, while in Zimbabwe. His grandfather wrote "Recollections of an Elephant Hunter". Very nice man. He's well into his late seventies and hunts most everyday. He tells some captivating stories. He wrote some very nice things inside the cover of my copy. A trophy in itself, to me anyway. Very good book.

--------------------
One day at a time...

Edited by bigmaxx (27/09/08 07:22 AM)

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115631 - 27/09/08 06:28 AM

Found pictures of a different angle to brain an Elephant--Is this shot placement accurate from the side?

Incidentally,the heart shot looks a bit back to me but the hip shot seems ok.

Of course I have never shot ANY African DG, ele or otherwise.

Other opinions?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (27/09/08 06:32 AM)

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: hoppdoc]
#115632 - 27/09/08 06:41 AM

More head shots--

http://www.grosswildjagd.de/report02.htm#Report02

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: hoppdoc]
#115633 - 27/09/08 06:54 AM

The brain shot is exactly the one I used on my last two elephants.

I agree, the heart shot should probably be a little farther toward the leg. I never tried a hip shot, but I suppose if all else failed....

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: xausa]
#115644 - 27/09/08 08:41 AM

Found a crosssection of elephant skull with the brain shown(note the-b label)

Fascinating!!

Looks like a d*mn hard shot to make especially if you have to shoot up at the animal!!Hit high and you have done nothing but really piss him off!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: hoppdoc]
#115651 - 27/09/08 09:06 AM

Yowsers!! Elephant charge with brain shot--

How to shoot crocs as well!!

http://www.hunterstv.com/zambeziextreme.html

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39245
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: hoppdoc]
#115657 - 27/09/08 12:12 PM

Quote:

Found pictures of a different angle to brain an Elephant--Is this shot placement accurate from the side?

Incidentally,the heart shot looks a bit back to me but the hip shot seems ok.

Of course I have never shot ANY African DG, ele or otherwise.

Other opinions?

They look all good to me. Doesn't mean I would necessarily take them.

The heart shot is compensating for the angle to get in the middle of the elephant - just behind the leg if directly broadside.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)

Extra information

1 registered and 43 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 18220

Jump to

NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact