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poprivit
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Reged: 09/04/07
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115198 - 23/09/08 06:18 AM

My last elephant experience found me putting 750 grains of .577 from one of Mr. Searcy's finest into a brain shot ... that missed the brain by about 1.5 inches. The elephant went straight down ... laid there for 10-15 seconds ... then got back up. Were I to do another elephant from 30 yards, or less, I'd put my first shot from my Ruger .458 Lott into his front shoulder. It's your hunt and your call, but I know a couple of people who have tried the brain shot and not done well. At least the shoulder shot will anchor the animal.

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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115215 - 23/09/08 12:17 PM

Thanks Ripp. I asked a ton of questions and you kind folks were always nice enough to answer. Very grateful for that. Now I am turning my attention to elephants. Lots of good stuff here!

--------------------
One day at a time...

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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115283 - 23/09/08 10:37 PM

Quote:

Now I am turning my attention to elephants. Lots of good stuff here!

AND SO IT BEGINS.....

Ripp...

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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NitroX
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115286 - 23/09/08 10:48 PM

Personally I find most of the dots on the photos are a little too high and the broadside one too far back.

A problem with photos is the lack of perspective. How far away is the elephant? his affects the angle of the shot and how far down or up to shoot. More easier to tell the distance on film or real life.

What I also did was learn the broomstick method of judging where the brain was, and whenever I saw an elephant, at the zoo, on a calendar, on a TV documentary, to practice trying to estimate where the brain was, and where to place the bullet.

Worked well enough to be lucky enough to drop two cows with single frontal brain shots. (plus insurance shots)

***

These two products helped me a lot for my two elephants.

NitroExpress.com has some of these in stock

Out of stock.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: NitroX]
#115289 - 23/09/08 10:55 PM

Quote:

Personally
What I also did was learn the broomstick method of judging where the brain was, and whenever I saw an elephant, at the zoo, on a calendar, on a TV documentary, to practice trying to estimate where the brain was, and where to place the bullet.

Worked well enough to be lucky enough to drop two cows with single frontal brain shots. (plus insurance shots

Agree--the broomstick method works well...I also keep in mind where the eyes are on the elephant in relation to the earholes on a frontal shot..for me anyway..it helps to line things up..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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JPK
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115294 - 23/09/08 11:22 PM

On the "broomstick method", I have had trouble being confident that I had pinpointed the rearward end of the zygomatic arches, and so the earholes. The rearward end of the arches aren't visible from straight on. I've had more toruble with bulls than narrow faced cows, especially tuskless. With the bulls, it seems that the bulge of the the zygomatic arch below the eye seems to obscure the ends.

Any suggestions? I'm all ears, so to speak. And I'm heading out the 28th to try for a few more eles, both tuskless and one bull.

JPK

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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115395 - 24/09/08 10:14 PM

JPK

I am far from an expert on elephant..however I do a fair amount of reading and studying the animal--much more so lately..again, I have referenced the photos in the book NDLOVU quite a bit and feel it has helped substantially..

What has helped me is looking at them from the side--and the relationship of the earhole, zygomatic arch and eye...and then look at them revolving to the front..to get it down where they need to be hit in various head positions...I feel studying this way has helped me somewhat visualize the brain in various positions..it worked this past summer and plan to put it to the test again in the future..GOD willing and the creek don't dry..

Best of luck on your upcoming hunt...look forward to the photos..

Take care and be safe...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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9.3x57
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: poprivit]
#115403 - 24/09/08 10:34 PM

Quote:

laid there for 10-15 seconds ... then got back up.

I've heard this before quite a few times, but wonder quite honestly why it occurs.

Meaning, in sport hunting as it is done today, is it not reasonable and common to put finishers into an elephant to make sure this doesn't happen?

The fact that we have here this thread and discussion each of those who have experience on elephant admitting difficulty with the brain shot and we know that elephant can be stunned but not killed outright by a shot that looks good from the outside but that misses the brain.

Is it not common to fire finishers into each elephant that goes down, brain shot or not? Or do some hunters not want finishers fired in order to call it a one shot kill all of their own?

{I have no personal experience hunting elephant, only what I came to know from friends who killed many elephants in the Congo many years ago. There, "sport" had nothing to do with it, and they told me every animal that went down was shot again to insure it didn't get up, whether it looked dead or not.}

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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9.3x57
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115407 - 24/09/08 11:23 PM

Oops, one other question for you pachaderm shooters and aficionados:

Bell used the .450/.400, .318, .303, 7x57 and 6.5x54 on elephant, and frequently carried a C96 Mauser shoulder-stocked pistol in 9mm Export caliber along with a ".22 Rook Rifle". Also, kinda cute, he says he thinks his 7mm shot a 200 grain bullet. Like many of that era, he seems not to have been a real gun crank.

He was, however, a specimen of great physical fitness, and tho I can't remember the citation, speaks of constant carry of THE WEAPON HE USED TO SHOOT ELEPHANT as a great contributing factor to his success. Also, lots of "Swedish Drill".

Does anyone know the reference in Bell's works where he cites how many elephant he shot with which caliber? Is there such a reference?

Has anybody here shot an elephant {or more} with a light caliber rifle?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115415 - 25/09/08 01:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

laid there for 10-15 seconds ... then got back up.

I've heard this before quite a few times, but wonder quite honestly why it occurs.

Meaning, in sport hunting as it is done today, is it not reasonable and common to put finishers into an elephant to make sure this doesn't happen?

The fact that we have here this thread and discussion each of those who have experience on elephant admitting difficulty with the brain shot and we know that elephant can be stunned but not killed outright by a shot that looks good from the outside but that misses the brain.

Is it not common to fire finishers into each elephant that goes down, brain shot or not? Or do some hunters not want finishers fired in order to call it a one shot kill all of their own?

{I have no personal experience hunting elephant, only what I came to know from friends who killed many elephants in the Congo many years ago. There, "sport" had nothing to do with it, and they told me every animal that went down was shot again to insure it didn't get up, whether it looked dead or not.}

************
********************************

9.3x57

Funny you mentioned this is as those were my thoughts as well...

Without exception,,,when an animals of the dangerous kind drop--another shot is placed in the animal and is requested immediately by the PH...so not sure how--in todays world that could even happen...called "paying the insurance"...

Ripp

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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bigmaxx
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Reged: 13/06/07
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Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115420 - 25/09/08 02:33 AM

I certainly agree. I havent had the pleasure of hunting elephant YET, but I think a finishing, or insurance shot is always in order for dangerous game. I consider it a requirement. Not only is my safety at stake, but that of unarmed trackers and everyone present. These men depend not only on the PH, but the client as well to insure a dangerous animal is no longer a danger to anyone. I have only taken two dangerous animals in Africa, but i did insure both were no longer a danger. What cheaper insurance can you buy than a 500 grain solid. If a hunter ommits this step to say he took a dangerous animal with one shot, I personally consider that unethical. Out of respect for a magnificent animal, and the safety of men engaged in MY hunt, you can bet I will always "pay the insurance".

--------------------
One day at a time...

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JPK
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115473 - 25/09/08 10:28 AM

First, you can tell be how and elephant drops whether you brained it not. When the shot is successful, the rear colapses, the head goes up and then the front gives way.

Sometimes because the elephant was turning or moving prior to the shot, or because of the terrain, etc, it isn't 100% clear.

Also, a brained elephant tends to have a rear leg circumscibing small cirles and likewise the tail. But not a 100% indicator either.

So, no matter whether the elephant dropped like it was brained or dropped front end first, which generally indicates a knock out or knock down with a miss and not a perfect brain shot, the leg is circling, the tail twitching, the elephant should get an insurance shot to the heart/lung area. If that angle isn't available, another to the head. When they aren't moving the brain shot is a heck of a lot easier.

So the 10-15 second thing gets me wondering too.

But there are circumstances that might lead to a second shot being delayed or even unwise. Examples are other elephants coming and bluffing (and you really only know its a bluff after the fact), or elephants looking for you. Who wants an empty gun in these circumstances, or the reverberations of a second shot causing a charge or possible mass charge. Even ejectors can tell an elephant where you are.

So there might be good reason that the second shot was delayed or not made, but not too often, I think.

Old African saying, "Its the dead ones that get you."

JPK

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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115480 - 25/09/08 12:25 PM

Good point JPK. Thats where experience pays off. I have much to learn about elephants.

--------------------
One day at a time...

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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115525 - 25/09/08 10:48 PM

Quote:

But there are circumstances that might lead to a second shot being delayed or even unwise. Examples are other elephants coming and bluffing (and you really only know its a bluff after the fact), or elephants looking for you. Who wants an empty gun in these circumstances, or the reverberations of a second shot causing a charge or possible mass charge. Even ejectors can tell an elephant where you are.

So there might be good reason that the second shot was delayed or not made, but not too often, I think.

Old African saying, "Its the dead ones that get you." JPK

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The above scenario actually happened to us on the last hunt---I brained the tuskless and immediately another cow came over at a rapid pace..inspected the downed cow for a minute..then walked off a bit--before the trumpeting started by members of the herd...another reason, IMO, that this is so addictive...the interaction you have with the animals before, during and after is second to none...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115527 - 25/09/08 11:00 PM

Well, I hope you all are happy. I have contracted an incureable case of elephant fever from you all! BTW: JPK, good luck and Be safe. Cant wait to hear the details and see the pics when you get back.

--------------------
One day at a time...

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xausa
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115536 - 26/09/08 01:30 AM

The last two elephants I shot were both rear quartering shots, where I was off to the left of the animal and he was moving to the left. Both shots produced typical brain shot symptoms, but both collapsed on their right side, leaving the "armpit" on the left side exposed. By "armpit" I mean a triangular patch of skin which appears darker than the surrounging area, and which is covered by the foreleg when the leg is extended to the rear in walking. I have been told that this is a reliable aiming point for a heart shot, and a second shot went into this area as quickly as I could work the action and aim at it.

One shot kills are all very well, but if an animal can bite you, claw you, or dismember you, better safe than sorry, and ammunition is cheap compared to a funeral.

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9.3x57
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: xausa]
#115539 - 26/09/08 01:48 AM

Quote:

One shot kills are all very well, but if an animal can bite you, claw you, or dismember you,

Or even just give you a spook!

I once shot a bull elk in the upper shoulder, lower neck. Critter dropped like a sack of rocks. Almost bounced when he hit the ground.

But when I approached him from behind, what was left of him that worked...rest of his neck and 6x5 horns flew up with a backward sweep and nearly hit me between the knees and hips. I jumped back and he kept swinging. Another one in the base of the head upper neck settled things.

That and a few other incidents prompted me to ask the question about finishers, as when a guy is dealing with a critter that outweighs the trailer houses lived in by most of the folks in my county, I'd think he'd want to iron things out but good.

I do understand the hesitancy of many to ruin meat in game the size of deer, etc, but this obviously is not an issue with any of the big 5, and I'd even include the cats there, since a guy doesn't eat them and any good seamstress can stitch the holes in the hide.

The one that leaves me in limbo is our small black bear. I've had reason to keep shooting them on several occaisions and substantial meat was ruined and maybe unnecessarily, but that was done to make sure no dogs were injured.

I have never given a hoot about "One-Shot Kills" and frankly do not understand those that make a thing of it. It's nice when it happens that way but to have any reason to believe an animal might have enough juice left to split the scene and not give it another is a mystery to me.

I do see the point about circumstances existing where another followup shot might not be able to be made for a bit of time. Have had that occur myself as when a critter drops from view in brush or timber yet still struggles, that not being seen till the animal is approached up close.

Thanks for the answers, fellows!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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JPK
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: bigmaxx]
#115542 - 26/09/08 02:26 AM

Quote:

Well, I hope you all are happy. I have contracted an incureable case of elephant fever from you all! BTW: JPK, good luck and Be safe. Cant wait to hear the details and see the pics when you get back.

BigMaxx, All,

Had an all night vigil for my dad, who is deing of congestive heart failure. I got a couple of hours of sleep and I'll shower and return shortly. Things don't look good, he is going to pass away anytime now.

Good news; bad news is that he is 82 and has lived a long and excellent life, hasn't had a long period of suffering or low quality of life; bad news is that the rock of Gibraltar - or so he seemed to me and my brothers and sister for so many decades - is going for sure. He has had his Catholic last rights and seems as prepared to leave us as anyone can be. The rest of the family isn't as ready as he is though, me included. I think my mom is bearing up very well, I am sometimes, not so well others, like now. Jeez, I'm blubering like a baby right now.

I've alerted those in Africa and here who are involved. I am about 100% sure I won't be making the Sunday flight. Hopefully sliding the schedule back won't cause too much havoc in others' schedules and lives and I'll fly out after all is done for a needed break.

I'll let you all know when I'm going when I know.

Prayers would be most appreciated.

JPK

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9.3x57
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115543 - 26/09/08 02:43 AM

Quote:

Prayers would be most appreciated.

JPK

Consider it done.

And from your Catechism:

"The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord for the day of redemption. The faithful Christian who has kept the seal until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life marked with the sign of faith, with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God-the consummation of faith-and the hope of the Resurrection".

As your Priest has ministered, the Seal of the Lord is upon him.

I know your strain. My Mother, a true saint of the Lord Jesus, and same age as your Dad, lies waiting for her consummation of faith as well.

God be with your Dad, and with you and yours.

Rod

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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peter
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 9.3x57]
#115544 - 26/09/08 04:20 AM

jpk

my heart goes out for you and your family, for your fathers sake i pray for it to be a pain and fearless journey, and know that he will be welcomed on the other side by the ones that went before.

from the way that you write about him, he already has made sure that he will be remembered kindly.

Fæ dør
frænde dør
alle skal vi dø
en ting der aldrig dør
er god mands minde

best regards

peter

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Ripp
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115548 - 26/09/08 04:52 AM

JPK

Very sorry to hear of your news...prayers are heading your way..

While it is never easy to say goodbye..the fantastic memeories that you have from 82 years will be with you always...and hopefully one day we will all be Blessed in the Kingdom of the Lord..provided we live as HE has instructed..

Take Care and Be Well.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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bigmaxx
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115549 - 26/09/08 05:02 AM

You and your family are in my prayers buddy. I have lost quite a few family members in the last couple of years. I know how you feel. My dad suffered horribly with cancer for three years. A better place awaits us all. He's with us always. I pray you are strengthened and comforted. God's blessings.

--------------------
One day at a time...

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Charles_Helm
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: Ripp]
#115559 - 26/09/08 10:54 AM

I'd have to second the recommendation for getting Buzz's first DVD. Mahohboh and Ndlovu are both books that will give you lots more pictures to practice looking at.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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93mouse
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: JPK]
#115571 - 26/09/08 05:36 PM

Quote:

Keep in mind that the challenge of braining an elephant isn't hitting a =/- 6" oblong disk (frontal) or American football sized target (side) at 10 or 20 yards.

The challenge is hitting that disk when its anywhere from 12" to 3' plus behind the point of impact and moving, likewise that football, though a side brain shot is much easier. The apparent motion of the brain at close quarters is significant. Considerably more significant is the apparent motion of the point of impact on the head for a frontal brain shot when the elephant raises or lowers it's head or turns it's head, especially when the whole of the elephant is also moving.
JPK

JPK well said - a peek into - Ivan Carter & Bodington in latest video - see the preview and JPK's point:

http://www.craigboddington.com/boddington-videos.htm

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bakerb
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Re: Elephant brain shot placement (with pics) [Re: 93mouse]
#115603 - 27/09/08 02:12 AM

Sorry to hear about your father JPK. Hang in there

As for everyone else's responses, thanks for all the tips and references to other materials to look at. Ndlovu and Bell's books, as well as Charlton McCallum's video are now on my wish list. Thanks again

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

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